2015 Rulebook Suggestions

[TRK]

A lot of these discussions are more on the procedural side of things as opposed to the "rules. We will discuss them at the rule book meeting, but I am going to differentiate betweent the two.

thanks,
mojam

[scott_tiller]

FYI, we already have a rule for multiple red flags.............it is in the rule book.

I know that Shannon, but I was replying to the suggestion that the race get called at the second red flag.
As I read it, it is the Track Marshals decision to keep going with the race or move it to the end of the day.

[TRK]

Yup, and I agree with you. We go to the race track to race, and I would be pretty pissed too, if someone crashed going I to turn one first lap two starts in a row and my day was over. That is why the rulebook is worded the way it is, if the TM or board thinks cooler heads will prevail he can move the race to the need of the day. I firmly believe we all show up to race and should be afforded every opportunity to do so.

[MikeinDenver]

I think it's a good idea for ROR, BUT, the problem is getting corner workers to see who the leaders are and getting the flag up. Some of the corner workers just see bikes going by and wouldn't know which is which. So maybe that's a Chris decision on whether or not we would do that. I think it would be a cool thing and I know I'd be able to figure that out, especially for ROR, but some people couldn't and it would be inconsistent. Maybe on Sunday we have the most consistant workers in certain corners throughout the track that would be willing to throw a blue flag and announce those corners in the rider's meeting for Sunday so the ROR guys will know where to look for them if they are about to be lapped.

I have wondered about this myself. Watching F1 blue flags are going all the time. Having worked all three tracks this year(my first year) I think some tracks would be easier to do this on than others. HPR corners can't see much if any of the track beyond their section. I would think it would require either tracking equipment at the corners or maybe a separate radio channel with one person at the corner pretty much dedicated to that, working with the rest so they knew whom to blue flag. I like the idea but I think it would be difficult to implement reliably.

We need a live timing app like the F1 app.

[nobasin]

Yup, and I agree with you. We go to the race track to race, and I would be pretty pissed too, if someone crashed going I to turn one first lap two starts in a row and my day was over. That is why the rulebook is worded the way it is, if the TM or board thinks cooler heads will prevail he can move the race to the need of the day. I firmly believe we all show up to race and should be afforded every opportunity to do so.

scott and shannon, all good points and i understand that perspective. but again, supersport and endurance racers end up being penalized because of the time taken for multiple starts in what is typically the first race of the day. so maybe a potential solution would something in between the current rule and my original proposal where after the 2nd red flag the race automatically gets moved to the end of the day, unless the red flags both happen on lap one, where there is likely still time to do a 3rd restart and not make every subsequent race during the day way behind schedule. another option would be to have a max time limit that a regular sprint race can run. so lets say 30 minutes for a novice sprint race at hpr...the clock starts at the first green light, and you've got 30 minutes max to complete the race. so if you red flag on lap 2 after 5 minutes, there's a restart. if the 2nd restart red flags after 5 minutes (or anything <= half that laps), it can get a thrid restart but will be set to a number of laps approximately equal to time remaining. this would prevent what should be a 15 minute race (at hpr) going any longer than 30 minutes. this way multiple red flags still allow the race to happen, non crashing racers aren't unduly penalized, and at worst, the first race of the day would only set back the schedule by 15 minutes max. the track marshall and board could still have the discretion to move the race to the end of the day if they wanted as well so that option still exists.

my goal with this discussion is to figure out a way to not have endurance races cut down by 1/3 of their allotted time because of crashes earlier in the day as well as make sure all racers have the best opportunity to get some good racing in as shannon mentioned.

[TRK]

IMO weather has been the big factor, not red flags. Plus we need to give the track marshal and the board flexibility to the proper thing, making things automatic never seems to work very well. Too much shit happens. We will discuss in November, but I firmly believe what we are doing works.

[The GECCO]

Blue Flags in ROR [/COLOR]- I've brought the blue flag up before and got some heat that this was a bad idea because many riders aren't experienced enough to safely get out of the way. Fair enough, but in ROR every rider should be experienced enough to see where the lap traffic is and try to stay out of the way. I've seen some close calls, and a couple bad accidents, due to lap traffic in a heated ROR race.

