Originally Posted by dave.gallant
grrrrrr....... the air cooled twins already have 300 classes they can race in
GO AWAY!
Originally Posted by dave.gallant
grrrrrr....... the air cooled twins already have 300 classes they can race in
GO AWAY!
Ben Fox- http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2..._Taimotive.gif
"I'd rather be quick than fast"~Me
MRA #95
2006/2007 MRA VP of Rules and Tech
2008 ROR #10
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Here it is again. This is probably the most approriate model for the class, plus some 675's. (See below)
Jim is right. The only bike that doesn't really have a class, that is still in production is the 848. If Ducati would stop making up random weights and HP for their bikes, the interweb would be a good source of facts. (Just for you, Ben, from the specs listed for the 848).
However, there are many bikes in the club that would fit in a class like this that don't 'fit' well in the current structure of "under 650, spec SV" or "unlimited" twins. That's all that was being discussed before Ben and Bart got into a pissing match about who could built what cheater bike
And, yes, Ben, your list of bikes would all be a great addition to the class except the 996 with a 1020 kit (?). Really? After you stated "under 1000cc"? I thought you were getting the idea here...
Utahsba Twins GTO class structure
a) Up to 430cc two or more cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
b) Up to 550cc two or more cylinder two stroke, if frame is from a motorcycle manufactured for street use in North America
c) Up to 550cc single cylinder two stroke, unlimited origin
d) Up to 1000cc two cylinder four stroke four or more valves per cylinder, liquid cooled, except the Ducati 999R and equivalents (Ducati 999 is legal in this class; Ducati 999R is not)
e) Unlimited displacement air cooled, one or two cylinders
Originally Posted by benfoxmra95
Well, then they get the boot.
I honestly don't care.
dave@MotoSix DOT com | MRA #31, WERA #311
Originally Posted by snowblaze506
i edited out the 996 with 1020 cc's well before you posted this post, you were probably typing it at the same time, I had a slight moment of trying to sneak in something that i may have laying in my garage
but again that was under the proposed "SPECIAL" rules write in bikes where certain bikes are allowed.
BTW, and this isn't sarcasm, but who are you? I actually don't know alot of peoples nicknames on here, and there's no name in your signature...
thanks
Ben Fox- http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2..._Taimotive.gif
"I'd rather be quick than fast"~Me
MRA #95
2006/2007 MRA VP of Rules and Tech
2008 ROR #10
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one last thought then i gotta go.
the middleweight class with 855cc limits will also give a good place for these bikes to race and get away from the 1000cc air cooled twins:
ducati 750ss (aircooled 2v)
ducati 800 (aircooled 2v)
ducati 851's (4v liquid)
i also think this class should have a minimum limit of 748cc. the sv's have their home, they can stay there.
the philosophy of this class, is middle, middle middle. nothing else it's a home for twins and triples. no inline 4's
with that phliosophy in mind and class limits of 748-855cc's then i think you have a solid class with no grey areas that solves many problems for "in between" bikes and doesn't create problems.
Ben Fox- http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2..._Taimotive.gif
"I'd rather be quick than fast"~Me
MRA #95
2006/2007 MRA VP of Rules and Tech
2008 ROR #10
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www.FOXPERFORMANCEENGINES.com
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Ben no reason to regret bringing up the rulebook, can't fix if we don't know that its broken and yes it needs to be in its own thread so I will start one later.
We had thought to include some of the older less competitive 1000s to if nothing else fill the grid and I don't think that any of the ones we were considering will be to fast, the problem with the Ducks is it is way easy to just do a motor swap with something that is not supposed to be there so that is one reason we did not include most of the bikes on your list.
It would be good if someone posts on a topic for us to know who the hell people are, I am on here all the time and still don't know who most of you are.
Bartman
G' damn I didn't ever mean to start such confusion and uproar by building a Bastard bike like I built. This Pierobon has caused problems in three clubs as it stands, 1)The MRA, 2) The USBA and lastly, 3) The CCS Florida, where I recently raced at the Race of Champions. There, various riders were frantically all perusing the CCS rulebook and were said to be planning on protesting me for legality should I actually win a race, I didn't but came close, They I remind, you were all riding Bimotos!
My plan for next year's to race with the MRA in ROR U and Supertwins GTO, but doubt I'll win against the 1098's or RC 8'S but I'll give it my best shot.
In the USBA in Twins GTO, KOM U and maybe Supertwins if it's decided to have such a class and in CCS in whatever class they deem my bastard bike still legal in.
