Interesting Discussions Regarding the MRA Race Series

[jmaher]

It almost looks like a mullet wanna-be hair style.

Joe

[KFinn]

Dennis, your repair cost would go down considerably if you were a better crasher!

[Fastt Racing]

Finne-ginger. I padded that number a little, it included different sprockets, lame bodywork fasteners that came on bike, and all kinds of little b.s. You know how to high side it right, that's for sure. P.S I beat you twice on your free tires you gave me :P hahaha.

[DOUBLE A]

This is awesome! hahahaha

I also did some stuff that most people just look at me like I have 2 heads, & drop their jaw. I wanted to preregister & pay entry fees. Pay Michelin & Dunlop for tires. Buy Sunoco 260x. Sleep in a cargo trailer. Borrow money @ the track for protests & give it right back. Eat NIK 969's granola bars. And coast back into my nieghborhood on fumes. INSTEAD of giving wells fargo $1187.80 every month for my mortgauge, & skip racing. And they didnt like my racing excuse, so now I should probably find somewheres else to store my bike & sleep? :shock: :lol:

[jeff healy]

Yup I bounced a mortgage check this summer as well knowing that it could wait but racing costs could not Priorities seemed in line to me

[benfoxmra95]

but I can tell you that many do just endurance, that drags down the average horribly.

So would i be correct in saying that someone who comes in to race JUST one endurance race, like you mentioned above, can sign up for $80 and ride 3 prac sessions in the morn and race for 30 min on sat?

if so, this seems unfair to the single sprint race entry people who pay $150 for 1 7-10 lap sprint race on sunday...

maybe the endurance races should cost more so they aren't dragging down the average per rider entry fee?

quite possibly these pesky endurance riders are getting off too cheap when they are just running only the endurance....

[rybo]

First, I want to say that Tony has done an excellent job of spelling out in this thread exactly the kinds of discussions we have on a regular basis in board meetings throughout the year.

This is a challenging time to try to run any operation that relies on people's "disposable" income - especially something as seemingly frivolous as racing motorcycles. We're at a challenging crossroads between

1) The costs to operate a racing series going up exponentially

and

2) The ability of participants and members to pay either staying the same or going down.

Add into that the other costs of racing also going up - when was the last time your engine builder, or race gas pump delivered to you the good news that they were lowering prices this year?

I'm encouraged that the membership cares enough to have some suggestions and opinions on this matter. I'll say that many of the options that have been brought up in this thread have also been brought up in many board meetings this year.

Ben - To answer your question regarding endurance racing - YES! it's the best value in racing. It offers a bunch of track time for minimal dollars. As a result there is a whole contingent of racers that come out only for endurance. These are riders that would likely not show up at all if we didn't have a "value" product to offer to them. So, while their entry drags the "per rider" total down, the question becomes would you rather have those people come and give the club $80 or not come at all? Their race is stuck at the end of the day on Saturday, and in many cases this year was shortened to 20 instead of 30 minutes. This is part of the price they pay for getting the "value" product instead of the sprint races that ran mid-day and went full distance.

To those suggesting a "saturday practice / sunday race" schedule - many of you were not around years ago when we did exactly that. The outcome was a very full sunday schedule that with only minor delays had us leaving the track sometimes well after dusk.

I think the idea of combined rounds with Miller has been adequately covered, but to sum up I'll say that I agree with the notion that traveling rounds are likely to be losing ventures for the MRA.

As a member of the board I realize that I have a distinct perspective on how the club is operating. In the past two years we've taken the club from a place where it was borrowing money and making decisions in "crisis" mode, to a place where there is a moderate reserve (about 1/2 of what is really needed) and decision making that averts crisis by identifying actions that would cause it well before we actually get there.

Keep the ideas coming, but please heed Tony's advice. He's laid out the costs of running a race round for public view - take that number and work backwards - realize that the only way this continues to happen is if we can continue to meet that number year after year, round after round. We have data that clearly shows what the average racer contributes to the revenue number. That number declines as the season wears on, due to less riders showing up and the riders that are showing up doing less racing. I don't believe that the entry fees are the barrier in this case, but rather the other costs of racing - Tires / fuel / bike maintenance, as adding races in our current pricing structure is actually quite inexpensive.