Blue flags are a bad idea. The safest way for a pass to happen is it the person getting passed never sees it coming. The problem with the blue flag is that no matter how "good" or "bad" the lapped rider is, there's always the potential for a problem when someone intentionally goes off line. I watched Eric Bostrom (leading) get pushed off the track at PPIR by a rider who was shown the blue flag and moved over....right to where Bostrom was already committed to make the pass. If there was no flag, the pass would have been incident free. Traffic is a part of racing.

The other problem is deciding who earns the privilege of the blue flag? Obviously lappers being passed by the leader would get it, but what about when 2nd place comes through? Or 3rd? or 10th? Why should some riders get an "assist" with traffic and others not?

It should never be anyone's job to get out of the way. As the overtaking rider, it's your responsibility to make a safe and appropriate pass, whether it's a lapper or for position. If you catch someone mid-corner and get held up, that's racing.

Lastly, as much as I love the workers, virtually none of them are even close to being experienced enough to know when to display the flag, and we don't have the ability to have a central "control" person advising them when to display it.

If this is purely an RoR thing, perhaps the best way to solve it is to lower the threshold to 107% and make it a RULE rather than a recommendation. The reason I say 107% is that if the RoR winner runs 14 laps and the lapper runs 13, that's roughly a 7% difference. Obviously that goes out the window for a track as short as PPIR, but it's a place to start.

[DOUBLE A]

I would like suggest we go back to the 36, 32, 29 .... point structure as it was before the current points structure of 60, 50, 42 ... etc.

[TD675]

Would changing the format of the start of a race be a rule or procedural? Where can we suggest procedural changes?

[TRK]

post up your idea.

[TD675]

I would like to add the following to the rulebook to allow for a "LeMans Style" start for the 4-hour

Section 7.1.1 Four Hour Endurance Starting

The 4-hour endurance race will have a "LeMans Style" start with additional procedures as follows:

A. Bikes will be on the grid against the pit wall in their assigned grid positions at an angle facing forward.

B. Bikes will be running in neutral with one crew member holding it up from behind.

C. Riders will start on foot straight across from their bikes on the opposite side of the racing surface and will run to their machines when the light goes out or the green flag is waved.




I realize there might be a lot more to this but from my research, it seems that this is pretty standard for LeMans starts.

We had 34 entries for the 4 hour last year. If the bikes were spaced 8 feet apart then the grid would take up about 270 feet of track surface. The bikes start against the pit wall so that the crew can get back over in a reasonable time. Also, at HPR it will make for a better entry to turn 1.


Hope to get some people on board with this. It could be a lot of fun and definitely different.

[aspenbum]

Let's just move NOVU to the end of the day anyway!

[N1K]

Yes let's put endurance first and the nov classes last. I like it.

[jmaher]

Allow rear shocks of unlimited origin on production cup bikes.

Rational: This would align us with other organizations running production cup.

[cjmagnuss]

Eliminate Heavyweight Supersport and Heavyweight Superbike from the schedule.

Rationale: Come on, HWSS = MWSS Part 2, HWSB = MWSB Part 2. Our schedule is too long and does not have enough contingent time should we need it.

[TRK]

GSXR750, Panigale 899, MV Agusta F3, MV Brutale, possibly the new H2, plus some other bikes coming down the pipeline are pure HW bikes. Every club in the US has HW classes. The grids are large, manufactures and vendors pay great contingency, and every other club n the country has HW classes to support these reasons.



If you want to get rid of a class that is 100% redundant............get rid of thunderbike. Hell we could get rid of one our two production cup races we have every weekend (these are EXACTLY the same.)

I like our schedule, but looking to get rid of some great classes, with great races, so we can save maybe 15 minutes a day is a bad idea IMO. We could get rid of F40, cause it is just a repeat of.........or get rid of...........cause it is kinda like.........

We could always just start the day 15 or 30 minutes earlier.

[WolFeYeZ]

Eliminate Heavyweight Supersport and Heavyweight Superbike from the schedule.

Rationale: Come on, HWSS = MWSS Part 2, HWSB = MWSB Part 2. Our schedule is too long and does not have enough contingent time should we need it.

I think you have a good point, but this would completely shaft the couple of heavyweight bikes out there. Maybe eliminate HWSS and keep HWSB since they are almost completely redundant.

[WolFeYeZ]

Remove or modify 5.2.1 - "P. Supercharging (including turbo charging and blowers) is not allowed, except in Race of the Rockies."

Reasoning: The new Kawasaki H2 would be excluded from every race except ROR. It should belong in at least Open Superbike and possible other classes.

