2-Fiddy 4-Hour Endurance

[dave.gallant]

Oh, now this is getting good.

(subscribing)

[d_mob]

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

NO!

Instruct slower traffic to simply stay on the racing line, wherever it may be (right/left). Tell them DO NOT, under any circumstances, attempt to "get out of the way". The key here is predictability. If the overtaking rider can predict where the slower bike will go, he can pass safely.

Few things scare me more than having a slower rider look back and see me coming because suddenly I have to wonder what he's going to to. If he does the correct thing (essentially nothing) I can get around him just fine, it's when he decides to "get out of the way" that things get sketchy.

I was saying that we should recommend the "keep right" thing in addition to the typical "keep your line at all times" unwritten rule.

However, I guess you are right ... Disregard that recommendation.

There have been times that I've taken a wider line in turn 3 making it easier to shoot out and take a slower rider on the right down the straight, which would cause an issue if we forced them that direction.

Disregard.................. Sorry ---

[The GECCO]

Findgold, my comment had nothing to do with Bart being the tech inspector. Just simply that you're not the only person in the world who has a few years of racing under his belt :roll:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Oh, now this is getting good.
(subscribing)

Me too ..

BTW, this month I've been roadracing for 22 consecutive years. (maybe one day I'll catch up to Ricky & Otis)

[hcr25]

I find it a shame that some of you are so thin skinned that my remarkds here offend
and a few of you seem to me to be biased against small displacement and slower bikes on the track.

And maybe something needs to change if everyone is in such fear of offending the tech guy! ](*,)[/quote]



Im not biased against small bikes at all. In fact i really like them. Want me to show you how fast yours could go??
Also not afraid of the tech, he also rides a 250
Not as fun as the WERA boards but ours is good sometimes :lol:

[Jon]

On the subject of slower traffic staying right/left or whatever. After racing for like ever. I've got to say that those few occasions where the slower traffic actually tried to get out of the way have been the scariest occasions of my short 21 year career.
Just try and hold your line and though it's maybe just an interpretation of what the real line is, at least faster riders can make a good educated guess as to where your going to go next....most of the time anyhow. :lol:

[HAMMER]

:P ops: ill race ... I'm not worried bout gettin corn hole'd .. ill out brake 7/10 "big" bikes in turn 4 at Hpr and turn 1 pueblo after I draft them at 100 mph .. not to worried ... they wil be watching out for me in the twisties ..... 8)

[benfoxmra95]

Big bikes racing against little bikes <----not a fan of it.

I seem to recall a class ror class champion having a crash with a little bike because of amazing closing speeds at Ppir one year.

Luckily no one was seriously injured.

Once a big bike is pointed on a trajectory and is at speed it's incredibly hard to change it's direction quickly. So when a small bike is darting around from one side to the other in the entrance of a corner it poses a problem I prefer to never have to deal with. And is one more variable that does not need to be added to the equation.

My opinion:

Sometimes segregation is a good thing, and there's a reason for SEPARATE classes for bikes and levels of experience.

Sadly the shrinking members of the club dictate we shovel them all together but there has to be some lines drawn between such large gaps in performance somewhere...

I doubt you'll find any top 10 ror gto riders who'll disagree with me on this. If there are I'd like to here their LOGICAL reasons for allowing small bikes to race at the same time as big bikes and why it does not pose a safety issue.

[polar x]

Big bikes racing against little bikes <----not a fan of it.

I seem to recall a class ror class champion having a crash with a little bike because of amazing closing speeds at Ppir one year.

Luckily no one was seriously injured.

Once a big bike is pointed on a trajectory and is at speed it's incredibly hard to change it's direction quickly. So when a small bike is darting around from one side to the other in the entrance of a corner it poses a problem I prefer to never have to deal with. And is one more variable that does not need to be added to the equation.

My opinion:

Sometimes segregation is a good thing, and there's a reason for SEPARATE classes for bikes and levels of experience.

Sadly the shrinking members of the club dictate we shovel them all together but there has to be some lines drawn between such large gaps in performance somewhere...