The funny thing is, at the end of last season, I retired. I changed my mind only after deciding to get a really cool and fun trackday bike and going to Firebird and doing a trackday. Then I started my pursuit of yet another year of beating my head against oh, I mean racing. :lol:
Anyhow, they'll always be ongoing discussions of how to create great racing but admit this year I found it and hope next year with the creation of new classes, amendments to others that we all will again, but there's never ever a guarantee. So while I respect all who are posting and all the worthwhile discussion, I'm with Tony and I got me a big old bag of popcorn because this is getting good. My FO 42 presently makes 103 HP at 5400 odd feet elevation and weighs according to CCS/Florida's Intercomp Scales, 324 lbs with 2 gallons of gas roughly. The riders losing weight due to x wife and her but is glad to again have the MRA and it's membership as friends!
Rage on everybody,
Hey Jon, meant to post this earlier, but congrats on some strong results in the Southeast last month. 3 podiums. On a bike that would be great for this class, but we might have to add a $10,000 claiming rule.
Casey Smith MRA #75 (For Ben)
Jonny it is more than just your oddball, if they all had the same displacement it would be no issue, but with aircooled and four or two valve or pushrod and every CC under the effen sun it will always be a issue.
That's the list of bikes I'd like to see. You're not going to have any problem filling the grid with these bikes at all because people will ride up on the SVs. Keep the 1000s in GTO.Originally Posted by dave.gallant
I find it kind of stupid that when a bike becomes out dated we should just let it run down a class. Just an opinion.
carl
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Look at it this way Carl, when a 600 gets old it can still race in middleweight with a reasonable chance. Now that we have 1200cc twins not only is your bike getting older but it is getting smaller as well so is it unreasonable to modify the rules to let these people have a home as well.
We had people stop running the SVs due to 749r ducs running GTU, how many people stoped running RCs and TLs or even older ducs 916 to 998s with the advent of the 1198 and the RC8R.
We plan on letting the 675 come and play as well as some others but the 675 has a home where it fits very well a lot of these others do not anymore.
I understand where Brewer is coming from about making rules for obsolete bikes but if we can get more people to bust out their old twins to come out and play.
Only to a point. I don't think a CBR600F or a YZF600 are very competitive these days. Nor do I think there's anyone complaining that they need a new class for their Ninja 600.Originally Posted by Bartman
I think that's just part of racing. I had to go from a TL1000S to a TL1000R to a RSV1000R to a 1098R since I really like racing a big twin and I want to be competitive. I wouldn't have had to keep upgrading (i.e. spending money) if 1) I didn't care so much about racing twins or 2) I didn't care about being competitive.Originally Posted by Bartman
I just think it's a little too self serving to say, "I have a 6-year-old bike and I demand you make rules so I can be competitive."
That's exactly why we have Modern Vintage, right? Are we trying to make this new class a pseudo-vintage class?Originally Posted by Bartman
Will someone in thunderbike make a mess in their panties if one of these show up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rq3m_mk6KA??
I would mess my panties just getting to see one in person. What a sick bike.Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer
dave@MotoSix DOT com | MRA #31, WERA #311
No one has "demanded" anything. Discussion was started about having a class structure similar to Utah's, (TwinsU, TwinsO, and Supertwins) with a WERA twist of allowing triples in with "middle weight' twins (above 650cc to 1000cc). Some have gotten caught up in the semantics of class description, middle weight vs. a "middle" displacement class (ie MRA Heavy Weight).
Build one, Jim. Race it in TwinsU, as its only a 550cc. You and Jon can get a couple more guys and have your own class, Formula Boutique.
Good point and you're right, "demand" was too strong. The point I wanted to make is that consideration of old bikes for this class confuses the issue. It seems the main reason might to make sure we don't inadvertently allow one that has a huge advantage. (999R .. BTW, Pat's is one sweet bike)Originally Posted by snowblaze506
:-) .. You know, for all the talk of expensive racing, the biggest cost of my Duc has been how much I bought it for (I got a rippin' deal, though). As far as operation goes (tires, fuel, oil, brakes, clutch, suspension freshening) it costs about the same as any other bigger bike, with 1/2 the number of rods, valves, injectors, and pistons.Originally Posted by snowblaze506
Just don't break or crash it. :shock:
I've been thinking a lot about this class for a few reasons, not the least of which is that my bike is eligible for it.
I understand the point about technology marching on and the need to update machinery in order to stay competitive, and we have classes for that. Twins O is a good example, as are any of the supersport classes as is ROR. Older machinery currently has modern vintage, and that's a good thing too.
