The moral dilemma with cheating....

[DOUBLE A]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...

Glenn you know I can't read! :lol:

[Clarkie]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

A great idea and is done in a lot of series, but if someone turned up to the first race with a modified bike and was given the paint tech make it wouldn't be found. Big bore or high compression pistons can be 'hidden' from a borescope inspection by media blasting the face of the piston, the same way machining the valve pockets to allow piston-valve clearance when running a certain squish and retaining the desired cam timing is possible.

Stock clutch pressure plates can be machined so they 'look' stock when the clutch cover is removed, but work with an aftermarket slipper clutch that is installed under it. This 'may' of been done in the MRA years ago before most of the bikes came stock with a slipper clutch

Trap speeds (measured with a radar gun) wont account for rider weight, in the 125 and 250 Grand Prix classes they used to weigh the riders, when I raced as a wildcard at the Australian GP in 1999 Rossi and Melandri laughed their asses off when I got on the scales and I was around 145lbs, bastards!

Hammer, no one is acusing a particular rider or engine builder of cheating, but I am sure people wouldn't say you are cheating if you bought a bunch of beer and let people tear your bike down themselves one Saturday night, you might get all the parts back :lol:

[The GECCO]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

Good idea, and there is a myriad of ways to "seal" a motor after it's been inspected...the problem is that it has to either be torn down and inspected first, or assembled/sealed by a known, impartial third party. The expensive/difficult part is insuring the motor was legal before it was sealed.

[HAMMER]

I like beer ......

[HAMMER]

I was just saying that the 250 battles are some of the best of the weekend ... Up front and all the way thru the feild .. there doesn't seem to be ANY bike anywhere on the grid that are at all faster than anyone else's... No one is just disappearing at the front or blowing the doors off anyone ... I get passed almost every single time down the long straight ... And I can draft pass almost anyone also .... We just need more new riders who wanna turn ... The battles are fn awesome ..




Someone bring ME beer and a decent mechanic and there more than welcome to check out the turd fif.... Prob still oil in the air box from the oil over fill at ppir... And a dirty airfilter( tony@faster LOL ) .... As long as she's running for Sunday :P

[kamper11]

This is a topic that I would believe every single MRA rider has an opinion about. Great discussion thus far. My .02c... As the newest guy in the spec 250 class - Tony B addressed it perfectly - simply stating that in a spec class - its about the integrity of the class - and if there are "cheater" bikes - than the class becomes a "joke". I have no idea about the who, why and what the accusations may stem from - and frankly - don't know that I need to or want to - but sure would love to know that the rules are being followed.

Make no bones about it - right now - I am THE slowest guy out there on a 250. And will make no excuses about it being the bike - it's me getting used to the new bike, new racing, and frankly - battling with myself to get better at my ability. So - while I may not be close now - I'd like to believe that if I can truly improve my abilities - I'd be competitive and certainly in a spec class - that would be the promise and foundation. the bike is a common denominator, and the rider skill is the difference. There are some great skilled riders in this class - that's apparent!

In closing - I have no clue if anyone is or isn't - and certainly not here to point a finger or join a rumor-mill! I cant state how excited I am to be here, and looking forward to the last few weekends of the season! I'll close by re-iterating Tony's point - its a spec class - and if there is any level of cheating - we (the MRA) lose the integrity and intent of the class - and at that point - what is there?

[DOUBLE A]

I was just saying that the 250 battles are some of the best of the weekend ... Up front and all the way thru the feild .. there doesn't seem to be ANY bike anywhere on the grid that are at all faster than anyone else's... No one is just disappearing at the front or blowing the doors off anyone ... I get passed almost every single time down the long straight ... And I can draft pass almost anyone also .... We just need more new riders who wanna turn ... The battles are fn awesome ..

OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT WATCH VINTAGE!!

[PremiumBlend]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

Good idea, and there is a myriad of ways to "seal" a motor after it's been inspected...the problem is that it has to either be torn down and inspected first, or assembled/sealed by a known, impartial third party. The expensive/difficult part is insuring the motor was legal before it was sealed.

