The moral dilemma with cheating....

[Clarkie]

Purely a discussion

If you raced, and you knew of someone that you didnt race against was cheating (hard facts not purely opionion), should you raise it to an official's attention?

If you were a business that a racer approached asking for 'hot mods' that would not be legal for the class the racer was intending to compete in, should you do the work? This is a little more complicated as the business also needs to make a profit, in business reputation is everything, even if the reputation is that you can build a cheater motor :lol:

Yes the MRA has a long history of fast/popular/well known racers cheating, heck the MRA probably has the worst reputation in the club racing scene in the entire US.

A few years ago Darren Luck (Florida club racer) was busted by AMA officials for using a GSXR750 motor in a GSXR600 chassis, in the AMA600 class, he was banned from AMA competition (not sure for how long). It's actually prett easy to tell by the note an engine makes (regardless of exhaust system) if it is an overbore if you know what you are doing.

When I raced the Aprilia Cup Series with Formula USA all the classes were dyno controlled, but then people started intalling hidden switches to change the ingition map to reduce the power for the dyno run, like the CBR1000RR and ZX10-R had to do to meet the EPA regs.

Having some sort of system where a racer can 'let an offical know' what is going on wont work, as how do you decide fact from opinion. Speed traps and a radar gun 'might' work but people get out of corners differently which effects top speed.

Spec racing? That doesnt work as I know (an engine builder admitted he just did what was asked/paid for, again, no names) there are people cheating in the 250 series, and no it's not my place to name them.

Moto2 is a good start as the engines are all controlled, BSB is going with spec ECU's, but this wont work for club racing because of the cost. So what is the answer, 'run what you brung' classes might work, but how do you know if a middleweight is really a middleweight bike? The can be bore AND stroked, or a bigger motor can be made to fit if you know what you are doing, the R71 was a perfect example. Dyno controlled classes, or at least making someone go on the dyno to see if you want to protest them? Nope, with electronics and programming these days it is easy to get around.

So how do you control the cheating that goes hand in hand in club racing? Group hugs and a pact at every event? One class, an 8 hour race, all in? Random teardowns to the crank? (but this time the racer wont be informed ahead of time so he can't "bring a stock bike that weekend" :lol: ). I dont have a clue how to control it, but I am sure other people may have ideas. At the end of the day people cheat, other racers who arent cheating walk away from the sport because they are sick of the cheating.

Discuss!

[glenngsxr]

I'm gonna say no, it is not the responsibility of the builder to say whether or not he/she built a cheater motor for someone. That person needs to make a living and people have to do whatever it takes to put food on the table.

When it comes to getting together with a group of folks and having competition against each other, it should make you cringe knowing that you did not beat someone fair and square.

There are cheaters all over the place in every league in every sport. Most of them don't get caught, sadly. I also think there is a moral code that becomes established in certain sports. If you are caught, you become an outcast and frowned upon, no matter who you are. Take golf, I would say no sport offers the chance to cheat as much as golf does, yet how many people are caught cheating every year (professional)? I can't remember when the last time was.

Is there cheating in the MRA, yep. Always has and always will be......until you get rid of the humans.

Glenn #62

[Clarkie]

I totally agree Glen, the builder was paid to do a service, and did his job. This is (should be) more about how do you control it. The old saying "you aren't cheating if you dont get caught" has been around for a long time, I want to know if anyone has any good ideas for how to catch cheaters, that doesnt cost a fortune.

Fuel testing is easy (and cheap) to do, it works in a lot of series, but it wont stop people adding aftermarket slipper clutches or in some cases big bore kits to their bikes. Personally I think Tony should buy 20 band new identicle bikes, race prep them, then the racers draw keys out of a bucket and get 10 minutes to adjust the controls etc, on pit lane in front of everyone, then race.

[jplracing]

agreed. I don't think the burden should be placed on the business owner. They are there to make a living. If a customer asks them to build a motor, there job is to build the best motor they can. If the customer then decides to cheat with that motor..well then that is on the customer not the builder.