The economy hasn't been good for racing. While I personally could have gone and bought a new bike a few years ago and tried to stay competitive that way, last year and this year that simply isn't an option. Would the club rather have me go spend my money on a new bike and flake out half way through the season, or keep my old misfit and come racing in one more class?
There are a variety of formulas that yield close racing and Ben has added to a list of bikes that may work well in this class. We have classes that are displacement based, so why not try a class that has some displacement guidelines AND a list of acceptable bikes that don't fit those guidelines? There could be an exclusion list too of bikes that aren't permitted in the class too (Pat or Mike Pettiford's 999R's come to mind).
There is always going to be someone who is either clever enough or rich enough to build a bike that is at the limit of the rules, this class will be no exception just like every other class is no exception now. Ben and Bart and Aaron and several others on here certainly have the skills and or the resources to make "class killer" machines.
Looking to the AMA and their formula for Daytona Sportbike a couple years back (I'm sure done with a spreadsheet, and a lot of empirical data) the Aprilia RSV was classified with the 600's. It didn't gain any kind of huge advantage over those bikes, so I would certainly consider that it doesn't have a huge advantage over a 675 or an 848. If you build it to "brewer spec" it's a different story, but that's easy to prevent in the rules. Jason Kingham brings an older RSV and races it in modern vintage and twins O....my 748 / 850 is competitive with it, I wouldn't say that bike is massively out of place in this class.
Anyways, back to my original point - why not create a misfit class? What is there to lose?
scott
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So where exactly if say I wanted to race my Shepherd 1000 would that thing fit? It's in pieces these days but I had considered actually racing it again but I can't imagine it being Modern Vintage legal. At the time as with the Pierobon, I imagined it fitting into various classes but it being basically a gran prix spec bike stuck to Twins and well twins classes. Is that still the case?
That Terry Shepherd bike is still in my top 3 bikes of all time. I don't care if it has a Suzuki lug in it -- it is still so fricken cool.Originally Posted by Jon
(It would be legal if they allow 1000cc twins in this class BTW. I am not sure if they will or not however...)
dave@MotoSix DOT com | MRA #31, WERA #311
As the Suzuki TLR was originally produced from 1998 until 2003 but never updated except for bold new graphics. I would imagine that it's modern vintage legal as well as my frankinbike Shepherd rendition. I will wait and see what's decided with this new Thunderbike class and I hope I still have something fitting come 2011.
It's sad for those of us who have raced these less common bikes to see them be out shadowed by modern technology and have to park em while faster bikes come out but that's goes with the territory of racing.
Hell, at this point even the 1198's have pretty much unless beaten with a money stick, been deemed obsolete and that's sent Ducati back to the drawing board for a new bore/stroke configuration if they wish to return to the competitive edge they have enjoyed in WSB. For the lowly club racer, he's left wondering what to do with his overpriced, under performing Italian artwork. At least at the end of the day, I know my Shepherd 1000 can be immortalized on a shelf within the Barber Motorsports Museum. I've just got to find someone to come up with the match for the Glaefke Racing Blue so that I can powdercoat the frame and make it proper for display.
She's not a trophy Jon, she is a race bike. RACE HER!!Originally Posted by Jon
dave@MotoSix DOT com | MRA #31, WERA #311
We'll just have to wait and see as time and money dictate what I'm going to be doing/racing come 2011 but as my sons and their summer is of importance too, we'll have to see if I race at all. It will be season 21 and after 2010 and my success with the Peirobon I'd like to continue on that. I'm working to get more performance out of her and her rider still and have a few things up our sleeves so we'll see. I if I manage to get the Shepherd bike back together may have to bring her out and do a trackday or two. The last time on her I managed to set a track record in 07' though it only lasted a bit it showed she's a pretty tamely beast. Though then again with TL engine parts more than likely drying up, I do need to keep an eye on that as well.
Jon, let me know if you need any. Dwayne and I have more than just a few lying around.Originally Posted by Jon
PM sent and my apologies for getting this of subject.
I would love to see that beast back out on the track!
Fred SpongeButt Slowpants Roth
MRA811
I may be old, I may be slow, but..... aw rats, I'm old and slow.
Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' BrewerY'all have been arguin' about the rules so much you forgot to read them! Thunderbike would only be the start of the ruffled delicates. That little twin is already legal in every GP based class the MRA runs including all the way down to Colorado Class (aka Formula Boutique). It weighs roughly the same as Jeff Winter's RS450, and has a 1/3 more horsepower. There isn't a class in the MRA where a better nuclear weapon can't be developed armed with a money cannon. So why not try making a list of acceptable bikes for a new class with a perceived performance parity? If people don't like it, they won't show up, right? :-kOriginally Posted by snowblaze506