"Thunderbike" aka Misfit GP (MW removed from name)

[T Baggins]

Thank you Casey for so quickly understanding and campaigning for the true intention of the class.

parity and competition = frickin FUN!

I have no doubt that this class will be successful and well attended!

[benfoxmra95]

Only one problem there Benji, Twins GTO is now a 1200cc or more twins class with the Duck and the KTM RC8R. So how about we call it Heavyweight Twins so everybody that has a heavyweight twin has something of a chance.
This has always been the problem with the twins class, instead of making a better bike they just make them bigger, it is effin bullshit. When honda was gettin their ass handed to them by ducati what did they do, they built a 1000cc twin to kick ducatis ass. They did not make there 750 four into a 900 or some shit and then bitch and complain to get the rules changed they beat them with in the rules.

Bartholomew,

honda barely, barely, won 2 wsbk titles, one title only because haga tested positve for drugs and edwards took it, and the other title was down to the last race and a winner take all between edwards and bayliss, pretty close racing when a wsbk title is determined at the very last race of the season and two riders are tied for points. Hardly the asskicking your talking about not sure what racing you were watching but honda never dominated the ducati. and if you talking about the one year that hayden won in ama, i seem to recall it was only due to consistentency because mladin made some mistakes and the ducati effort was not "factory" backed at all, with gobert riding "when he showed up to the races" for ducati austin out of texas which was a very limited race program.

The way i see it is honda gave up on their twin just like suzuki because they couldn't keep up with ducati even when ducatis were 1000cc.

Sounds like we just need to divide up the twins into 40 freakin groups.

[benfoxmra95]

Bart and Ben, you guys should be lobbying for all the old bikes with crazy mods, more $$ in your pockets! Everyone seems to assume the goal of the class is to cheat, I mean according to the rabble on here someone will show up with an 848 badged 1098....was I really racing against liter bikes in 600 frames all year? The plot thickens...

Regardless of what everyone brings to play I gotta say Hot Carl could be the early favorite, I'll happily bring up the rear and try to learn a few things.

Im not saying the goal of the class is to cheat...

Im saying the middleweight guys like munch on the 749r were getting kicked out of smaller classes and now are getting their own class, but with the stipulation that they may have to race against 1000cc bikes that could possibly make 150hp. your fixing one problem and creating another at the same time.

[benfoxmra95]

Oh and one last thing, about the 1200cc displacement.

You show me one 1000cc twin that's capable of making 190hp, at the wheel. like a suzuki and i will never post on this forum again!

The reason for ducati needing 1200cc is that even at 1200cc they barely make 190hp on good fuel.

so why should ducati have to stay 1000cc and race against suzuki's that can easily go 190 and stay 1000cc's? when a 1000cc twin is only capable of 170 at best?

Save the that whole propaganda wsbk ducati is a bunch of whiner shit for someone that doesnt' have a freaking clue about engines and what they make for power.

[dave.gallant]

Screw you all.

I am told this is not a competitive motorcycle either!



Thunderbike Legal??

[Hotrod]

Screw you all.

I am told this is not a competitive motorcycle either!



Thunderbike Legal??

Why, yes... That is very comparable to a Trumpet 675 or Pierobon! As a matter of fact, I believe that a TZ would have an unfair advantage over it, so lets ban TZ's from the MRA entirely!

[Bartman]

Ben at no time did I say anything in this thread about the Suzy 1000 VS the Duck 1200, at present we are talkin about twins and what to do with the old 1000s that have no chance against the new 1200s. I am guessin that with about the same amount of money you can make 749r 848 TL1000 RC51 Milles make similar HPs so putting the older 1000 in makes no difference.
On the subject though Ducati is capable of making a 4 cyl motorcycle that is competitive, they just choose not to for superbike. Seems to me that a few new upstart superbikes came out in the last few years and they are 4cyl and they have done quite well. Given a hard and fast set of rules in moto GP Ducati made a 4cyl V4 when they could just as easily made a twin.
As for honda kicken ducatis ass what I meant more than anything is that honda was willing to play ducatis game to show how much better a 1000cc twin was than a 750cc 4. They did not change the game they just changed how they played it. Now I am not saying that running a1000cc twin against a 1000 cc 4 is fair but a 250cc bump is to much. There is more to look at then just HP numbers, the way twins and 4s accel is different, the handling is different so how well a bike works is more than just the sum of its horsepower and torque.

[T Baggins]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

[dave.gallant]

I really don't give a damn who or what is legal.

All I want to know is who is going to give me a cheater bike to ride in this class next season???

