Rule Change Discussion: Production Cup Classes 2015

[rybo]

The following changes have been suggested for the production cup classes:

1) Consolidation into 2 classes - 350/500

I think this is a bad idea for a variety of reasons.

A few years ago we convinced the membership to buy bikes that were not competitive ANYWHERE else in our structure with the promise that there would be a place for them to race. These bikes are still active on our grids and there are several for sale in the forums at this time. By eliminating the class you potentially do several things. Alienate existing members who already own and race the motorcycles and depress the value of the bikes that are for sale.

Both of these have negative impacts on our members without any REAL positive benefit to the club. There is no time gained by eliminating the 250 class because it runs concurrently with the other production classes. I see no reason to eliminate this class.



2) Move the production rules closer to supersport - allowing cartridge forks etc.

I can get behind allowing a replacement rear shock, but the whole point of the production classes is to control the cost of competition. When you start adding $2000 fork kits and brembo master cylinders to the equation you will have 10K production bikes on the grid, completely contrary to the intention of the class. Personally I would like to see supersport bikes move more towards the PRODUCTION rules than moving our production bikes towards our supersport rules.

I support the rear shock because of the reasons stated in the rule change suggestion. Many of the bikes that are racing are getting to an age where a shock overhaul would be recommended / required. There are limited people / shops capable of this work and because of the shock design it's a prohibitive task. A replacement shock that is rebuildable will cost about the same as replacing or servicing the stock shock.

[T Baggins]

I disagree that it would have all that negative of an impact... a good 250 rider is still within a second a lap of the top 500 guys... so clearly the bike isn't the only factor. Since the 250's aren't made any more, it makes sense to align more with what is currently available. My beef with the current structure is literally ANYONE can sign up for 400 right now (on a 250 or 300 or 400 or Tricycle) and finish top 5 at the end of the year. That's more like youth soccer than racing imo... The fact that the classes run together anyway would still offer the same "racing experience" to the riders - and you're going to finish where you finish - regardless of what you're on.

Whether we cut to two classes or not, the displacements need to be addressed anyway because of the RC390. It belongs in 500, not in 400. If keeping three, I suggest 250, 350, 500 - and maybe the Honda single 300 should be allowed to compete in the 250 class. The idea of competing against the Kawi 300 and now Yami 321 on a Honda 300 single would be laughable at best.

Rear shocks, absolutely for the reasons I stated in my original rule change thread and what Scott reiterated above. Cheaper to buy an aftermarket (or graft on from an R6 or GSXR) than "fix" a stock one.

Cartridge forks, absolutely NOT! As Scott said, a big part of production is keeping it inexpensive by limiting mods - and THAT is why the racing is so good. Additionally, I think that we're so spoiled as riders now that nobody actually KNOWS HOW TO RIDE AROUND A PROBLEM OR SHORTCOMING. Part of the fun, challenge, and EDUCATION in production racing is figuring out how to make a slow, stock, poorly set up bike go fast and make IT believe it's a real race bike! You'd be amazed how that skill transfers over to when you ARE riding a real race bike... Makes you a WAAAYYY better rider for sure!

[mkdiehl]

Hi Tony,
At the risk of letting facts into this discussion....."a good 250 rider is still within a second a lap of the top 500 guys"; Not true. Going by the last round at PPIR, Hammer had times in the 1:03-1:04 range (a top 500 rider) and you were in the 1:05-106 range (another top rider). What would you consider a "good" 250 rider? Rachelle is one of the better ones we have these days (thanks to the fact that we had the 250 class I would argue) and she was in the 1:08-1:09 range.....she is hardly what I would consider a "good" rider, but rather one of the "best" riders. Maybe you think I would qualify as "good" having won a 250 race or two? I was in the 1:10+ range (as were a large group of us including Tim, Jose, Kionka, etc). Point being they are hardly the same times and shouldn't be compared/raced against.
Actually, Hammer and you have times around a "good" 600 rider and there are only a few 500's....maybe we should have you guys just race in the 600 class?
I really don't know where this sudden need comes from. While I do agree with your point about having people sign up for the wrong class to get trophies, I don't know why that is really an issue unless it is a economical strain on the MRA. I am sure that you still have more plastic trophies than any of these riders, so you should still feel good about yourself either way!
What Scott said about alienating people I agree with. There were as many as 15 - 250 riders at PPIR...on actual Ninja 250's (and a CBR I believe). Do you really not think that constitutes its own class? Not to mention it is run with 2 other classes at the same time? I understand that the 250 isn't made any more but who cares? We have two entire classes dedicated to bikes not made any more (Mondern vintage I believe it is called). The production class was developed to help attract new riders at a reduced cost. When first introduced, other than the bikes that you went and picked up in CA (thanks again by the way), the rest of us had to buy a street bike and build it. This averaged around $5,000 when all said and done. Now that there are as many bikes on the grid as there are, someone new can pick up one of these well sorted bikes for $3,000 +/-. Your idea would lead people to need to purchase new bikes and convert to be competitive (and get those trophies we all want) since there aren't that many used 300's for sale period and certainly not that many race bike versions for sale. Defeats the purpose I think.
I really wasn't planning on attending the rules meeting this year as my racing schedule for next year involves pedals more than throttles, but I will go if this continues to gain momentum.....to argue against it further for the better of others like me that used 250s as a learning/less expensive avenue.