I'll close by saying that keeping this thing going is hard work. I encourage those of you who have the inclination to do so, to run for a board position. If that feels like taking on too much, then please consider volunteering your time to help promote the club at the various events that are scheduled throughout the year. In 2010 spectators were a major part of our revenue, and they gave us an alternate revenue stream that we hadn't been able to use since the 2nd Creek days. Each of those people bring money to the track that we don't have to provide a direct service for - that's a good thing for us. If you can help draw spectators to the track, that only reaps good things for our community.

See you at the next general meeting!

Scott

[Clarkie]

when was the last time your engine builder delivered to you the good news that they were lowering prices this year?

I lowered my prices to about half of what I used to charge when I was building engines in Colorado because of the econmony, or I just showed people how to build their own engines for beer. Building motorcycle race engine aint rocket science so dont let some of the dodgy engine builders convince you it is :lol:

[benfoxmra95]

i was on the board when the the solo endurance races on sat were suggested and implemented, and if i recall is was to drum up some more cash for the club and the entry fees were $50

as the times have changed(5 years later), i think it's time to update the entry fees for the endurance races and raise it to the same $150 as the single race.

or lower the fees for 1 sprint race entry.... but you already covered the "lowering the price" thing.

I think if you laid it out in a professional manner to the endurance racers and said hey, this class gives you more time than a single sprint race and it's not fair to the single sprint racers and we are going to raise the price to $150, I think you'd get a positive response.

I don't think anyone would say screw it, and not show up. and if they did they maybe they're not the types of customers the MRA needs anyways .

maybe a poll thread asking only endurance racers to show if they were showing up or not if the prices raised $70.. to match the $150 of a sprint race

I wouldn't object if it was the only class i was chasing points in. I'd merely think it as something the club needs to survive and happily write the check for the betterment of my club.

another thought: possibly make it $150 if this is the only class youre entering, and make it $100 if you entering this class plus another sprint race on sunday, that way youre not heavily charging the racers who race this class and do sun sprints.

just a estimate, but i roughly get the potential of another $1000-$1400 put into the clubs account per weekend.

[HAMMER]

Ninjas are cheap racing ......

Entrys..240 ( I think ) 4 classes , sat sun practice ..

Gas ( if I remember to use it ) is about 100 total for my pos truck and the ninja ( I run 85 in both )...

Food 50 bucks for water ,meat , fruits, snackx...

I'm in around 400-450 per weekend ....

Not including crashes and the cost of the bike ...

I only used 2 sets of 220$ tires all year actually 3 tires ( used the Same rear all season )


A little more if I run the 125 cause of pre mix gas .. not much tho

And the racing was stress fee and epic battles ....

[T Baggins]

Please everyone look at the opening post as I've attempted to redirect this and suggested some "ground rules" for participation.

The interest is great, and I believe good things could come from this discussion - even if only by educating the membership on how and why we are the way we are...

[gsnyder828]

So would i be correct in saying that someone who comes in to race JUST one endurance race, like you mentioned above, can sign up for $80 and ride 3 prac sessions in the morn and race for 30 min on sat?

if so, this seems unfair to the single sprint race entry people who pay $150 for 1 7-10 lap sprint race on sunday...

maybe the endurance races should cost more so they aren't dragging down the average per rider entry fee?

quite possibly these pesky endurance riders are getting off too cheap when they are just running only the endurance....

I agree 100%. I brought this up in a different post - I think an endurance race should cost no less than a sprint... why would anyone runs 2 sprints when then can run 2 endurance races for much less $$ (assuming they're on a 600 or such)?

[T Baggins]

i was on the board when the the solo endurance races on sat were suggested and implemented, and if i recall is was to drum up some more cash for the club and the entry fees were $50

as the times have changed(5 years later), i think it's time to update the entry fees for the endurance races and raise it to the same $150 as the single race.

We are discussing that very thing on the Board right now. $150 may be too steep of an increase (more than double...) but an increase is in order for sure.

Maybe $75 for the first, $25 for the second so $100 for both?

Or $100 for the first, $50 for the second so $150 for the pair?

Or, if you're doing sprints too, let the endurance fall into the regular price structure? That way you don't get double-dinged on the first race of both... Ultimately this would be a decrease in fees for the guys who are already doing both - but maybe it would encourage guys who aren't doing both to consider it...?

