Protest (me) Form for Download!

[T Baggins]

So here's a weird bike example for you Jeff, that certainly would not be expected to do well in NovU/O or AmU/O -

the trusty SV650.

You can still run it in those 4 classes - as well as in LWEND, HWEND, STU, LWGP - as a Novice.

for simple math, say Say you finished 25th in each Novice and AM class class which is 6 points x 4 = 24 points

say you finished 15th in both HWEnd, LWEnd 16 points x 2 = 32 points

and 10th in STU and LWGP 21 points x 2 = 42 points

so for the weekend you'd have 98 points even with those very realistic finishes.

the guy on an open bike who can ONLY run NovO, AMO, and EndO - even if he wins both Nov and AM and finishes 5th in EndO will have only 98 as well... and soon as he moves up to Provisional Expert, he's out of Novice and certainly won't do as well in the open Expert classes - so the little guy still has a fighting chance imo.

[cjmagnuss]

I bet some vendors wouldn’t be in business if there weren’t 1st year novices spending 4 years race budget in one season. I think Dave points out that the vendor business culture doesn’t work well for retaining new novice racers. I have no beef with any of the vendors, you’re providing parts and services that racers (me included) need and it’s not your position to say no to a novice who wants to max out their credit cards thinking they’ll drop a few seconds (and get that plastic trophy). But, the Amway like culture encourages (and pressures) racers looking to improve their abilities to spend money with X vendor for this and Y vendor for that. It can be a bit overwhelming and I can see how quickly and easily it can spiral out of control for some people (i.e. Well, I’m already in it for X dollars, why not spend a little more… every weekend). Thus very quickly, you’re not able to race anymore and have to sell everything to pay off credit cards. I know we’ve all seen this and unfortunately seen some real talent come and go.

[jeff healy]

As a vendor and a racer I see both sides of the coin. I'm a firm believer that longevity in a business plan is the only way to survive. If all the racers go out and blow their wad the first year and can't afford to return, you no longer have anyone to sell your product to. I would rather work with them to make a planthat works and help keep them in the sport as a customer for life! I think a lot of people are getting that lately and I think that is a big reason we still have a club and a lot of others don't. So, I guess this turned into a shamless thumbs up to our board and club for thinking ahead and continuing to by brainstorming things like this instead of just jacking up prices and trying to make money Now lets go race our asses off!!

[Desmodromico]

This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

As a slow ass expert who obviously didn't stay in novice long enough (maybe I should have an orange vest with my white plate), I would say it is because there seems to be a huge jump in speed and time/resources required. While I would like to say I'd race MWSB or ROR-U and try to learn from the fast guys, I'd likely be running a solitary race after the first half a lap, so I run Thunderbike, AM-U, and Endurance hoping to find some people to race with, often unsuccessfully as most of the other experts who aren't really fast have hung it up. No matter the speed you go, if you have people to compete with racing is a hell of a lot more fun.

I have kids, a job that requires a lot of travel, and a budget that is probably more than some but much less than a lot of others. I am lucky to get 3-4 track days a year to try to improve, and it can be frustrating on weekends like this one where I ran my best times in Saturday practice and then chased tire/suspension/clutch issues all weekend and got slower and slower.

Unfortunately racing is like the NFL, most have short careers, and people try to chase the "glory" while they can in that short time. I don't think 8th place in ROR is as impressive as a Novice win in a lot of people's minds even though they are very different levels, or at least are supposed to be skill-wise.

[T Baggins]

Hey Dave, there's a typo on your protest form... I downloaded it anyway, and am studying the rulebook every night between now and PPIR.

I'm SURE I'll find SOMETHING.... ! :twisted: :lol:

[dave.gallant]

Hey Dave, there's a typo on your protest form... I downloaded it anyway, and am studying the rulebook every night between now and PPIR.

I'm SURE I'll find SOMETHING.... ! :twisted: :lol:

"...I always screw up some mundane detail..."

At the monthly meeting I did hear something encouraging:

Riders can run SuperStreet as many times as they want.

I am done with this fastest-novices-in-the-west donkey show. I am going to sand those yellow plates right off and go race SUPERSTREET!

