dumb question of the day for "racers"

[kfm61]

I have only missed one or two races since 2004. Racing is a priority for me. I spend more money, time and effort than I should so I can fulfill my obligation as a "Grid Filler"! I'm not addicted, I can quit any time, I just don't want to!

I faced the same challenges as others racers, our wedding was planned around a race weekend, (She is a great wife!). Our anniversary was spent on a race weekend, and we're re-financing our house.

Through all this I still manage to plan enough money and plan family stuff to allow me to race. In fact, my step-daughter will be with us at the next race while she's home from collage. ( I trained her to like motorcycles!)

I understand that priorities change as life goes on, but the ability to adapt to changing economic and life changes keeps the stress level low. I will be racing 3 classes for the last races, I just need to stay away from Jeff and Marty and their tag team act!

[DarkKnight]

My situation is like most others. After changing jobs 2 1/2 years ago (not by choice), I still make 25% less then I did before the move. Im doing a bit better than pay check to pay check but there are weeks when racing gets pushed down on the priority list. I had planned to make it a full season but life had other ideas. I am planning on being at all the remaining HPR races.

[benfoxmra95]

It's just too much money these days.....

I saw it coming for the last 3 or 4 years. That's why I made the switch to the yamaha and even still that was only a band aid on the wallet for a year or two. racing an inline isn't cheap anymore either.

This year and last year the amount of money being thrown at the twins class is just ri-goddamn-diculous in my opinion.
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In 1996 I bought a new gsxr 750 from Apex:

96 gsxr 750 $8000
exhaust $750
race tech vavles and springs for $275
used shock for $350
jet kit for $79
race body work for $450.
rear sets $175

Take off tires: $75 a set every 3 weekends

Total $10,154
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2000 started racing ducatis bought a new 748 from fay myers:

99 748 new from fay myers $11500
ohlins shock $650
Fork revavle $275
piston kit $450
rods $525
exhaust $1200
body work $850
rear sets $145

New michelins every race weekend $430 a set

$16,025
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2007 bought an R1 from Apex

07 r1 $12500
body work $750
full exhaust $1800
shock $1350
fork cartridges $999
kit harness and ecu $1700
rear sets $675
clip ons $275
brembo brake master $275

New Dunlops (2 sets) every weekend $925 (2 classes slicks/dots)

Total $20624

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Time warp to 2009 to be competative on the grid and not race for 13th

2008 1098r $39k
pistons $850
exhaust cams $1250
shock $1450
fork revalve $750
brembo brake master $325
triple clamps $500
ecu $1650
bodywork $1400
swing arm $3500
radiator $4200
full exhaust system $4200

New dunlops every weekend $500 (depending on how fast you are more likely you need two sets per weekend because this bike eats rear tires)

Total $59,575..... :shock:

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Anyone see a trend here? costs are going up at a exponential rate.

The figures above are way on the low side.... there's way more things that go with the complete packages to get the rubber to meet the road. I just listed some of the most basic stuff and it's costs to put the trend into perspective, also notice there's no labor for this stuff, no dyno tuning, no shop fees from a major bike shop here in colorado. you throw labor in the mix because the average guys doens't know how to or want to revalve his forks or degree his cams, then the shit goes into a low earth orbit circling around citi/chase/amex/discover.

I estimate, you need around $80k for a competative ducati. around $30k for a competative 1000cc bike.

Why im pulling back, is for several reasons:

1. It's too effing much money to race competatively, and if your a real racer at heart, you don't want to go out on low level equipment or on shagged tires and race for 13th place. plus you need to practice, and practice fees are just too much for me to cough up these days. your looking at about $675 just for a good practice day, that includes fuel for the bike and truck, entry fees, food, and tires. You do a $700 practice day on a monday 4 days before a $1500 race weekend and this is no longer a cheap sport to try and run up front at. I mean you can easily spend $6000 a month on racing every other weekend. So I think the costs getting out of hand on this and have run off true hard core racers like myself becuase we can see what it takes to get to the level where we can be racing at and its just too large a monetary battle, the bar's been raised too high by a small majority of people who have the ability to spend alot of money.

2. I've had 11 really good years of racing with my friends and I realized that's there's more places to travel in this world than just pueblo and denver. I want to see more of the earth, and chasing a trophy at the end of a 11 race weekend series is just not how I want to spend any more summers. There's a lot of people out there that know what I mean here. I fully remember the pain of many long summers, where by race 8 your like Eff me, I wish it was over at 9, but there still 3 more.

3. Well we all had a small wake up call last year. nuff said there.


I don't think this is the perfect storm year.....I think this has been a few years in the making, I've seen a gradual decline since 04 in the race day grids.

