Protest (me) Form for Download!

[marty]

Instead, tell me why I am full of shit. Tell me why having vendor pressure, championship pressure, and contingency pressure is all a good thing for retaining novice racers and contributes to their continued success and retention in our club.

The one benefit to having a novice championship to some new racers is it may be their only perceived chance for a championship because they are hell bent on racing inline 4s. Personally I chased the Colorado Class championship a few years back like my job was based on it. It was fun to put myself under that much pressure even though this is just a hobby. I don't think I ever even won any tire money, maybe $100 in VP $ but thats about it. Maybe other novices think the same about their season, this may be their chance of racing like it is a job, just for kicks.

I agree that putting yourself in debt and not being able to return to the club is bad for the long term health of the club, but I don't know how you will ever get a bunch of dudes with credit cards in their pockets to not spend too much on racing dyno charts. I think it may just be the nature of the beast, it seems to be that way across the board in all forms of amateur racing. Don't get me wrong, I see your point but I don't know if there is a way around it. Tire vendors make a lot of money on the novice class, and in turn are their to support some of the poorly attended expert classes.

Personally I don't think anyone should start on anything faster than an SV, but then again I spent my novice years on a 125 trying to get past 600s and 1000s and have in turn learned a fair amount about putting corners together, corner speed an on occasion a little race craft

Maybe its like Tee ball and everyone wants to get a trophy Some people are in it for the long haul and others just want to do it as long as they are successful

[Bueller999]

IMO I think if a novice podiums 3 or 4 times they should be bumped.

I raced 2/3 of my first year running both Nov and both Am classes on an older R6. I petitioned to be bumped to expert without ever placing higher than 4th in any of the classes so I could ride LWGP. Best move I ever made to that point. Last year I did something even more beneficial to my riding, I moved to a Ninja250. Now this year I have moved back up to an SV and I feel so much more confident in my skills that I am having a great time and finally took home one of those $15 trophies. It was also the first time I put on a new set of actual race tires. :lol:

[graphite675]

IMO I think if a novice podiums 3 or 4 times they should be bumped.

^ Now I like that idea.

I'm still not 100% sure I understand where Dave is going with all of this but I think having a Novice championship is not all a bad thing?
I personally have no intention of staying a novice all my life and will move up as soon as I am able. With that said it is still nice to have goals and reward being a novice. It's something to work towards.
It's like starting a new job and working your way towards that next promotion. It's just another stepping stone.

With that said I do believe that there should be a mechanism in place to prevent people from sandbagging the class as well.

Either way, I'm just out there to have fun, enjoy myself, and push myself to that next level. I'm too old to think I might be the next Rossi :lol:

.

[oldtimer]

LOL Dave! Like I said on Saturday, it was funny seeing a 2 digit novice plate.

[dave.gallant]

Last Weekend:

MWSS: 8 Finishers
MWSB: 11 Finishers
RORU: 5 Finishers

Nov U: 32 Finishers
AM U: 29 Finishers

We had 5 times the amount of riders in Nov U than we do in ROR U.

Is there so little return on investment in the expert classes that the top 5 in Novice will simply stay rather than go be a top 5 in MWSS? Top 5 in MWSB? 6th place ROR was open this weekend for any talented 600 rider...

Of our 30 NovU riders, how many won't return next year because they now have to run AM/Expert classes instead?

Or, maybe I am completely and utterly wrong. Should I instead be suggesting to add another Novice Championship class so we could have 2 classes in the MRA where there are 30+ bikes on the grid at all times?

These are honest questions boys and girls. Your responses so far have been awesome.

[dave.gallant]

I remember similar things happening back in my mx days, especially at the youth level. A lot of 80 riders at the amateur level would pull off track at the last minute to avoid getting "marks" and having to move to the 80 pro class. Then come arenacross season under the AMA they could register as a novice. There was a good chunk of cash up for grabs, cherry picking at it's finest. I remember being so pissed off that I had to race against my local "80pros" at those events and never getting any YZ bucks. Regardless, I kept at it, I got better and had some moments of glory.

This brings me to a thought, what if we dropped the novice championship and put the actual novice in that class and made a real Amateur class where the "fast" novice would go to compete for championships, money and other fabulous prizes?

Two questions:

Did the MX guys ever come up with a way of coaxing the "80pros" to stop pulling off and move up?