[dave.gallant]

Two interesting things to note in the rulebook when reading it this evening:

We do not do a great job defining what a protestable offense is versus a non-protestable offense. Can a rider be protested for his number if it meets technical requirements? Can a rider be protested for a technical requirement that is not listed as a protestable offense? (eg: placement of transponder comes to mind as an example). I understand we will never capture everything.

I really like your idea (Tony) of providing a method of enticing our novices to partake in the expert grids while distributing the contingency across as many participants as possible. Now if we could use that to address the shrinking expert grids and show rider retention, I would be most impressed.

[T Baggins]

At the monthly meeting I did hear something encouraging:

Riders can run SuperStreet as many times as they want.

Imperfect from the standpoint of building our racing membership, but at least they're doing it on the track with us instead of in the canyons (on Saturdays anway...), and it's turned to be a good source of revenue both from the entry fees and the specators they bring.

SS guys seem to bring 3-4 people with them to watch; there have been years where I've brought exactly NO ONE with me - so we're gaining exposure and income because of their ongoing participation.

If we "make them" license up after a period of time, I'll bet we'd lose most of them.

And it's a "perfect novice class" by your standards... no results, no trophies, no championship. But even that is not enough to dissuade some, and so they might as well ride with us!

[dave.gallant]

And it's a "perfect novice class" by your standards... no results, no trophies, no championship. But even that is not enough to dissuade some, and so they might as well ride with us!

Do we have a vision or intent for what the "Novice" classification means with our fine organization?

Not a definition mind you, but what we hope to create or instill in these budding stars?



(And, no. By my definition, a perfect novice class would be one that preps my bike and makes sure my glass is always full of cool sweet lemonade while I nap awaiting the F40 class.)

[T Baggins]

I really like your idea (Tony) of providing a method of enticing our novices to partake in the expert grids while distributing the contingency across as many participants as possible.

Now if we could use that to address the shrinking expert grids and show rider retention, I would be most impressed.

If you really think it thru, I believe it would do EXACTLY THAT. Fill expert grids, share the wealth at the Novice level, and essentially provide for(force?) people to ride in classes/groups where they are competitive with their peers.

Sandbaggers, put down your shovels... They will be of no use to you any more.


NOW the next thing is tackling expert rider retention... on a LONG TERM basis.


Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :shock:

[gsnyder828]

Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :shock:

=D>

[T Baggins]

Do we have a vision or intent for what the "Novice" classification means with our fine organization?

Not a definition mind you, but what we hope to create or instill in these budding stars?

In my mind, the Novice Classes should be a "relatively" safe haven for new riders to learn the sport and hone their skills (with riders of similar skill) until such a time that they are ready for expert competition. Some are ready sooner than others - some may never be ready. In my mind that's ok.

The term "Expert" suggests you have "mastered" something to a certain degree. Until you have mastered the art of riding a motorcycle around a racetrack, quickly and safely, you are a novice.

I've been playing golf since I was in my twenties, but I am definitely still a Novice - and probably always will be. The ONLY part of golf I've mastered is communicating effectively with the beer girl about needing her to come by at least 4 times during my round. If you tip well enough, they will do that... but simply knowing that does not make me an expert by any means.

[sheispoison]

Although don't really feel like a novice, I definitly don't feel like an expert either. The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

[lars]

2fiddy arent real? :?:
I'm in with further spec classes!!!!!

[T Baggins]

The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

Same rules apply - if they're a Novice in their club, they're a novice in our club - until they mark out as I've described. Wouldn't be any different whether it's a guy from out of state, or a local guy who starts at round 3... once he finishes top 5 twice, he's bumped up.

If they have an "amateur" or Provisional Expert designation with their club, then we'd put them in the Middle with our guys.

[Wayniac]

Although don't really feel like a novice, I definitly don't feel like an expert either. The hard part about leveling the playing field like you suggest is what do you do when guys come in from out of town? Where do they fall in if the club they came from still has the same kind of 3 tiered system? Just thinking...

When I suggested an amateur class, this is what I was talking about. It would require another plate brackground (Black comes to mind) It would be for the riders in between novice/expert speeds. You wouldn't need to add classes, but I would not let novice run amateur classes. Still leave endurance open to novice so they can get in track time with more experienced riders. As far as filling ROR grids, maybe allow riders to ride both but have to pick one for scoring and championship. (assuming an amateur is withing the 115% lap time tolerance) Out of state riders visiting would be placed accordingly to there current classification.