I would support the rule that limits you to race in the correct class if that is the compromise needed.

....in case anyone wanted my opinion....

Matt

[TRK]

Good points by all. We will hammer out all the pros and cons come the meeting. If you can't be there, and want to hammer home your ideas, call or email me. If you want to do a true comparison, compare the 250 class to the 400 class. These are the classes that would be combined IF any changes take place. Comparing the 250s to the 500s is pretty pointless.

[widmannj]

My $0.02:

I think everyone who races production cup appreciates the budget racing aspect. Cartridge forks are truly unnecessary for these bikes. The current production rules are sufficient, in terms of fork tuning (springs, compression emulators, modify damping rods, fork oil viscosity), to safely ride these slow bikes fast.

I certainly agree that allowing for a non-stock rear shock will be a totally reasonable rule change. As Tony said, in most cases swapping the rear shock on a production cup bike with any stock 600/1000cc sport bike shock would make a WORLD of difference. Those that choose to upgrade beyond that will unlikely gain significant advantage over an OEM shock swap, and therefore within the sentiment and philosophy of the production cup.

As far as combining classes, I think a 350/500 class definition is totally reasonable. This would put the new RC390 in with the Honda 500s and the 250s and <400s. Let's take a look at lap records for each track we race. All 250 cup lap records are >1-3 seconds faster than the 400 cup records.

My reasoning behind this combination is it has been difficult to fill some of the newly defined classes (400 and 500). This results in (again, as Tony pointed out) a guaranteed top 5 for anyone in these classes. Additionally, it removes eligibility for contingency in these classes if we can't fill the grids. Combining these classes wouldn't hurt the 250 riders chances (look at the times below) and increases competition....win win.

High Plains Raceway track records
Class Comp. # Rider Name Lap Time Date
250 Production Cup 177 Tracey Schram 2:07.304 08/27/11
400 Production Cup 918 Joseph Washburn 2:10.339 08/23/14
500 Production Cup 213 Jason Madama 2:04.842 08/23/14




High Plains Raceway North Course track records
Class Comp. # Rider Name Lap Time Date
250 Production Cup 108 David Kibler 1:26.480 08/11/13
400 Production Cup 137 Mike Davis 1:28.812 08/10/13
500 Production Cup 213 Jason Madama 1:24.489 08/11/13




Pikes Peak Raceway track records
Class Comp. # Rider Name Lap Time Date
250 Production Cup 108 David Kibler 1:07.050 07/20/13
400 Production Cup 918 Joe Washburn 1:08.225 07/20/14
500 Production Cup 213 Jason Madama 1:05.832 07/20/13


Pueblo Motorsports Park track records
Class Comp. # Rider Name Lap Time Date
250 Production Cup 108 David Kibler 01:48.175 06/29/13
400 Production Cup 918 Joe Washburn 01:50.360 06/21/14
500 Production Cup 213 Jason Madama 01:46.291 06/21/14

[Yeeker]

Records aren't a fair comparison - they're too rider dependent. Yes, in a combined 250/300 class the 250 record holders would likely win. The people that would be affected are the riders of equal skill on different machinery. When a 300 ends up beating a 250 because of machinery, it will become less fun for the 250 rider. That 250 rider might even want to spend more money to build a 300. Riders looking to enter that class might not want to buy the more-affordable, less competitive 250s, so they either spend more money building a 300 or, worse, don't enter the grid at all. The healthy 250 grid begins to disappear and the 300s continue to slowly grow (as they would grow anyway).

The 300 class is a slowly growing class, but handing out less trophies doesn't make cannibalizing the 250 class a good idea.

[mkdiehl]

Remind me what we are trying to fix with this? What is the issue that has brought this need to disrupt one of the most successful classes?