We already have AMU. Instead of <some class here with low signups>, possibly another AMU/O-like class? Or, ROR-AM (with the existing ROR-EX)? Then, never kick anyone out of novice. Let them stay in the novice class forever if they wish, but no points and no contingency.

(I am brainstorming with you guys here. Give me some better ideas...)

[spideyrdr]

Out of the 30+ men and women who gridded up for NovU and NovO, my guess is only a couple racers apply to Dave's beef. Most of us, I think anyway, are going out there with realistic goals that are much different than winning a championship. It's great to be racing in a series that IS a championship, but I would guess most of us are racing for pride, improving our racecraft, a chance at a top 10 finish or two this season, or finishing in the top 10 overall to get a white plate.

Do some racers walk away because they aren't as competitive as they had hoped? Sure, a few racers might be dreaming winning it all, and when they realize they can't, they walk away. But look at the other racers in the grid who have been racing at a medium pace for years and keep coming back.

Do others rack up too much debt and have to bail out due to a lack of funds? No doubt. But, again, look at the other racers in the grid who have been racing on a sustainable budget for years and keep coming back.

Rather than paint with a broad stroke that characterizes the Novice races and racers as a problem, why not look at the actual outcome from, let's say, last year. The overall top 10 racers from last year typically all finished in the top 15 each race, so they were at least somewhat competitive with each other all year. At least 8 out of the top 10 guys from NovU last year raced this past weekend, that's not so bad. It seems like a 10 ten finish in NovU (and hence a shot at a white plate) didn't keep racers from coming back this year.

I guess I am with a few others who are sure what your true issue is, Dave, as you've made some broad statements. You state you are directing your comments toward "the culture we as a race organization have created where being the fastest novice is as important as being the fastest racer." For a good number of us, that ISN'T the case. The culture some (most?) of us subscribe to is in line with the mission of the MRA. What's important to more than a few of us is to get out there, improve our craft, learn about technique and the technical side of things, have some safe, spirited fun on and off the track, and be able to brag up our meager accomplishments to our friends and family who think we're crazy for doing what we do.

It seems like your issue is with the minority and may be limited to a small handful of racers. Maybe I was just too far back in the pack to see what the problem was - I am willing to admit that being 'back there' may have left me clueless as to what all the fuss is about. But that's ok since I plan to be back at each race to have some fun and try to achieve the goals I set for myself coming into the season - on my "state-of-the-art" '03 R6, my very limited race budget, and doing so while sleeping in the back of my Jeep when necessary. Good times!

If the guys in the first few rows new week have the latest and greatest technology and can flog me, that only means I get to keep trying to improve with what I have. The only one I am out there to beat is me - that and maybe a few other guys that race at a similar medium pace.

I look forward to racing with this club in whichever classes I can afford to do while I can still do it. I said it elsewhere and I will reiterate it here - Congrats to all my competitors this weekend. Whether you finished in front of me or behind me, it was a pleasure to race with you. See you all at PPIR, whether you're on a cheater bike or a beater bike.

Cheers,
Jamie

[Bueller999]

Related to my previous post, my idea would be a points system. 1st = 3 pnts. 2nd = 2pts. 3rd =1pnt. When you reach 9 or 12 pnts. You are bumped.
They get trophies and contingency for the time you are a winning novice and it would eliminate sandbagging because there is no point in it.

[jeff healy]

The issue is trying to eliminate the sandbagging while not losing racers because they are forced to runa white plate. What about some type of mentoring program for first year experts? I know the hand holding has to stop somewhere but it may be what it takes for people to graduate and see that it is still possible to win! I know that 2 of the top 3 in MWSS this weekend were Novices with me last year and now they are killing it in the expert classes. I am one of those that ran my novice classes last year for my first year of racing and when the opportunity to graduate this season came around I couldn't wait! I just finished my first weekend as an expert with a 2nd in thunderbike and a 3rd in ROR U and felt like I was cherry pickin in expert classes more than in Nov because there are so few people on the grids!

I do think that the reason I was excited to move up to expert was that I was allowed to race a couple of expert races towards the end of my novice season and it let me know that it's really not that big of a jump! Plus the opportunity to learn so much faster having to keep up rather than being in the front not learning was motivating.

So i'm sure that jumped all over the place because I've had way too much coffee this morning but hopefully there was something useful there

[rforsythe]

This thread rocks, and not just because I laughed my ass off at the first post. I've protested myself out of a race before, but never gone as far as distributing pre-filled forms to other riders.