[jmaher]

I understand the need to raise race fees. I race 2 sprints and both endurance every weekend (though that may change depending on how much fees go up). I also know there are a number of people that only run endurance due to cost. If the rates go up too much they may be priced out. IMHO it is better to make a little money rather than no money. I do not want to be priced out of the sport like it appears some were towards the end of the season.
Admittedly I am still somewhat new but I like the current race schedule and fully support it. I also agree with Tony that little changes are better.

Joe

[T Baggins]

Joe, what is your go - no go price for entry fees for the weekend?

Right now you're paying $90 end and $190 sprint - so $280

Is $325 a deal breaker? $300?

Just trying to get an idea...

[spideyrdr]

Or, if you're doing sprints too, let the endurance fall into the regular price structure? That way you don't get double-dinged on the first race of both...

This got a little longer than I expected but here it goes anyway.

Just throwing my hat in the ring to say I love this idea, Tony. I've run nothing but endurance except this last round because adding a single sprint race at $130 tripled my normal fees. I did it this last round as a way of 'helping' the club while finishing my first full year with a NovU race under my belt. I could see me trying to maybe do NovU, NovO, and MWEND next year but that currently would be $130+60+60 if I am not mistaken. That's a 4x increase in entry fees for what amounts to about 2x the number of laps. At least cutting a break for adding endurance to the sprint races would give some motivation to do both instead of one-or-the-other.

Also, let's not lose sight of the purpose of the endurance races from a club perspective as well as a rider perspective. The endurance races have novices and experts on the same grids. I saw very little chance of placing high enough to ever get any money out of it and it isn't going to get me my expert wings. It's experience for me, it's a 'practice session' for several of the experts, and for others it's their entire season. It had far more participation than some of the race classes - there was a grid of, what, 3 riders this past race weekend in one of the races. To me that makes so little sense.

I disagree with an approach that essentially says the club wants to get all riders paying about the same to race any given weekend. I'd liken that to taxing everyone the same dollar amount in order to balance the budget. Some riders only do 1 endurance race, some do Moham-style weekends, and everyone else is somewhere in between.

To get the income up, look at how to get people into MORE races, not just jack up fees on the existing classes. It's a 'value' thing. IMO the endurance races took a ding going into this season when the afternoon practice was eliminated. After finishing the morning practices around 10:30, I sit there for about 5 hours waiting for MWEND. Sure, you need to raise fees for all the races perhaps. But will raising the endurance fees significantly just decrease the value further?

The value of the novice combined practices were also suspect on occasion this year. Some weekends we got a huge number of novices out there, on liter bikes down to two-fiftys, all sorts of skill differentials - and once if not twice the practice session had to be red flagged. I don't consider jockeying with 60 other maniacs for a few laps prior to a red flag to be meaningful practice. I love my race weekends, don't get me wrong, but there were times the $60 endurance fee covers maybe 20-30 minutes of actual practice time and then a 30 minute race - broken up by a 5 hour sit in the sun, rain, and wind. I don't think I was undercharged on those occasions! Yes, I do realize I could hang around on Sunday and practice then too, but it just doesn't fit with my family. Saturdays were for racing, Sundays were for catching up on life. I am to blame for not taking advantage of that, though I am not sure how many practice on Sunday if they don't have a race (I know some do, I genuinely don't know how many).

Next year I would like to do some sprints, for sure, so I won't have as long of a stretch waiting, but even then there are some scheduling issues for some that would make it hard to do multiple races, so are there some opportunities there? I know there has to be an incredible amount of debate about when to schedule things, and looking at the schedule it probably is a good format but maybe there are opportunities there.

Finding out what's keeping someone from doing a 2nd or 3rd or 4th race might reveal a thing or two about perception ('no way could I do NovO then MWEND with only about a 20 minute break'), budgets ('my total budget for the weekend simply can't be over $500 all inclusive - I've got a family to feed - and anything over will keep me sidelined this season'), and time commitments ('I wold love to do NovU and AmU but I can only get to the track on Saturdays'). The economy has changed and the answers to some of these questions might also have changed in the recent years, who knows.

As always, I mean no disrespect toward anyone who keeps this club running. I just wanted to add some opinions and thoughts in order to keep my bench racing skills sharp in the off season.