I doubt you'll find any top 10 ror gto riders who'll disagree with me on this. If there are I'd like to here their LOGICAL reasons for allowing small bikes to race at the same time as big bikes and why it does not pose a safety issue.

Well Ben, since you and I have held Top 10 a couple times in ROR and you asked for one that disagrees with you and (now a stretch ) LOGICAL reasons for that....Here I am and here I go.

As long as the bikes ALL BIKES stay on the race line(S) there is very little to be conserned with. How many times have you and I come up on a bike bike who parked it on the entrance of a corner :shock: it really should not matter the displacement of the bike, but the ability of the rider to do what we all think he will do.

The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly. When it comes to the corners, the good guys will be holding there own or now kicking our a$$ in the corner. And Hammer is right, he will out brake a large majority of the bikes out there. There are always slow people on slow and fast bikes, size really should not matter lol . ROR, RORU all of them have riders that are slower than the top dogs and pose a threat when they do something unexpected. Hold the line and stay the course and we all can get around each other safely. Now how much your ego can take when Hammer takes the inside line on the big bikes in the infield is open for discussion. :wink: But seriously, all this over something that already exist,and has existed for years, with others in this club regardless of bike size :roll: sounds like we are just looking for pre-race drama in my opinion. But I do agree that the big bikes are hard to change direction when we are on the throttle, and perhaps the only place that will be an issue is coming off the corner on the straight of ABC track. But that problem exist with the SV, 600 and 250s so again, its not that big of a deal if you set them up and they hold the line. Logical ???

And EVERYONE has the right to voice their opinion and fear no retribution. GOD knows I have pissed off MORE than my fair share of people in this group and this forum... :twisted: And never once has it affected me and I am still friends with most of them. But that Bart guy...god what a douche. :twisted:

[hcr25]

Chris, I agree with you for the most part but this is actually the problem
""The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly"" This is only somewhat true in my opinion.

Here is a example of what I think could be a bad thing. What happens when a newer less experienced rider on a 1000cc bike is going down the back straight at say 160mph. In front of him he is a lil ninjet 250 doing 90mph. The 1000cc rider pulls out from behind the 250 to pass him and at the same time the 250 does the same to pass the 250 he was drafting down the straight. Now there are two bikes in front of the big bike going 70mph faster. What does the big bike rider do now? Even the most skilled racers make mistakes.

We are club racers not professionals. For some of us last year the 4hr race was the only race they did all year in 2010. Even pro riders make mistakes. Look what happened in the 200 at the end and they were going the same speed.
Either way I will race the 4hr again, I like passing people :wink:

[T Baggins]

About scoring them separately - I'm a little torn. Based on personal experience, when club officials are personally invested in something there's a razor thin line between support and pandering.

I'm confused by this comment. First, I don't believe there is anything sexual in nature relative to this discussion or the prospect of scoring the bikes separately:

pan·der (pndr)
intr.v. pan·dered, pan·der·ing, pan·ders
1. To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer.

and nor do I believe that there are any panderers participating in the discussion (since Doohwayne is not racing, and wouldn't ride a 250 anyway...) :

n also 'panderer
1. a person who caters for vulgar desires, esp in order to make money
2. a person who procures a sexual partner for another; pimp

Who of the Board Members currently own a 250 and are engaged in this discussion? DMob was the one who started the thread about scoring them separately iirc.

Rybo sold his, I'm the only board member who has one at this point, and I've made no decisions on riding it in the 4 hour anyway. That's an awfully long time to ride a bike. More track time than I get in a year of racing in fact... :wink:

[polar x]

Chris, I agree with you for the most part but this is actually the problem
""The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly"" This is only somewhat true in my opinion.

Here is a example of what I think could be a bad thing. What happens when a newer less experienced rider on a 1000cc bike is going down the back straight at say 160mph. In front of him he is a lil ninjet 250 doing 90mph. The 1000cc rider pulls out from behind the 250 to pass him and at the same time the 250 does the same to pass the 250 he was drafting down the straight. Now there are two bikes in front of the big bike going 70mph faster. What does the big bike rider do now? Even the most skilled racers make mistakes.