[slo lee]

I'm not sure there is any easy answer to this dilemma. If you think about it the opportunity to take unfair advantage is not only in racing. Cheating on your spouse, taxes, business agreements whatever. It's all over the place. Why some people do it in some situations and not in others is pretty interesting actually. And how far does it go? If the motor isn't correct for the class, does the rider bump another rider in a turn because he can get away with it. Could be real dangerous IMHO. In the end we all have to sleep at night with our own conscience. That's what it means to be an adult. Some people avoid doing this. They don't have internal rules that guide them. They'll do things because no one will catch them. They're more susceptible to bending the rules. No one is watching them all the time. It's always interesting to me to see at what price each person will sell his or her integrity. We all intuitively know who we can trust and whom we can't. And, finally, for me, it's about trust. Do we value trust in one another. . . they won't intentionally hurt us; they will follow the class rules etc. I think the MRA has a community that does follow the rules for the the most part and treats each member with respect. I think the community is made up of adults who know the rules and know how to have fun. With competition there will always be grousing about who wins and why, but I can't imagine that being in a club where people don't respect themselves or one another enough to follow the rules could be much fun. The focus would just be on the rules who's following them and who isn't. Yuk. Sorry for the long winded response.

[glenngsxr]

This is a tough one for sure Clarkie. Like I said earlier, you can't stop it.

In my book, there are 2 different types of cheaters.
1) The person who blatantly breaks the rules to gain an advantage. They are betting that someone does not call them out.

2) The person who tries mods that may be illegal or just outside of the rules. I don't think this person is as concerned with getting caught as the first type. In fact, I am willing to bet a many of great mods have been discovered in this manner. It actually advances the sport and technology, which is a good thing, but still wrong.

There may really only be two ways to get rid of cheating.
1) Get rid of humans
2) Get rid of the personal relationships within the club. It's much easier to call a person a liar (cheater) from afar than it is to call a friend that same thing to their face. Problem is.....without the personal relationships built within the club, nobody will show up.

Cheating may be a necessary evil.

[Clarkie]

Cheating on your spouse

LOL I think running a SBK in a SS class in a little different from cheating on your spouse

Glenn I agree there is always a gray area in every sport, like you said, pushing the limits improves the sport and the technology involved. But when pushing the rules a little turns into blantant cheating to win a $10 trophy, and driving honest people (or people who cant afford the cost of cheating) away from the sport it is a problem.

There are some pretty creative people on here, what are some cost effective ideas to control/monitor the cheating? No racing robots isnt an option

[Clarkie]

I can't imagine that being in a club where people don't respect themselves or one another enough to follow the rules could be much fun.

LMAO welcome to the MRA :lol:

As an engine builder it become almost a game to see what you can do that people will never find, these are more just tricks than cheating. I used to pay Bart and Brian when TK was still around, to have some of these things done, trust me they work. Bart still does some of the things we figured out and they work awesome, make power, and are LEGAL in the rule book, and per the manufacturer specs. No I wont tell you what we used to do, he is the one that does them and should benefit from the knowledge :wink:

[The GECCO]

Take golf, I would say no sport offers the chance to cheat as much as golf does, yet how many people are caught cheating every year (professional)? I can't remember when the last time was.

Threadjack in progress....I've literally never picked up a club so I'm totally ignorant about the sport and I have to ask - how do you cheat at golf? If I read your statement correctly you're saying there are many ways to do it? How? You have a club and a ball, are these things regulated? If so, isn't pretty easy to spot something that's not regulation (these aren't real complicated items, here) Unless you're talking about moving the ball or shaving strokes, but I can imagine either of those things are essentially impossible at the professional level? Curious...

[acrovixen]

Glenn, are you up to something "questionable?" LOL :wink: Ask Jason Pridmore for some golf tips (not cheating LOL) when he's at HPR next week - he's a bona fide PRO these days.

[cromer611]

Cheating, I know plenty of people who cheat. But it feels sooo good when you kick their ass on the track with hardly any money in your motor.
In the end when I can't put tons of money into my bike like other in this club, I just go faster than the cheater behind me. Eventually the cheaters call you a cheater cuz they can't cheat any harder lol.
Its pretty funny actually. In the end if you have to cheat in a small club that hardly anyone knows, your pathetic.

[Clarkie]

In the end if you have to cheat in a small club that hardly anyone knows, your pathetic.

Couldn't agree more Eric. Do you think there is any way to break the cycle of cheating that has almost become a way of life for some people in the MRA? Changing the class structure, tougher inspections, tougher penalties? You know motorcycles inside and out, is there an easy/cheap way to try and control it?

True Spec racing would work, but the cost of controlling/monitoring it wouldn't be feasible with the cost of spec motors or ECU's, and dyno's are too easy to cheat now days.

The rules proposal thread is open for the 2012 season, and people should think about ways to try and control the stupid cheating that is going on in a couple of classes, I am just not sure there is a way.

Trust me, the MRA already has a reputation as 'that club' and I was warned about it when I arrived in 2006. Cycles are hard to break sometimes and just pissing and moaning about it over a beer (as I used to do) doesnt help change things.

[DOUBLE A]

what about restrictor plates?