[Bartman]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

Thats why I am here Tony, strictly for entertainment value plus it is fun to push Gentle Bens ducati button. We have to do something in the off season to keep warm and discussing the ever present Twins problem just happens to be the current topic. :lol:

[benfoxmra95]

bart:

Ben at no time did I say anything in this thread about the Suzy 1000 VS the Duck 1200

No you didn't say anything about suzuki's, but you did say plenty about how ducati can't make a "better" bike only make it bigger. and you called it "effin bullshit"

Only one problem there Benji, Twins GTO is now a 1200cc or more twins class with the Duck and the KTM RC8R. So how about we call it Heavyweight Twins so everybody that has a heavyweight twin has something of a chance.
This has always been the problem with the twins class, instead of making a better bike they just make them bigger, it is effin bullshit. When honda was gettin their ass handed to them by ducati what did they do, they built a 1000cc twin to kick ducatis ass. They did not make there 750 four into a 900 or some shit and then bitch and complain to get the rules changed they beat them with in the rules.

Thats why I am here Tony, strictly for entertainment value plus it is fun to push Gentle Bens ducati button.

yeah, you know what, you are pressing my buttons, smart ass....

guess what I do for a living? hmmm... let me think.... yeah thats it, I do work on ducatis. Whoa who'd ever thunk I'd get a little pissed about someone ridiculing the brand of motorcycle i put food on my table with.

If I was in here ridiculing your specialty, you'd get a little upset.

Regardless, you are one of the masses that has never seen "REAL" racing from the inside so whatever the media spoonfeeds you, that now becomes your perceived reality. For instance, ducati getting a 1200cc allowance by merely complaining alot, which is what your basing your arguments on and i can only guess this is contrived from superbikeplanet or some other sensationlist racing reporter.

So let me put it this way. Do you really think that a company like ducati has to do nothing more than complain to the FIM to get 200cc's? really?

You don't think there's a multitude of lawyers and engineers with "SOUND" empirical data to back up the argument that this 200cc is necessary for a level playing field? You have no clue what's behind the scenes with engineers on a professional racing level. These people don't make changes unless there's a case study and a spreadsheet and a multitude of other things. There's no "i think" it's black or white.

Whats my point? my point is that there's alittle more thought process behind rules in professional racing than someone, like you, who say's "ducati's accelerate" differently, yes possibly, but what real data do you have to back that up? you can't make a statment like that unless you can prove it. Your view is not a scientific approach.

When your not using a scientific approach to how you look at and perceive professional motorcycle racing around you, then how in the hell can you help to define rules for a rulebook, even on an amateur level racing.

[Bartman]

Geez Ben you are way to high strung, this is just playful banter. Ducati has a very long history of using political influence to get there way and denying it is just naive, now all the OEMs have done this as well but not to the extent that I have seen Ducati do it. Of course I don't have insider info like you, I base my assumtions on years of reading and watching and being involved on club basis.
I never did want to specialize to any one brand and everybody knows that I don't have a special place in my heart for ducati or yamaha but I will work on them without any qualms at all. I don't like to make rules to suit a bike, I would prefer to make a bike to fit the rules.
Anywho sorry if I offended you but I am entitled to my thoughts and opinions, course they are just my opinions. Oh and just in case you missed it I was not belittling you so please do me the same courtesy.

[benfoxmra95]

look bart, im not trying to belittle you. You know i have strong feelings about the twins for obvious reasons, racing them, working on them etc for years...

so when you come out throwing a few jabs, youre gonna get a few back.

trust me i spent a good hour sitting staring into the distance deciding to ignore everything and not even respond with the post right before this one.

I was on the verge of not saying anything more. But I then also wanted to make a point about how strongly i feel about the rules and rule book, and how seriously other organizations take it.

These days we are taking our rule book a little more lax than we did in past years. we are a little more loose with the rulebook than we were in the past.

It was the bible and we had high respect for it, and im guilty of losing some of that respect too, but i have a new perspective of it over last two years after being away from the mra and seeing how another organization uses it.

My opinion:

I just want as much parity as possible for all the bikes, and I feel that throwing a mish mash of bikes in one class and calling it middleweight, doesn't have alot of the angles thought through.

[froth]

Watching Bart and Sexy Ben duke it out over displacement, horsepower, and twins is a lot like listening to the "evolutionists" debate the "creationists"...

I don't understand, or give enough of a shit about either to have an opinion of my own - but it sure makes for good entertainment! :lol:

OOOH! This IS fun! :P

[JohnGarc]

What about Buell in the Middleweight class? AMA? Im just sayin!!!

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I tried looking around, but I couldn't find a succinct summary of the non-250, non-open, twins/thunder class rule proposal under consideration. Casey D., or anyone, could you post it?

IMHO, there's no point in building rules around bikes that are out of production like Buells, TLR, <'03 Ape, 996, 749R, etc. Eff 'em .. let 'em sit in the garage until they're 10 years old.

Oh, and Casey S. .. click here http://users.frii.com/jjb/aprilia/RSV1000R_dyno.jpg

[benfoxmra95]

Cheater! 87 ft lbs of torque.! Cheater, GD effen cheater...