We are club racers not professionals. For some of us last year the 4hr race was the only race they did all year in 2010. Even pro riders make mistakes. Look what happened in the 200 at the end and they were going the same speed.
Either way I will race the 4hr again, I like passing people :wink:

I think you sorta covered your own reason why they should be allowed. Shit happens, we all know it and accept it. We all make mistakes and all levels do it. The faster we are the BIGGER the cost of said mistake. But I keep going back to what everyone else says...HOLD YOUR LINE and let the party passing be responsible for making a safe pass on a rider that hopefully holds his/her line. Regardless of what bike they are on. But hey, we all make mistakes... OH and I like passing people too so I will be in it if I have it off from work. 8) 8)

[dave.gallant]

This discussion is now officially boring.

Can we go back to telling Glenn he doesn't know shit?

Or how about telling Bart he needs to buy some more 1/2" sockets and skip that metric crap.

And damn it Ben, no one invited your German-Cup-Series-4wheel-Apple-Laptop-Carrying self to this discussion.





(was that good enough to send the thread back to the gutter? :shock

[nobasin]

i feel inclined to chime in (but this is going to be a bit long...sorry) only because as a fairly inexperienced racer (just 2 full seasons) of middle of the pack speed, i think i represent a large segment of this club that sits in the middle between the super fast and highly experienced and the slow and inexperienced (or slow and experienced in the protagonist of this story's case).

what i think is the biggest issue here is ultimately grid size from my persepctive, and maybe less so, but certainly related to it, the disparity in bike speeds. here's a shot of the start of last years 4 hour. (to the photographer from who's site i took this screenshot last year, i don't remember who you are, so i apologize for using this without permission...PM me and i'll give you credit of course).



for most of us, and even the experienced riders, that was a big fucking grid out there last year. until there was some separation and attrition, i think everybody had a hairy moment or two out there trying to get through some crazy mixed traffic jams early on. i kind of look at the track like the nucleus of an atom...and the motorcycles are the protons and neutrons circling around that nucleus on their fairly predictable trajectories. but at some point, the more protons and neutrons circling, the chances of collisions go up, because even though we can usually predict where those particles are going to be, they sometimes behave in unpredictable ways. at some point, all systems reach a critical mass with shit like this and i guess the question is how many more bikes (to an already 60+ grid) can you add to the HPR atom before you pretty much guarantee there's going to be collisions? it happens at the subatomic quantum level, at the level at which we exist, and at the level of stars and galaxies...shit collides when there is a lot of it crammed into space and it is moving at varying speeds.

so i don't know what that critical grid number is, but assuming pretty close to the same amount of people want to do it this year, and we have a handful or more of new ninjettes, and a few visitors because the word is out that this is a great track and a great race and all of the clubs PR efforts bring a whole lot of new interest, and blah blah blah...70 bikes? 80 bikes?

when you have some of the fastest people and most experienced people in this club raising concerns and making relevant comments about safety issues, i think that is probably an issue worth discussing and exploring as respectfully as the forums allow, until it inevitably degenerates (or evolves, depending on your perspective) into either some people making fools of themselves, getting smacked down, or posting up some of the funnier shit i've read in any forum.

I would hope that the board will use their wisdom and the collective wisdom of the many experienced riders in the club to figure out a way to keep this particular highly unique (for our club at least) race, safe. (not suggesting that it wasn't safe last year, just saying that rider safety should always be the #1 priority with variables that we CAN control). if that means limiting the grid to N# of bikes, then maybe that's one possible solution.

But i suppose in the end we all have the choice to race in it or not. I totally agree that we all accept the risks of this sport and that shit does indeed happen, even when everybody is doing everything right shit happens (bikes blow up, critical parts fail), but i think it is incumbent on the club to provide the safest possible race environment they can. I can tell you for me, if that grid were to get much bigger, i'd simply do my 1 lap to get my points and not put myself out there if i felt that it was simply too crowded to be safe. i love racing, i love competing, but i still want to get home in one piece at the end of the day if i can, and at some point with the numbers approaching a very realistic grid size of 70+ riders, holy fuck that is a big grid, i don't care how much experience you have.

but i'd also be bummed as all get out if i did indeed choose to "opt out" after a lap because of safety concerns, because damn if that race wasn't the most transcendent motorcycle experience i've ever had...blasting down the front straight with the sun setting right in front of me at 7:30pm, weird orange alpenglow all over the fields adjacent to the track, seemingly utter silence and peace and tranquility, even through total exhaustion and fatigue, moving down the straight tucked in, machine, human, physics, environment, all in perfect harmony for 5-6 laps while the sun set...truly, truly amazing.