[Clarkie]

Not sure, but I would 'think' that would lower everyone's power including the people that are in fact legal. The tracks (HPR and Pueblo) are safe enough to run 220hp superbikes on them, so safety isnt the issue like Nascar at some tracks. But how would you monitor some of the cheating? If you cant monitor it cheaply, you cant try and regulate it.

I 'think' this is why it was easier in Moto2 to have spec motors, teams lease the motors and the motors are sealed which makes it easier to control/monitor engine modifications, but electronics are open. In BSB they are going to spec ECU's to try and control the class more (as well as tighter engine rules) and I guess we will see how that works.

If OEM's dont believe in a club to control their classes, they are less inclined to support that club with either contingency (yes it has almost all disappeared) or rider support.

[DOUBLE A]

I didnt know anyone was cheating.... ROR is unlimited and at least the people I know that have mods dont run supersport... what are we talking about 250's?? I didnt think there was anything to do to those? Unless someone is using a 750 motor in a six I dont know about. lol Anyway I dont think its a huge lap time difference in a cheater bike than a noncheater bike with these guys their talent is what puts them in the upper etchelon right not the bike. But I guess I dont know the low down. Anyway practice is for cheaters :lol: & your cheating if your in bed by 8p.m. on saturday night ST! j/k haha

[Clarkie]

It's not so much about who is cheating, or who is getting paid to build their engines (they are just doing the job they were paid to do), it's about how to police it. I know quite a few racers who went crazy on their 600's and dont race the supersport classes any longer, because they have integrity, other racers have mods which are illegal for the classes they race, and they dont have any integrity. Racer's make a choice when they sign up for the races as to which classes they enter, some choose correctly and some dont care if they are cheating as they are convinced everyone else is cheating. It's a never ending cycle that started many years ago, just because someone is faster than you doesnt mean they are cheating :wink: It's also easy as a rider to back out of the throttle a bit down the straight so it doesnt look so obvious.

As Eric said, it feels good to beat someone who is cheating when you are on a legal bike, but I totally disagree about not being able to go faster on an illegal (or modified) bike, unless the mods weren't done correctly. I used to swap from my GSXR1000 Superstock motor to my GSXR1000 big bore Superbike motor in front of everyone, so people knew I was changing motors and hadnt 'forgotten' to change back to the SS motor. While I didnt go a lot 'faster' on the SBK motor (I didnt really need to), the lap times were a heck of a lot easier and as a result my tires and equipment lasted a lot longer.

I went through a lot of teardowns from 06-08 and while they were good, there are things people could have done that wouldnt have been found. How do you combat this (within reason), I am not sure there is a way that is cost effective. In case you were wondering, you can get a 6mm overbore for an EX250, not saying people are doing it, but I know it could be built so a simple post race inspection wouldnt find it :wink:

Now with the Rules thread open for rule suggestions, people should think about if they even want to have restricted classes (supersport, superstock, lightwieght, middleweight, heavyweight, open), how they are policed, or if they would rather piss and moan about how "they know someone is cheating" and not do anything proactive to try and stop it. The board members only do what is in their power to do, but unlike a lot of sports, the MRA members get a chance to shape the future of Motorcycle Racing in Colorado.

[DOUBLE A]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

[Clarkie]

Some clubs do this, it works well. It will stop people just pissing and moaning and it's like a put up or shut up situation, but people are still worried about the stigma of protesting people. People complain about the club/board not doing enough, now people have the chance to change things by submitting their rule changes and attending the rules meeting.

I went last year and I was very impressed with how it went down, even if my ideas werent passed :lol:

[DOUBLE A]

Somehow I think you knew we would arrive here at your last post in the thread :lol: , anyway it seems pretty serious. I would never exersize it, but thats just me. You would be gambling with probably $300-$400, and then you look like an asshole for protesting. But that may be just my .02. haha

Good Ideas though, I hope everyone gets involved in the rules this year! :lol:

[The GECCO]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...

[Clarkie]

(shhh.....Grasshopper is learning stuff, dont confuse him :lol: )

[benfoxmra95]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...

LMFAO....

where is the "like" button

[rforsythe]

LMFAO....

where is the "like" button

I'm sure it's in the rulebook somewhere...

[HAMMER]

Anyone who wants to tear down my 250 is more than welcome to ... I don't think schramster cares one bit either.... Do you even watch the races ? ... I mean we lean on each other for 20 plus corners and are side by side down the straights for 6 laps in a row ... I haven't noticed any super fast bikes? ... Well cezmats bike was kinda zippy ...lol

[PremiumBlend]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.