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Update the wording of 7.1.J (scoring/restarting after a red flag) to:
J. When restarting or scoring a red-flagged race, racers will be re-gridded or scored as to their running order on the final lap that was completed by the entire field preceding the red flag. If the race is restarted, racers who crash or retire from a race before or during the red flag lap will be re-gridded at the back of the grid behind all non-crashing/non-retiring racers in the order in which they last crossed start/finish. If the race is determined to be complete and the race was stopped due to a rider(s) crash, the rider(s) involved will finish at the back of their respective lap group. i.e. a rider causing the red flag was in 5th place at the time of the red flag, there were 10 riders on the lead lap, and 15 riders started the race. The involved rider would be scored in 10th place.

Reasoning: The current wording is confusing as it cant be taken different ways. It should be reworded to clarify the intended rule.

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Add rule to Supersport: 2.2.2.C The following items may be replaced by parts of unrestricted origin: x - Battery.

Reasoning: Lightweight batteries cost like $40 more than standard and can be much more reliable since we only use our bikes a few times a year. A lightweight battery is not going to change the results of a race.

[TRK]

I am working on this one bro.....basically I think we should follow the WERA model and any bike that comes from the factory with forced induction bumps up a class. If it is an open bike then it is an open bike........

[Dutch]

As for meatballs. As a nov. I wasnt acclimated w pit in procedures. And I think its a superfluous danger coming n and goin out. A suggestion is a 5 sec penalty is appropo and much safer.

[Matrix]

Suggest being able to run Rain Tires in Production.

Current: Section 2.10.N: Tires must be DOT rated tires only. The DOT rated tires can be grooved at the racer’s discretion.

Proposed: Section 2.10.N: Tires must be DOT rated (no slicks). Rain tires will be allowed in the event a race is declared a wet race.

Rational: 1. Race DOT's do not work in the rain and/or when cold. Period. 2. Why not be able to run a decent tire that is built for the conditions? 3. I realize its intent it is to make racing cheaper but a used set of rains shouldn't break the bank. 4. Production Class, while fun on their own, are also a learning class where experience is gained that can be applied to bigger bikes later. By limiting a proper tire, you take away from that experience. 5. Racing in the rain (on rain tires) was a lot of fun and confidence inspiring on what you can get away with on them. DOT's and Street tires will not provide the same experience.

[cjmagnuss]

GSXR750, Panigale 899, MV Agusta F3, MV Brutale, possibly the new H2, plus some other bikes coming down the pipeline are pure HW bikes. Every club in the US has HW classes. The grids are large, manufactures and vendors pay great contingency, and every other club n the country has HW classes to support these reasons.



If you want to get rid of a class that is 100% redundant............get rid of thunderbike. Hell we could get rid of one our two production cup races we have every weekend (these are EXACTLY the same.)

I like our schedule, but looking to get rid of some great classes, with great races, so we can save maybe 15 minutes a day is a bad idea IMO. We could get rid of F40, cause it is just a repeat of.........or get rid of...........cause it is kinda like.........

We could always just start the day 15 or 30 minutes earlier.

We had a great time watching you and Pete battle all year but look at the grids or results and compare HW to MW. They are the same race. We should cater to the majority of OUR racers, not the random out of town guy with an MV Augusta. Panigale 899, MV Agusta F3, MV Brutale are all thunderbikes. No one has a GSXR750 (except maybe someone cheating)

I never understood why we had production cup both days either...

I'm open to other ideas too, I just don't want to be out there running superstreet in the dark or packing airfence in the dark. We need to do something.

[TRK]

They aren't exactly the same, but most of our classes have another class that has a majority of participants that are the same.
We can shorten up the day, without canceling classes that 40 plus racers signed up for this year. Jim is working on some scheduling ideas plus with all the thoughts out there about regrouping practice we can come up with more than the 15 minutes that canceling 2 very popular classed would create. Plus no matter what happens we can't control the weather.
We will discuss more at the meeting, but we can definitely come up with a better solution than telling guys we are getting rid of classes

[Yeeker]

Even running MW & HW concurrently would be better than eliminating HW. I don't know that I want any changes yet.

[peteyt328]

I'm not opposed to eliminating some classes (there are many more than just HWSS and HWSB), but that's good contingency money that you're eliminating. Another reason I like the double header schedule though. Running 15 classes twice per weekend provides the same amount of racing time and contingency money as running 30 different classes once per weekend. Just sayin....