[Clarkie]

Anybody interested in a SPEC 600 series, ala the 250 Cup, but on "real" motorcycles...? :shock:

A spec 600 class would be even easier to cheat in than the 250 class 8)

[ducati7044]

WOW! Hey Dave, your introduction and explanation was fantastically written. Well done. Oh, by the way, when I was a "novice" we were still running BIAS ply tires!! Luxury then was a knee slider that was held on with velcro rather than duc tape and a helmet that actually fit!

[dave.gallant]

...when I was a "novice" we were still running BIAS ply tires!! Luxury then was a knee slider that was held on with velcro rather than duc tape and a helmet that actually fit!

Circa RZ/RD?

[glenngsxr]

Speaking from personal experience, I don't think it was the novice years or even the amateur years where I became part of that turnover. It was actually the 2nd or 3rd expert year. There is a clear delineation between the new experts and the seasoned experts simply due to the tightened gaps between lap times.

Example, finding a full second as a novice is easy. Can be done through becoming a better racer and is worth at least 4-5 spots at the finish. You can make these gains for quite awhile.

You jump up to amateur/expert stuff and it gets a little tougher. Finding a full second gets tougher and passing more people gets harder as well. You start to look for other ways to gain time. Most folks resolve this issue by throwing money at it. This is a one-way street and why I think the turnover is so high, especially among the experts. This was my situation to a T. I got stuck in the expert class running around in 6th or 7th place and it got old. I threw money at it and actually went backwards from being so frustrated and not having any fun. Luckily, I saw the writing on the wall before I went broke.

I don't think you will ever be able to control the turnover at any level in racing. Many people have always wanted to "try it out" and become novices. It either is or isn't what you expected and you stay or move on. Simple as that. If you come back to be an expert, you are obviously hooked and are choosing to stick around......until you either run out of money or stop having fun (which usually go hand in hand).

I am against changing the novice championship. There needs to be a logical progression to allow people to have fun and move up, which I think there is. If someone is clearly staying novice and smoking everyone's shit year after year, then that is sandbagging. I don't think making someone move up after a few podiums is the answer though.

Don't get me wrong Dave, I fully agree with you on the primadonna aspect of racing. Slow racers with the fastest, coolest equipment are still slow racers. Rules should be written to prevent this kind of crap, ie spec 600 class maybe.

[sheispoison]

Here's my thoughts on spec 600 class. I really like the idea of it. The idea of the class is to make it cheaper to race and level the playing field right? The major expense of road racing right now is tires. If I were to get a stock bike and go racing with the stock rear shock I would instantly double my tire bill. Stock suspension will simply eat rear tires for someone that weighs as much as me. If we did a stock 600 class I would like to see only 3 things being able to be changed- bodywork, DOT tires, and suspension. That's my $.02.

[loujr]

I don't understand how or why this happens. You start as a novice finish top 10 in points your an expert.....you can still race amateur classes until you finish top ten in points then no more amateur classes. So how are people still racing novice or amateur classes if they are doing well in these classes? Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points? Does the Mra have a running record of who is no longer eligible for these classes? I personally would rather be the slowest fast guy than the fastest slow guy.....which I hope to be sooner than later...... :lol:

[graphite675]

I don't understand how or why this happens. You start as a novice finish top 10 in points your an expert.....you can still race amateur classes until you finish top ten in points then no more amateur classes. So how are people still racing novice or amateur classes if they are doing well in these classes? Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points? Does the Mra have a running record of who is no longer eligible for these classes? I personally would rather be the slowest fast guy than the fastest slow guy.....which I hope to be sooner than later...... :lol:

I think it's as simple as not putting in your Novice hours and loosing your points?

.

[Clarkie]

I like the idea of a 600 spec class, FUSA tried to police their version of a close horsepower controlled 600 class with the dyno, but they didnt have Hot Carl so it should be easy to control, or really easy to cheat but club racers would never do that :lol:

[sheispoison]

If someone wants to cheat they're going to cheat. I would do my best to find it if a protest or tear down came up, but there are plenty of crafty mechanics out there that know how to hide it well. I'll do my best.
For me, I would feel like a total scoundrel if knew I was beating my competition by cheating, but I guess integrity isn't as high a virtue for everyone.