[widmannj]

Records aren't a fair comparison - they're too rider dependent. Yes, in a combined 250/300 class the 250 record holders would likely win. The people that would be affected are the riders of equal skill on different machinery. When a 300 ends up beating a 250 because of machinery, it will become less fun for the 250 rider. That 250 rider might even want to spend more money to build a 300. Riders looking to enter that class might not want to buy the more-affordable, less competitive 250s, so they either spend more money building a 300 or, worse, don't enter the grid at all. The healthy 250 grid begins to disappear and the 300s continue to slowly grow (as they would grow anyway).

The 300 class is a slowly growing class, but handing out less trophies doesn't make cannibalizing the 250 class a good idea.

Good points. I'm certainly interested in hearing from more of the current 250 and 300 riders. If the 250s are truly at a performance disadvantage compared to any of the 300s, it would be a shame to combine the classes and penalize the 250 riders.

The main impetus for combining classes (with comparable machinery) is to fill grids. If this cannot be achieved, because the only comparable bikes share the same displacement, this wouldn't work for obvious reasons. Sounds like we need to discuss more at the rule change meeting...

[jmaher]

I understand moving from the 250 PC to the 300 PC as the 250's are no longer built. Would allowing aftermarket air filters in the 250's put them on par with the 300's engine performance? Or perhaps some other inexpensive performance modification? That would keep the 250's viable. Just looking for an easy answer.

Joe

[blaircsf]

...
Sounds like we need to discuss more at the rule change meeting...

Somewhere I'm guessing Shannon is agreeing with you, but since we can't seem to wait...

I know the 250s are no longer being built, but this is a recent change. We still have a lot of actual 250s on the grids and in the club. I haven't ridden a 250 and a 300, but I'm guessing with equal riders the 300 has an advantage. I could see combining them in a few years as the number of 250s drop, but given the number currently it seems premature. Otherwise, as others have mentioned, I see people coming to the conclusion that if they really want to be competitive in the class they have to move to a 300.

[sneakyhonda]

Everyone has great points but as far as the 250 class I would really hate to see it combined with any other and I'm not for it, I also would love to try to keep the 250 class as close as possible to production cup but I do understand the rear shock an am ok with that. I have ridden a 250 and tested a 300 and I felt a huge difference in power. My 2c

[Matrix]

As a 300 rider this year (not on a tricycle) I would say the 250's are equally competitive. David and Rachael can attest as we raced side by side all season and at no point did it appear to me that the 250's were not capable of competing. Both riders could pass me down the straight at HPR if they worked the draft which is a big part of small bike racing. This was not true of the 500's. They had a large advantage down the straights that was noticeable and hard to over come.

In addition to all the other comments, other clubs are merging these classes together as well with good results. Chuckwalla did it last year and at the round this past weekend they were debating about what to do with the Yamaha 321cc R3. Looks like it will be allowed as well. Results from the weekend, two of top 3 bikes were 250's.

[sneakyhonda]

300 riders don't want to compete against the 390 I understand the point but same for the 250 riders don't want to compete against the 300 class. I understand we can't make everyone happy but if this happens then allow 250 mods to air box or along those lines to make up the hp difference but saying that I feel that we are loseing the Production cup feel.

[Yeeker]

Since some have asked for current riders to chime in... I didn't ride all year, but did ride a 250 in two races this year. In one of the two races, I was unable to get past a 300 even though I seemed to have better corner speed and drives. I tried for 3-4 laps. i wasn't going quite as fast as David, but I think that this race definitely came down to motor. I came into the pits thinking the 300 rider was riding a cheater 250.

[mkionka]

I agree with Blair. Right now, we've got a decent number of 250's on the grid. If those numbers drop consistently later on, combining with the 300's would be fine. Cheap used '08-'12 Ninja 250 are still all over the place.

I'm also for keeping the stock airbox on the 250's, rather than trying to get them to keep up with the 300's.

I hope to keep running my 250 for several more years before upgrading to something bigger.

Mike, #479

Somewhere I'm guessing Shannon is agreeing with you, but since we can't seem to wait...

I know the 250s are no longer being built, but this is a recent change. We still have a lot of actual 250s on the grids and in the club. I haven't ridden a 250 and a 300, but I'm guessing with equal riders the 300 has an advantage. I could see combining them in a few years as the number of 250s drop, but given the number currently it seems premature. Otherwise, as others have mentioned, I see people coming to the conclusion that if they really want to be competitive in the class they have to move to a 300.