Don't take this personally, but the guys out there with the money are making it harder and harder for the guys who don't have it. I see it maybe turning kinda elitest. again...don't take it the wrong way, if you got money you worked hard for it and you deserve to spend it how you please. but it is straining the people without it because they feel beaten before they even throw a leg over.

back a few years I took a ducati 996 that i spent around $16k on(total including the bike) and won some races in the twin class. If I brought out that bike on the grid at the next hpr race, I would have my ass handed to me in a nicely wrapped gift box with a card saying "lol"......

I wish it wasn't the case but It's just the way the food chain works.

[benfoxmra95]

.....

[akuretz]

I joined the club in 2003 and didn't miss a race for 5 seasons. Last year I did the first two rounds and then had family conflicts, new house, and job change so missed a couple rounds. Once the season was completely lost some of the appeal of finishing out the season was gone. Putting the whole season together to finish as best I can has always made racing more exciting for me.

This year we've got our 2nd kid due in 2-3 weeks, Lynn got laid off a few months ago, and the time and finances just haven't been there for me to put together a full season. And to be honest, the idea of an 11 round (10 weekend) season made that even harder.

With two kids, I just don't know if I'll be able to put together a full season again in the near future unless something changes financially for us. I miss the camaraderie of the club and the racing very much, and was hoping to at least make an endurance round or two this season. With kid 2 due the same weekend as the next HPR I don't believe I'll be able to make that one.

[benfoxmra95]

screwed up double post...woops

[benfoxmra95]

This year we've got our 2nd kid due in 2-3 weeks, Lynn got laid off a few months ago, and the time and finances just haven't been there for me to put together a full season. And to be honest, the idea of an 11 round (10 weekend) season made that even harder.

THis is exactly what im talking about. doing only a few races this season didn't even factor in his outlook on it..... he said the idea of a 11 race "SEASON" made it harder.

This goes with what i was saying about trying to tailor the club a little more to the one off weekend racers. not the long haul riders, who do have the resources, but again there's obviously not enough long haul riders to suppport the club.

They have in their minds "the whole season" and then disimissed racing all together if they can't do a "FULL" season, It's either the the whole thing or nothing. You look at the schedule and see 11 weekends and go eff me, i can't afford it all, so what's the point of even doing any of it because my grid positions will suck because I won't have any points, i won't get the trophy at the end of the season, so im staying home.

if your wondering what im talking about go read my thread on qualifying.....

[gixxermike]

I joined the club in mid season 2004 raced I think the last 3 rounds, raced all of the 2005 season. Then there was 2006 and I was in Honduras for the year. Came back in 2007 sold the bike and had a baby, bought the bike back, and an R6 spent the year prepping it to only race the last round at pueblo. Raced all of 2008 except the last two rounds didnt want someone to do something stupid and break my elbow as someone helped me do in the only round i raced in 07 so I couldnt take my new job in Iraq. Leading us to 2009 where I'm currently in Iraq and good chance I'll miss next season as well, b/c I wont leave here until i get a job back there and we all know how long that might take. I just wanna race!!!

[longrider]

I am going to toss out a couple things as a former racer (very former ) The escalating cost thing has been going on forever, I quit racing 25 years ago when it got to the point that you could no longer be competitive (you're going to laugh at this) by safety prepping your street bike and bring it to the track. I continued to work the races in various positions (equipment manager, starter, track marshal) until about '95 and watched it get worse. Fast forward to last year when a friend started racing and I come back to the track and can't believe what it takes to be competitive. Unfortunately I dont have an answer to this as money will always buy speed.

My other idea comes from the local motocross scene, I honestly dont know if this would help or hurt attendance. Until this year if you were going for points/championship you had to race the entire 18-20 race season. This year 9 or 10 of the races are set as championship series and the rest are just for that day. This allows people who just want to race for fun (you still get your trophy or purse) to just race one day with no issues, if you want to go for the championship you only have to race 10 races, or if you want you can race every weekend. Gate pick (the equivalent of grid position) is done by random draw so that penalty is removed for not racing every day. What are your opinions on a system like this??

[Ashli]

Don't get me wrong -- money is always a huge issue for everyone every year.

It just seems like this year is the "perfect storm" and is effecting most everyone more than it has in years previous and I am curious why. Racers are generally a pretty crafty bunch and do whatever it takes to make the grid.

The only reason Dave raced the last two seasons is because of how "crafty" we were, more so him... working tons and tons of overtime... just like everyone else in this economy, jobs were cut, and overtime was cut for him. Sometimes you just have to be a grown up and make a grown up descision to put your expensive hobby aside until you get your finances straight again. It's obvious that we weren't the only ones who had to do this this year. It's very unfortunate we didn't have enough racers in the MRA to keep it going strong this season, because we were really looking forward to coming back. I hope you guys can make a miracle happen so your season isn't cut short!

[froth]

Ashli: Nicely stated, and we miss having you two around. The whole having to make adult decisions sucks at times.