That's kind of where my idea was going... I assume this level of inspection would only qualify for very few races, especially at this magnitude. But something along the lines of what you are saying Gecco... the bike must be fully inspected by a 3rd party and signed off before that racer can even think of submitting an entry form. I guess one way to make sure no parts are swapped but still allow for some of those shade tree mechanics to build their motors is to have Bartman or someone use a special impression set and stamp verifications into the pistons and other parts as to verify those parts were used upon install. Again, just ideas...

[Clarkie]

Again, this thread isnt to place accusations on a rider/s or engine builder/s. Cheating is a part of motorsports, no not everyone cheats but there is always one or two people who like to push the rules into the gray area, and while it is pretty much just fun for them is pisses other people off and breeds contempt. It can be contempt for the rider/s or towards the club for not controlling it.

Trust me, every club has suffered from 'the old boys club' where if you know the right people things will get overlooked, the MRA in the past was no exception to this. Those who have been around the club for a while know what I am talking about and no it isnt worth even repeating, that was then, this is now.

People should just start thinking about how 'they' think it should work and present their ideas (in the correct format) to the rules committee. Every member in the club gets a chance once a year to have their say with the rules for the following year, make the most of it :wink:

The MRA is going from strength to strength while many other clubs are doing just the opposite, this is largely due to the Board Members efforts as well as all the volunteers that help a weekend come together. Now is your chance to have your input into the club, draft up rules and ideas to try and grow the club even further. Yes a lot of the ideas will get shot down, heck mine were last year, but a simple idea gets people thinking about things more than just doing the same thing year after year.

[Clarkie]

Oh, and I will buy the beer if Hammer lets someone tear his 250 down to the crank, puts all the parts in a bucket and mixes it up :lol:

[acrovixen]

Oh, and I will buy the beer if Hammer lets someone tear his 250 down to the crank, puts all the parts in a bucket and mixes it up :lol:

Gee, you REALLY love to kick a hornet's nest, don't you? :lol:

[HAMMER]

As long as she runs on Sunday ..... It's all you clarkie

[HAMMER]

As long as she runs on Sunday ..... It's all you clarkie

[slo lee]

In my mind this discussion says alot about how much people care about fair play and competition. My take . . . everyone cares a lot. I'm curious, the rulebook indicates how to make protests and specifies the penalties (pg 44). With the means to protest available what is the reason for this discussion? Is it that the cost of the protest is too high and people are not protesting? I'm new at this but I'm thinking that I don't want to add bureaucratic expense to getting a bike ready, for eg. getting an inspection and having it certified and then sealing it somehow so it can't be tampered with. I may be very wrong but I think most guys follow the rules for the most part. . . . and if you don't agree and feel strongly about it, follow through and make a protest. Seems like the penalties are severe enough both ways. My $.02.

[Bartman]

Clunkie you and I both know how hard it is to catch someone that does not want to be caught, and it is not like we are the AMA where you race one class a day and there is plenty of time to look over the top bikes and some mid packers. So when you have someone running mwss and hwss and mw enduro there is time to change stuff to no longer be ss legal and I can't do a teardown of any depth in between races so it has to be at the end of the day. I am working on a system now that may help but will just have to see how it works.
I do think the competitors need to be willing to step up and do a protest and the rules are clearly stated on how to do that, some of the issue over protests over has been people thinking that they had to say exactly what is illegal and I don't think that is right and I don't read it like that. If you want it torn down to the crank pay your money and we will see what we can find. If we find anything illegal you get your money back and if found legal your money goes to the guy to put his shit back together.
Bartman

[DUCDOC]

I am the top dog at Northern Colorado Euro & if you want an engine built it will be built as long as you can pay the bill! Not really concerned bout it being a cheater motor as I wont be riding it anyways. Hell I will build you an engine if we race in the same class! I have built engines for a former top 5 AMA Formula Thunder race team..... You know what people were cheating there too. I did not because my parts were coming from Ducati Corse & properly assembled just plain kicked ass & were legal!!!!!! :twisted:
Cheaters will always be cheaters!
And I will always be more than happy to take their money!