Effoffeffer!!!!

[JohnGarc]

I knew it.... GD Tractor Harley Mofo Buells.

[dragos13]

I tried looking around, but I couldn't find a succinct summary of the non-250, non-open, twins/thunder class rule proposal under consideration. Casey D., or anyone, could you post it?

IMHO, there's no point in building rules around bikes that are out of production like Buells, TLR, <'03 Ape, 996, 749R, etc. Eff 'em .. let 'em sit in the garage until they're 10 years old.

Oh, and Casey S. .. click here http://users.frii.com/jjb/aprilia/RSV1000R_dyno.jpg

Hey Jim we are still working on the details for the class. It should be finalized by the December meeting at the latest.

Sorry for the delay.

[benfoxmra95]

Bart you are correct, this should be a heavyweight class, with the rules written for heavyweight displacement. but excluding any bike over 1000cc's

I hate the idea of writing rules around specific bikes. but if you don't want to write it as a heavyweight class and you guys decide it must go down the way your doing it and are going to write an entire section of what bikes are legal and what ones are not, then i have a list of bikes that I want allowed as well.

1999-2001 ducati 996 (117hp)
2002 ducati 998 (118hp this motor is identical in every way to the 999 motors)
2003-2006 ducati 999(118HP)
any ducati 916 that displaces 955cc's (127hp this is a special edition ducati that had sps cams)
1997-2007 honda superhawk (118hp)


I might have more bikes to come as i am still researching bikes that are outside of the ducati range. but this is my short list that comes to mind at the minute

i can prove definatively with no question that these bikes above do not make more than 130hp on a dyno. and all weigh as much if not more than the few proposed bikes that you guys listed earlier. age should not be a consideration as this is not a vintage class.

If necessary I can provide dyno sheets for all these bikes above.

I also have no experience with the buell line, so if someone would like to chime in here with buell suggestions that are roughly in the 120hp range and are heavy please do so.




Or this class should be soley written as a middleweight class and NO bikes over 855cc's allowed in.

Personally i feel it should be a middleweight class, but i do like the idea of coming to the track with a ducati 998 or 999 and not having to race against a 1098r

[Bartman]

Ben in your list of bikes would you post up what you know the HPs and torque these bikes average, not MFGs #s but yours and basic weights if you would. Would you suggest allowing all of them including the R models or just the normals. I have data on almost everything else but not all on your list.
My next request is tell me where the rulebook has gotten lax in your opinion, are we allowing to much or is it you think people are getting away with stuff and not being caught. I want serious input not only from you but anyone who sees a hole in the system we need to plug, is racing really so much more expensive than in years past. I can buy a Kawi kit ecu for about a 100 bucks over a powercommander so that is not a problem, maybe a motec or morelli system is but where do we draw the line?

[dave.gallant]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

[benfoxmra95]

Ben in your list of bikes would you post up what you know the HPs and torque these bikes average, not MFGs #s but yours and basic weights if you would. Would you suggest allowing all of them including the R models or just the normals. I have data on almost everything else but not all on your list.
My next request is tell me where the rulebook has gotten lax in your opinion, are we allowing to much or is it you think people are getting away with stuff and not being caught. I want serious input not only from you but anyone who sees a hole in the system we need to plug, is racing really so much more expensive than in years past. I can buy a Kawi kit ecu for about a 100 bucks over a powercommander so that is not a problem, maybe a motec or morelli system is but where do we draw the line?

I think everyone will agree that the supersport rules have been blurred, there's not much difference between a supesport bike these days and a superbike, really on a set of overbore pistons. This is another threads worth of discussion, and quite honestly, I don't think we should start it up here. let's not even get into it here. really i regret making that statement now, and wish it to be for another time.

I will edit the above post with avg hp numbers I have from stock bikes that have run on my dyno.

I specifically did not list any r models because they are head and shoulders above the rest in power.

[benfoxmra95]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either:

middleweight rules with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes) no inline 4's

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (with no specific rules for specific bikes) no inline 4's

[dave.gallant]

I a confused.

How did this become a heavyweight class? Can I ride my GSXR750 in it now??

How did we go down the road of it becoming 1000cc+ twins in the first place? I thought we were only talking about 675s, 848s, 749Rs, monster SVs, TZ250s, etc -- which are all not heavyweight bikes?

it started as a middleweight class with "SOME" 1000 cc twins thrown in and rules written for specific bikes and years.

I am arguing that it should be either middleweight with nothing over 855cc's (with no specific rules for specific bikes)

OR

heavyweight with everything 748cc-1000cc twins and triples (and no specific rules for specific bikes)

855cc limit for water cooled; two stroke or four, twin or triple, no 4s.

(I think 1000cc air cooled twins should be allowed too, but I honestly don't want to argue about it. )