[rforsythe]

So to ponder on Ben's post, because it IS goddamn expensive...

More than a couple times on this forum and CSC, the topic of a low-money spec-type class has come up. Instead of having to drop crazy money just to be competitive cause the guy next to you did it, you run essentially stock bikes and see who's the better rider, and not who can ring up the best AMEX bill. I'd still be in the back of that pack, but there might be more folks in front of me too.

Before someone comes on here telling me "well fast guys need all that shit to go fast", I watch Jason DiSalvo get on an old R6 at R2SL VIR last summer that he had never ridden before (and on the south course, which he had never even seen until then), with minimal cool bits even by club standards, and the suspension bottoming out to the stops every time he got on the brakes. Within 3 laps he was turning the fastest times of anyone in the paddock, even up against guys on fire breathing liter bikes. We tweaked the suspension for him just so he'd have some play and not blow the seals out, and his times got faster. The bike wasn't stock, but wasn't too far from it either.

So what if we could entice folks egos a bit to come out and see how they do when the equipment is all the same, and the racing is comparatively a whole lot cheaper than it was before? This would also entice NEW RACERS (something this club needs badly) since they wouldn't feel the need to go drop $5K in crap just to go fast in a real race.

The exponential cost increases of this sport are, at least in some way, our own fault. We've all allowed this "spend it before we race it" mentality to grow to the point that the racing almost starts at your wallet now. Yes stuff also just costs more, but is all that really necessary to go fast and have fun (kinda the point to all this)? I don't think so. I also think if we could bring the whole cost of the experience back down to mortal levels, some of the riders who just can't pull that kind of debt load might come back to play. If nothing else it might bring in some new riders.

It could also still be something nobody gives a crap about, which is fine too. I still think it's worth putting out there for discussion though.

[Scored51]

It's just too much money these days.....

New dunlops every weekend $500 (depending on how fast you are more likely you need two sets per weekend because this bike eats rear tires)

Total $59,575..... :shock:

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This is the perfect example of "You Spent How Much??!!!", and the classes that Ralph writes about are already in existence with the MRA. I ride an SV650 (borrowed... Thanks you Fred Roth and Associated General Hardwood Flooring) that was bought for $2,500. Bodywork, paint, and flatslide carburetors bring the total investment to $4,000. There's a savings of $55,575. Additionally, the tires have run all season (God bless Michelin) less the two rounds I missed, but they were also used when I started riding them.

If you want to go cheaper there is always Colorado Class on EX500, GS500, Hawk GT's, and a plethora of single cylinder combos and SUMO's. Heck, there was a nicely prepped GS500 listed here for $1200. I don't no if anyone local bought it, but it hasn't shown up on the grids.

There are also SO MANY WAYS to save running costs during the weekend. Camping and cooking at the track instead of heading out to a restaurant and hotel. This saves not only on lodging and food money, but also on fuel costs driving back and forth from the track. Driving from Denver out to HPR and spending the night at home costs the same in fuel as driving to Pueblo. And how many times have I heard Pueblo is too far? Hooking up into teams to share consolidate equipment and running costs can also be a tremendous help.

It may not be possible for everyone to race all the time, but Ashli is dead right about being crafty. When Hoopty showed up with a Mod Vin bike I thought that's a shame he doesn't get to run with the big dogs, but what an AMAZING season he ran against Tony. It was the closest contested championship that year!

Just my thoughts...

[Sprtbkbabe]

...So what if we could entice folks egos a bit to come out and see how they do when the equipment is all the same, and the racing is comparatively a whole lot cheaper than it was before? This would also entice NEW RACERS (something this club needs badly) since they wouldn't feel the need to go drop $5K in crap just to go fast in a real race.
...I also think if we could bring the whole cost of the experience back down to mortal levels, some of the riders who just can't pull that kind of debt load might come back to play. If nothing else it might bring in some new riders.

Exactly! I have a couple of friends who took the MRA class this year, yet can't get past the costs of beginning entry requirements they need to prep their bikes, etc... along with coming out to watch the races, they are intimidated by all of the $30K+ trailers, rows of back up bikes that roll in off those trailers, and most importantly, the competitive upgrades that they FEEL they need to compete with ya crazy bastards!

Sure, some novices get involved and come into the club just to say they raced or are doing it because it was a step up from track days. But, the ones who stayed (like me) are either doing it because they want to stick with it, improve and enjoy the club and are finding ways in their finances to make it affordable. Or, they can afford all the trick bits while they still have a job and don't mind filing bankruptcy down the road (eek!)