[chris nami]

I think if your a builder that's not part of the club...take money and build away, good for you. If your a member of this or any club, I feel you have an obligation to turn the cheater down or call them out. As a member of a club you are in competition with friends and racing enthusiasts, not pros and companies. This is not the AMA or world superbike or moto GP. Our livelihoods dont depend on winning and our kids don't go hungry if you don't finish first in MWSS...
Be a real racer! win by being better on the track not by paying or being paid to steal from your friends. Take some pride in who you are.
If I was to find out that a builder or a shop promotes cheating and is part of my club, not only would they never get my business, I would make sure that everyone I know would know what kind of shop or builder they are... if you can cheat and steal from your friends, what would you be willing to do to your customers!?
I know I can look my friends I the eye. -Bacon

[Clarkie]

Clunkie you and I both know how hard it is to catch someone that does not want to be caught, and it is not like we are the AMA where you race one class a day and there is plenty of time to look over the top bikes and some mid packers. So when you have someone running mwss and hwss and mw enduro there is time to change stuff to no longer be ss legal and I can't do a teardown of any depth in between races so it has to be at the end of the day. I am working on a system now that may help but will just have to see how it works.
I do think the competitors need to be willing to step up and do a protest and the rules are clearly stated on how to do that, some of the issue over protests over has been people thinking that they had to say exactly what is illegal and I don't think that is right and I don't read it like that. If you want it torn down to the crank pay your money and we will see what we can find. If we find anything illegal you get your money back and if found legal your money goes to the guy to put his shit back together.
Bartman

I totally agree Bartman, I am not saying the club/board needs to do any more than you are already doing. I just live two States away and I hear a lot of the grumblings, baseless accusations, and basic pissing and moaning about people cheating. This not only takes away from the sport, it also takes a LOT away from the riders who do well and arent cheating.

All riders go through cycles or when things click and come together. Some riders have some amazing talent from day one, or talent that crosses over from another sport. Sometimes a rider may make a change to their equipment (bike, tires, suspension etc) and all of a sudden they go a lot faster than people are used to seeing from them. It sucks when people just decide they are 'cheating' as everyone puts a lot of time and money into this hobby, and it is like a kick in the guts when you do well and people are talking about 'cheating' but wont back it up. Yeah I know it happens in most sports but the MRA has a 'reputation' amoung other road racing clubs regardless of what may be the actual truth.

Sometimes the history of a club dictates this, when I came to the MRA in 2006 I was warned by a few people who were racing at the time, about the blatant cheating (illegal slipper clutches etc) that went on in the MRA. Maybe do a better job of educating the riders about how to protest and what the cost is and then they can either put up or shut up. Heck even a page in the program explaining how to go about it, RTFRB as a reply doesnt always work as not everyone actually reads it believe it or not, this was shown earlier in this thread.

I also totally agree with Chris about engine builders having a responsibilty to the club. If engine builder's want the club to grow and prosper, which will keep customers being able to afford to go into their store, they shouldnt really say publicaly they dont have a problem with building cheater bikes if the customer can pay for it. ALL engine builders can cheat, but along with the risk of their rider being busted, the shop's reutation is linked directly to it. Public perception has a lot of effect on the sport of motorcycle racing, and the people/businesses invloved.

At AMA level where it is a professional sport (well used to be) sure go for it, but this is a hobby for 99% or people and a builder publicly saying they have no problem cheating if the customer pays for it sort of brings into question the legallity of any other bike that builder has built.....

The MRA was good to me, and while a lot of people say I am full of shit (yeah sometimes I am ) I want to see the MRA around for a long time. If the general consensus is the "cheaters will always be cheaters" then obviously I am wasting my time and I should just keep working on my tan here in Vegas

[AdamandNoahsdad]