Cheers,
Jamie

[gsnyder828]

From a pricing perspective, the relevant questions to me are:

1. Why is it ok to charge less for 2 endurance races than 2 sprint races?

(for perspective - I've been around long enough to remember when we started endurance races - 2003 I believe - and why the pricing was set so low. It was a method to bolster the safety fund to buy more air fence. That was it's sole purpose as I recall, and it was priced @ $50/$75 for 2 to get people to participate. This is back when all racing was on Sunday and Sat was practice only, so pricing was an incentive. No one "just" ran endurance back then that I recall)

2. If the price structure changed to level endurance races with sprint races, would the folks who currently only race endurance a) not race at all b) race fewer races c) race the same amount?

Only Option a) would appreciably lose the club $$ - but I think it's unlikely that many folks have built a whole program, with all the investment needed (even a shoestring one) just around entry fees that are <$100. If an extra $50-$100/weekend is going to cause them to completely drop racing as a hobby - then let's call it like it is, they should be putting $$ in their savings account, not racing.

I'm liking the idea of "a race is a race". Let them all drop into the normal pricing structure - that way there's no bias or incentive either way. People can run what they want...

[rforsythe]

I've been doing Endurance because it's cheap, not gonna lie. And to be honest, I stay away from the sprints except when I get an occasional urge to run them just because the "race counter" starts all over if I sign up for one, meaning it's a crapload of money for 7 laps when I just paid $80 for an hour of racing straight through and morning practice.

I don't know the solution so I won't claim to have one, but if lets say two endurance races was $100 and adding some sprint racing (which is really just 7 laps at that point, nothing more) was reasonably priced, I'd run sprints too. As it stands now the cost penalty for a mainly-endurance racer running sprint as well is just kinda steep.

[benfoxmra95]

Any business thats selling a product should be pricing it the same across the board.

I don't think the MRA should be walmart and have a sale on Saturday. I've run my own business for few minutes now, and I've made my most money when I've set a flat rate for everyone, no special exceptions like I used to do. I found that all business's that were my customer sending me work were understanding and adopting similar policies, because they found the few customers that got smoking deals were cutting into the profits and time too much to justify their giving that person a discount.

My view is, cost per race, and how much a rider should a rider pay for race.

The time riders are on the track the money clock is ticking on the ambulance, corner workers, management staff, track rental, insurance....

[T Baggins]

Thanks guys, this is the type of input and banter that is valuable to us...

Dirk Terrell is pulling stats from all the entries this year (and prior years) so we can assign cost data to actual entries and "KNOW" what an increase or change in pricing structure (overall, or just sprint or endurance) will do to revenues.

My gut proposal is (and has been) this:

Add $10 to the first entry on Sprints, so instead of $130, 60, 30, 20 it becomes $140, 60, 30, 20. That equals about $1300 - $1500 per weekend extra revenue.

Add $15 to endurance, so instead of $60, 90 it would be $75, 105. That equals about $700 per weekend extra revenue.

For the year (7 rounds) that's a $15,400 boost.

My fear is that if we make it $140 for endurance instead of the current $60 - that may kill off our endurance-only guys entirely. Endurance brings in $3 - 4K per weekend. We can't afford to lose that, and many of those guys are doing endurance ONLY right now 'cause that's all they can manage - but still want to stay involved and active in the club.

If they can't afford to continue Endurance, then we also lose their license revenue at the beginning of the year - which is the "kitty" we work out of until the season gets going full-swing.

Never an easy answer.

[gsnyder828]

So I'm clear:

Assuming 7 races:

- Sprint only riders' registration fees go up $70 for the season (7x$10).
- Endurance only riders' fees go up $105 for the season (7x$15)
- Sprint & Endurance riders' fees go up $175 for the season. (7x$25)

Do I have that right?

[spideyrdr]

So much hate for the endurance! Sheesh.

How about a different view? I only did this for one race weekend - round 3 - which was early enough in the season that the participation seemed high and may or may not be representative.

Doing really simple math, take each race and the number of competitors and multiply it by the MAXIMUM you could be making assuming early entry was paid. So, $130 for sprints, $60 for endurance races. We run about 20 minutes per sprints so you can run 3 sprint races per hour, and 30 minutes for the endurance (that's a little low because of grid up and cool down but for this analysis 30 minutes is pretty good) so you can run 2 endurance races per hour.