My broken old ass could line up next to you on the Novice grid as well as per the rule book 8)

Best. Novice. Race. Ever.

What about some type of mentoring program for first year experts? I know the hand holding has to stop somewhere but it may be what it takes for people to graduate and see that it is still possible to win!

It's informal, but I've never seen a seasoned expert refuse to give advice to a new expert, and will often coach as well (some have made a side profession of it). Much in the same light as "adopt a novice" that a lot of us do, it's not a defined mentoring program but the opportunity is there for those who wish to learn.

Along those lines, perhaps those who were protesting and bitching about Dave's presence should view it as "holy crap, I have this fast-as-fuck expert level racer out with me for the next 7-9 laps, I'm gonna learn something from this guy".

[nobasin]

i think adding this class would help retain racers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/sp...africa.html?hp

[Young Luke]

Dave, I found my initial irritation with you blowing by me with your expert skillz in NovU quickly transferred into me making the same move on someone else a lap later. So thanks for that

I actually did the race school with you at the clubhouse at SCR back in 05. I remember you, you surely don't remember me. I didn't get to race after that until late last year.

I want to learn, and take lessons and seek advice wherever I can. I compete against myself primarily, but I wouldn't be a racer if I didn't want to be faster than the other guy and try to beat him/her to the line.

I'm a novice, in this novice system that we have. If I do get a podium, I have some stickers that will get me a prize, and will get a little trophy. Those things are cool - who doesn't want to win something? At the end of the day: Big deal. That's not my primary motivation.

Keeping up with, and maybe some day dicing with you and the others is my motivation. Secondarily, I LOVE working on my bike. Thirdly, hanging out with everyone here is about the coolest thing I've ever done.

I crashed my ass off on Sunday in AmO. Over the last couple of days recovering from my concussion, hardly able to walk (said without discounting the more serious injuries of the others that crashed), all the normal thoughts went through my mind:

"Maybe I should re-think this", "Giggity-Giggity-Goo", "its going to cost as much to replace just my personal gear as I had budgeted for tires for the rest of the season","family","broken bike", "I'm not as fast as that cherry picker Dave Gallant anyways"....

F**k it. I will be at Pike's, and I will be doing my best to follow you, learn from you, Matt and everyone else.

My bike isn't as shiny as it was on Saturday morning with its fancy paint and clear coat, but its a perfect tool to serve my motivation. And what better way to get to work on it than crashing it? ](*,)

Luke

[dave.gallant]

Along those lines, perhaps those who were protesting and bitching about Dave's presence should view it as "holy crap, I have this fast-as-fuck expert level racer out with me for the next 7-9 laps, I'm gonna learn something from this guy".

Actually, it is:

"Holy crap. This guy used to be fast as snot but now looks like he is trying to text and drive on that thing. I sure hope he can keep that pile on the track!"

Fast is relative. I am slow compared to most, and quick compared to some. This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

And, why someone in that 30-bike-pile-up would rather protest an "expert" than become an expert themselves. There is some motivation which I don't fully understand and am hoping to better understand by starting this conversation.

[dave.gallant]

i think adding this class would help retain racers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/sp...africa.html?hp

And I quote:

A Lot Like Polo, Only Faster and With Beer

I think you are onto something here!

[Wayniac]

I remember similar things happening back in my mx days, especially at the youth level. A lot of 80 riders at the amateur level would pull off track at the last minute to avoid getting "marks" and having to move to the 80 pro class. Then come arenacross season under the AMA they could register as a novice. There was a good chunk of cash up for grabs, cherry picking at it's finest. I remember being so pissed off that I had to race against my local "80pros" at those events and never getting any YZ bucks. Regardless, I kept at it, I got better and had some moments of glory.

This brings me to a thought, what if we dropped the novice championship and put the actual novice in that class and made a real Amateur class where the "fast" novice would go to compete for championships, money and other fabulous prizes?

Two questions:

Did the MX guys ever come up with a way of coaxing the "80pros" to stop pulling off and move up?

We already have AMU. Instead of <some class here with low signups>, possibly another AMU/O-like class? Or, ROR-AM (with the existing ROR-EX)? Then, never kick anyone out of novice. Let them stay in the novice class forever if they wish, but no points and no contingency.