I don't understand how the builder of a bike has a responsibility to the club to only build legal bikes. Isn't that like saying that a gun manufacturer is responsible for a drive by shooting?(or would that be the car manufacturer?) They both just supply a tool, how that tool is used is up to the person who purchased it. I feel that if a shop or person is building a race bike, and they know what class it is going to be raced in, they have a responsibility to the customer to know (or find out) what is legal for that class. If the customer insists on the bike being built to be illegal, whatever moral issues exist about cheating now fall on the shoulders of the customer. The shop is being paid to provide the best work and parts that it can. How that is used is up to the customer.
In our short time being involved in racing (3 years) we have definately ran into people cheating (yes, a kx100 looks exacly like a kx85 if you take the factory graffics off). We barely have enough money to race, let alone put up money for protest fees or build our own cheater bike. We had no choice but to race against that person anyway, and yes we did beat that person more than once. I have to agree with Cromer, it felt great!
Cheating to me is all about personal integrity. Some people have it, and some don't. The ones that don't sure are fun to beat!
From where we stand, we are looking at joining the 250 production class with a bike that we have $450 invested in. We will be racing against people with 10 to 20 times as much money wrapped up in their legal bikes and god knows how much wrapped up in illegal bikes. It doesn't really matter to us if they are making 2 or 3 or even 10 more horsepower than we are. The important thing is to teach my kids that they don't need to cheat, they just need to work hard with what they have available to them, which isn't much and probably never will be.
Ok, now for my possibly constructive part, what about random bike inspections? Kind of like random drug testing at certain jobs. Pick one bike at random each race and tear it down. If everyone who enters pays a small fee of say, $2 or $3 it should cover the cost. If you are found legal you get the dough to put your bike back together, if you are found to be cheating you lose all points, cannot race that class for the remainder of the year and have to put your own bike back together. The thought would be the same as a random drug test. Fear of being caught at random should make everyone want to be legal at all times.

[chris nami]

It's not my my belief that a builder has a responsibility to build legal bikes...I couldn't give a crap. I do believe that a member of a club has an obligation to be a stand up friend. If said builder is also a member of the club that he is building motors for... then yes, he is still on the hook to be a stand up guy! If I found out that my friend cheated against me or my friend/builder built a motor for another friend to beat me...he could expect a busted face...if your my friend and you steal money out of my wallet, I'll kick your ass! Same goes if you cheat me in a race...end of story. -Bacon

[benfoxmra95]

Pick one bike at random each race and tear it down. If everyone who enters pays a small fee of say, $2 or $3 it should cover the cost. If you are found legal you get the dough to put your bike back together,

I asked glenn today about how many people where entered in this class and he said around 10 plus or minus a few depending on weekend....

$3 x 15 riders = $45

not quite enough to tear a bike down to the crank

sorry man not picking on you, please keep your ideas coming, but $45 won't even get you a head gasket let alone labor fees etc... to properly tear down and rebuild a motor.

This 250 class has me scratching my head.

how is that you have to run a stock shock but can spend $500+ dollars on the forks.... seriously? wtf?

[Geoff85]

So this mentality has been going on for years everyone thinks they are the best rider, tuner,bike,builder, engine builder so if anyone beats them no matter what the reality is the other guy must be cheating! This is not only in this club it goes on all over. It's human nature if someone spends what they feel is a lot of $$ and someone beats them who maybe is riding a roach it could not possibly be because they got out ridden.... If everyone spent the time that it took to follow this thread and put it toward working on their bikes it might be worth 2 positions in the results.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Ben
I meant pick one bike out of everyone who raced that day, not just the 250 class. I was thinking on a larger scale for the fee and a smaller scale on the number of bikes being inspected.
We were sitting laughing/feeling bad last weekend because we were reading the posting about someone having new, trick fork internals for the 250s for $800. Someone made the comment that the price was 1/4 of what the whole bike cost. Its almost twice what we have into our whole bike!
I also agree with Geoffs last post. I knew I was never going to be able to afford the fastest best bikes for the kids, so I decided that they would have safe, fun bikes and hopefully develop their riding skills.
The kids still remember being at a track day at IMI two years ago while Geoff was there on his sumo bike. Thanks for helping inspire them to try harder!

[kamper11]

Oooooh Man - Adam and Noah on 250? Someone else to beat me!!!

I love it Mike - can't wait to see em out there! I'll try to keep up!

For what its worth - my 250 is to spec and no suspender mods at all - not even fluid altho I may throw $12 at a quart of heavy fork oil for next season -sure to shave 10 seconds :twisted:

[KFinn]

in today's current situation, how can someone afford to pay the fee if they can't even afford to show up for a whole season?

Just a thought