[hcr25]

See what happens, the first time i get pole position in a huge grid you cant even see me in the picture!

Chris, I am not saying they shouldnt be allowed. I know shit happens and I dont mind seeing a bike flipping through the air, as long as the rider walks away unhurt. I have crashed more then most in the club and a good crash could be awesome to watch.

Here is a question, why do we limit the number of novices that are allowed in a race? we have not done this for a few years now but if we had 50 show up tomorrow for novice gtu we would have heat races and only let 36 or what ever the number is race at once. If we let racers race, they hold the line blah blah blah. It should not be a problem how many are in the race right?

[rybo]

Here is a question, why do we limit the number of novices that are allowed in a race? we have not done this for a few years now but if we had 50 show up tomorrow for novice gtu we would have heat races and only let 36 or what ever the number is race at once. If we let racers race, they hold the line blah blah blah. It should not be a problem how many are in the race right?

Mike,

To answer this, a lot of it was done in the days that we raced at 2nd Creek and PPIR more becuase the tracks themselves are smaller. I'm not sure if was an AMA guideline or an insurance requirement, but only X number of bikes were allowed per linear mile of racetrack ( I don't know the number off the top of my head, but am sure that Glenn or Tony know). Pueblo and HPR being larger circuits more bikes are allowed on the track. We abided by this guideline for the 4 hour endurance in 2010 and will again in 2011.

s

[gixxermike]

See what happens, the first time i get pole position in a huge grid you cant even see me in the picture!

Dude I can see the orange of your left arm :lol:

[jmaher]

I see me. I think more pictures should be taken from the back of the grid.

Joe

[benfoxmra95]

you know that nervous/anxious feeling you get when your about to start a race? do you ever get that by just looking at pictures of a race or watching a race?

weird...

on a side note, for the novices, being nervous/anxious is completely normal and should be welcomed/embraced. this is your bodies preparation for "fight or flight" its a heightened state of being where adrenaline is being realeased and your nervous system is being primed for out of the ordinary situations where danger is involved. Under normal circumstances this feeling should melt away within a very short time after taking the green, and you be move into a relaxed state where your mind is fluid with your body. if you find that you are still in the nervous state for several laps or even the entire race you really need to work on relaxing, being overly "tweaked" during a race could cause over reaction.

ok, back to toting my apple laptop and looking at squiggly lines for insanely priced 4 wheeled german spec race cars.

[oldtimer]

I remember hearing about this race from Bart. And there he is on the very last row!

He said they ran out of cones to indicate grid rows and the back group just blobbed the starting grid.

[Bartman]

That is not a picture of the 4 hour, that was middle and light endurance from the last race but the point still stands of just how big the grids are. Part of the problem of the 4 hour launch was all one wave and it suprized the hell out of me when I was getting passed into the first corner as I was on the last row of the front grid.

[Throttleroller277]

That is not a picture of the 4 hour, that was middle and light endurance from the last race .

I was thinking the same thing, we didn't have all of the 250's at the 4 hr in 2010....but like you said... not the point

[Desmodromico]

The real question is if Ninjettes will be allowed to "Rollie"!

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=284992

[nobasin]

sorry, my mistake on the pic. that is in fact mw/lw endurance from race 8.

[HAMMER]

That was a sweet race ... I was in the last row with b man ....I think I got like 12 th or somethin on a freekin duce fif ... I'm sure someone can look and see what I got .. but I never felt like I was over crowded .. I like having huge grids .. I remember my novice year having to heat race to start in the back of a 48 bike grid .... and finishing top 5 ... that's a lot of traffic ... good ol days ...