MW and LW run at the same time as do HW and open. Here are the respective 'hourly numbers' from round 3 given these really simple calculations:

(edit: I can't get this table to format properly so my apologizes)

Round 3, Saturday

• Race..........#.....Cost..Take...'Per.hour'
  NovU..........30....130...3900...11700
  NovO..........25....130...3250...9750
  F40...........23....130...2990...8970
  LWGP..........20....130...2600...7800
  MW/LWEnd......48....60....2880...5760
  250(Sat)......13....130...1690...5070
  MWSS..........13....130...1690...5070
  HWSS..........10....130...1300...3900
  OSS...........10....130...1300...3900
  HW/OpenEnd....31....60....1860...3720

HWSS, OSS, the 250 Sat race, and MWSS all brought in less money 'per hour' than MW/LWEnd based on this simple view. HW/OpenEnd is the lowest for that day, but only barely behind HWSS and OpenSS.

Since a large number of riders only do one of the endurance races not both, the $60 per rider is probably close to the average whereas I would speculate the $130 for sprints is high since most riders do 2, 3, 4 or more sprint races, so those races may average closer to $100 per rider or lower.

Even using that best case cost scenario of $130 per entry in sprint races, MW/LW has heavy participation and brought in more money than 4 other races and HW/Open was only slightly behind 2 classes.

If you were to make endurance cost as much as a sprint, I would guess that participation in the endurance races would drop sharply - why go out there and get my novice ass handed to me by some really fast and sometimes aggressive experts when I literally have nothing to gain? I can't get expert status running it, I can't (realistically) finish high enough to get any contingency money, and it's held so late in the day. I'd drop it in favor of one or two sprint races and actually compete for something meaningful against other novices and be done with my race day hours sooner. Other riders might just opt to stay home all together and just do a track day a couple of times a year.

The short of it is that if the MRA were Walmart, they are making money on the cheap HDTV from the "Endurance" brand because of the volume. Some of the high-end "Sprint" branded TVs do better, some do worse. Overall if they charge the same for "Endurance" and "Sprint" branded TVs they might find their overall bottom line severely hurt. Finally, since some people come for the "Endurance" and also get the "Sprint" it's a loss leader but helps keep people coming in the door.

[T Baggins]

So I'm clear:

Assuming 7 races:

- Sprint only riders' registration fees go up $70 for the season (7x$10).
- Endurance only riders' fees go up $105 for the season (7x$15)
- Sprint & Endurance riders' fees go up $175 for the season. (7x$25)

Do I have that right?

IF that's the direction we go, then yes - you have that right.

Maybe that's not the best solution, but it is "a" possible solution... the data will give us better insight.

That said - if the "bare minimum" budget racer spends $500 per weekend racing - and we cut a round out - then it's nets an overall savings for the season series of $430, $395, or $325.

[rybo]

One of the things I've been thinking about is the transitions we make into the club, this was the reason for SuperStreet.

As tracks and insurance got more expensive it became impossible for the MRA to run a "mid-season" race school. SuperStreet became that school with more than 10 SuperStreet riders from last year's "class" converting to full licenses this year (you were one of them Jamie!)

Now - that rider gets into the club and starts thinking about racing full time: Endurance is a natural stepping stone. A lot of practice and track time for not a lot of money.

What I *think* I know from my personal experience is that racing is more of a lifestyle than a hobby. Those who I know have stuck around for a long time adopted it gradually, in steps and understood the impact it had on their lives. Sarah and I do not go out for fancy dinners, we don't go to movies, we don't go on extravagant vacations - instead we go racing. I'm fortunate that she is supportive of it and that my boys love going to the racetrack.

If we take away the "value" based endurance races do you also take away one of the critical stepping stones? I know the novices I've mentored over the last couple of years have started as endurance riders and later adopted sprint racing - so my own anecdotal experience is that the endurance race is critical to setting the hook and engaging racers in a way that makes them willing to commit more dollars to the sport in the future.

[jeff healy]

I did use the endurance races this year as great practice time on the track in a race enviroment beings that I had not ever been to any of the tracks before but enjoyed the sprint races more (probably because I smoke and can't seem to find time to go to the gym and prepare myself for endurance races) but I will say that I would still pay an extra 10 or 20 bucks to do this. On a separate note, possibly opening up other classes to racers by broadening engine restrictions etc may get more people signing up for more races. I would race ST GTU next year as an additional race if I can ride my 848 in that class