(I am brainstorming with you guys here. Give me some better ideas...)

No, if anything they made it worse by coming up with the school boy class. Which would allow a young amateur to stay instead of becoming a pro.

Not to change the subject but who can dial my suspension in for 200 bucks that would save me 5 seconds a lap? That would have got me the win on saturday from the second wave. Insert suspension tuner here. :wink:

[jeff healy]

so another thought I have as I sit and enjoy this read. I also race with the Usba and their attendance is half of what ours is, yet the KOM grids there are twice as big. Anybody know what they are doing different? They also have 3 wave starts for their Nov grids and only make the top 5 graduate so how is this happening!?!?

[jeff healy]

Dave at STM will do it for less than $200 and working with him last year got me 4 seconds in one weekend! Learned a lot about suspension and how valuable it really is!

[rforsythe]

Actually, it is:

"Holy crap. This guy used to be fast as snot but now looks like he is trying to text and drive on that thing. I sure hope he can keep that pile on the track!"

Fast is relative. I am slow compared to most, and quick compared to some. This thread was and is not about me tooting my horn, but about why in the sam-heck we have 5 bikes in RORU and 31 bikes in Novice GTU.

And, why someone in that 30-bike-pile-up would rather protest an "expert" than become an expert themselves. There is some motivation which I don't fully understand and am hoping to better understand by starting this conversation.

You know what would help? Getting your damn cheater gas tank up out my garage! :x

[T Baggins]

I like the idea of a "novice championship" coming from TOTAL points by a Novice in the year as follows:

Start the year as a novice - run NovU, NovO, AmU, AmO (or some of the other oddball classes which we allow novices to petition into).

Finish top 5 twice in Nov U or Nov O (or AmU or AmO) and move up to "provisional expert". That would then allow you to enter "expert classes", and you could still run Amateur (but not Novice any more...) so your opportunity to earn more points is increased by the number of classes you can now run.

Or, depending on your bike, you could just keep racing as a Novice in the oddball classes to accumulate points (STU, MVU, MVO, COLO, LWGP, End, etc...) if IT isn't fast enough to finish top 5 in Nov or Am.

Then Top 10 (or whatever it is...) "Overall Novice" would move up to Expert for the following season regardless of how they attained their Top 10. If you attained the level of "provisional expert", but didn't finish Top 10, you would have the choice of moving up to expert the following season, or staying Novice - but the same rules apply for the next year, so you'd be moved up soon enough anyway.

This would do three things, which I believe are the essence of the discussion here:

1) It would still provide a carrot for Novices to win a championship (either as a provisional expert, or as a fast novice who does well in the oddball classes).

2) It would move uber-fast Novices up earlier so they can learn the tricks of racecraft by racing against Experts sooner.

3) It would thin the Novice Grids by about 25% over the course of the year - which makes a trophy all the more achievable for the remaining riders (their carrot gets closer each weekend).

4) It would increase the Expert Grids by about 50% over the course of the year.

The BEST chance of winning a Novice Championship would be on a 600cc bike or SMALLER as you can ride up into nearly anything - which I believe is the smart thing for Novices to do anyway...

Hmmmm.

[Wayniac]

That may be the best solution, stay Novice as long as you want but no points or contingency. I'm all for racing against people better than me. That's how you improve. I think the returning expert run as novice rule is stupid. It makes no sense. A grid of 5 racers is hardly a grid. That's follow the leader at best, and doesn't seem like much fun. This is tough problem.

[DOUBLE A]

Or just put all second year & older novices on mini's!?

[hcr25]

Them 2007 race tires were a matched set, that's why they worked so good. I only ran the 07 rear in my first three classes

[dave.gallant]

Them 2007 race tires were a matched set, that's why they worked so good. I only ran the 07 rear in my first three classes

You keep your paws off my secret weapons!

[jeff healy]

I really like Tony's idea! It seems like a great way to gently move people up. Only problem is that it would favor certain bikes which doesn't bother me cuz I like to ride weird S*@t but some may not do as well due to what they already have as a race bike. Either way I would support it!

[sheispoison]

Not to change the subject but who can dial my suspension in for 200 bucks that would save me 5 seconds a lap? That would have got me the win on saturday from the second wave. Insert suspension tuner here. :wink:

Dave Rose. Call him now as he is a fucking genius and a wizard so he's busy. Single Track Mind- 970-682-2071.