[glenngsxr]

Although I agree the money required to get the trick parts is crazy expensive, I do not want to see the club go towards the DMG supersport crap rules. It is important to keep innovation and the need to "find another tenth" in this game. In reality, we all chase the clock and in this battle we test ourselves as well. This is the rush that keeps us coming back for more. Many people leave once they stop making progress on their lap times. I say lap times and not finishing position because if you finish 4th in a race of 4, you still finished last. I hit a wall last year and it has made me nearly want to quit. I could do 35's at Pueblo and can now only manage 37's for some reason. It is at this point people leave and create natural attrition.

I have always told people that at the club level(with the exception of the Brads, Clarkie's and Turpins) that there is nothing you cannot make up with skill. You don't have to build a screamer motor to win races at the club level. It is natural for humans to want to "keep up with the Jones'" and you can see it at the track.

I say we give the qualifying a try at the next round. If we need people to volunteer to come down to the race day office and manually set the grids based off times, then so be it. Glenn #62

[racedk6]

Considering you dont need the fastest of newest machines to run top 5 in any of the Novice or Amateur classes the price issue isnt as bad as it would be for the faster expert guys.

Look at the top finishers in all the NOV and AM classes. None of them have super trick race bikes. I have run both AMU and AMO all year and only finished out of the top 5 twice all year on basically a stock bike.

What im trying to get at is, you can run up front in any NOV or AM class with practically a stock bike.

[grant_me_rev's]

1996
Total $10,154
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2000
$16,025
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2007
Total $20624
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2009 to be competative on the grid and not race for 13th
Total $59,575

Oh my f’n god, those figures sounds so unreal Ben. :shock:

i moved out of state (sheila too) to a far away land / other world, that offers year round riding + many race / track opportunities but can’t participate cause of a lasik eye surgery gone dramatically wrong (a procedure attempted to enhance my race opportunity not expunge it) A failed attempt in doing a track day to see if I can ‘ride around the eye sight issue’ and not long into the session went off roading, not a big deal but over the fact that it was because an arbitrary cloud that shaded a small portion of the track and i wasn't able to differentiate the pavement/track configuration was a big deal to me. So as much as money and time can be a factor, all I want to do is spend my time and money on racing. Miss u guys and galz.

[Lurch]

Dave I haven't been back because I'm tried of the BS.

[glenngsxr]

Dave I haven't been back because I'm tried of the BS.

Now here's a quote for the ages. Really helpful.

[dave.gallant]

Dave I haven't been back because I'm tried of the BS.

Now here's a quote for the ages. Really helpful.

That opinion is perfectly valid, and Lurch is not the only one to express it.

[benfoxmra95]

Considering you dont need the fastest of newest machines to run top 5 in any of the Novice or Amateur classes the price issue isnt as bad as it would be for the faster expert guys.

Look at the top finishers in all the NOV and AM classes. None of them have super trick race bikes. I have run both AMU and AMO all year and only finished out of the top 5 twice all year on basically a stock bike.

What im trying to get at is, you can run up front in any NOV or AM class with practically a stock bike.

agreed......but.... what happens when that novice racer finishes 3rd in the nov championships?

he gets kicked "up" to the expert grids, where he'll be posed a very expensive question.... if I want to continue to race for 3rd position, then Im going to have to bring a bucket of cash.

Again this is why we lose some novices, they do good in nov....then try a hand at expert and see what it really takes to compete on the wallet level and then leave.

This isn't the case for everyone, some people are content running top ten, some aren't some cant' whatever......

Trying to eliminate some of the novice turnover rate would help the club, and this is just one area i see that could be improved upon as far as "keeping" racers....

Glenn made a comment above about DMG spec supersport, blah blah whatever. I fully disagree, there's closer racing than ever in the AMA now, it's not just mladin running away every weekend. have you watched a 600 race in the ama? it's anybodys win if they want it bad enough.

When you bring the bikes closer in spec to each other the racing will be better, it will be cheaper, and those two things alone will drive up entrys and specators. its quite simple people want to see racers dicing it up they want to see a pack of ten guys go back and forth lap after lap.

[dave.gallant]

I have said this many times:

I will race a shopping cart if I can get a clean heads up race with someone. I don't really care anymore what I am racing as long as it is competitive. I will do the rest...

[Scored51]

Dave - Fred and Associated General have informed me that in addition to the loan of the SV650 to me, he is willing to fully sponsor a dual track Target v. Walmart series! He also states, "Kmart, King Sooper's, and Safeway carts are eligible. Still in negotiations with the drunk at the corner of 14th and Clermont for an Albertson's unit."

[froth]

Dave, good news. I think I've "aquired" some of the really neat carts with the plastic cab and steering wheels in the front. Never mind the kids yowling about having to sit in the seat near the push handle and Mom, we can't hear them from the track.

Now, back to the reality of trying to keep the season and next going.

[Lurch]

Dave I haven't been back because I'm tried of the BS.

Now here's a quote for the ages. Really helpful.

Like Obama says (though it hasn't help the US maybe it will help the MRA) It's time for Change.