STGTU class

[Scored51]

Shouldn't this be on the agenda for 2011, as it was post-Oct 1 suggestion?
Here were the rule suggestions I saw, and was referring to:
10. Allow 850 twins into SuperTwins GTU

The changes to the twins class was the above line item. Once a proposal is made, the committee discusses and has the ability to amend the original suggestion in any way the discussion warrants at the meeting. We will all have to wait and see what is ratified by the board, but with the elimination of the 749R, non-entry of the 848, and removal of the air cooled Ducs over 922cc it has pushed the STU class far further towards a lightweight twins class than any other change in recent years. The issue I see with this is it doesn't go the extra step to provide a replacement class for these true middleweight twins. But that wasn't suggested and as a new suggestion cannot be introduced at the meeting. However a loophole does exist as the twins classes are actually GP based (for whatever that is worth). Meaning downsizing and refitting parts of unlimited origin is legal. So use your imagination, but it boils down to how much are you willing to gamble on your bike build being legal and the level of enforcement from within the riders on the grid.

Two cents worth of opinion typed on four cents of paper.

[T Baggins]

I see this post in the Rule Change Thread:

Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.4.1.3
I propose the John Galafke rule.............


From unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled to.............up to 990cc two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder

Eliminate the 749R from STGTU[/b]

(edited at original posters request)


I can't tell from looking at it when the edit was made... so....

IF the recommendation DID NOT COME before the rules meeting - then I totally agree that Munch has a valid gripe. We do have the ability, whenever we come together as a group, to change the direction of the club at just about any time... however... that said, if nobody gave fair notice that this was intended to be one of the rule changes - then should we accept it?

I was under the impression, originally, that this was a documented and "known" rule change suggestion.

I personally don't think the 749R belongs in the class, but due process is due process...

[T Baggins]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

[Munch]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

[dave.gallant]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

Do you think we could get 10 bikes on the "grid" consisting of MW Twins and Triumphs for the first weekend next year?

If so, then as I understand it, MRA members can essentially create MW Thunderbike on the fly as stated by the MRA rulebook. (I think? I have never actually seen this take place...)

The same holds true for the CB160s or the Ninjettes.

I am not sure if it counts for rider classification classes however (eg: 10 guys over the age of 50 who want their own class).

[T Baggins]

...The botton line, I made a serious committment based on your rules.

Actually, it's ALL of our rules - and the members are the ones who make them - don't shoot the messenger...

You're right, it's our rules, thanks Tony.

I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate.

I'm gonna go race with Jon in the ousted Ducati Club in Arizona!

I guess you didn't read the previous post...? The one where I said that IF the rule change wasn't properly suggested, and there wasn't fair notice - that maybe we shouldn't allow it? Again, I was under the impression that it WAS part of the rule change recommendations. I want to do what's fair. I didn't agree that they kick my TZ250 out, but that's what they wanted. I didn't take it personal.

Look Munch, I'm not trying to hassle you... I'm just saying that collectively the members of this club make the rules. About 35 people were at the rules meeting - it wasn't just one guy who has a thing against Ducati's.... Just trying to help you understand the process man.

[sheispoison]

I don't want to fix something that is not broken nor limit the classes the interesting and unique bikes can run in, but TwinsU was severely broken. These types of discussions are the step needed to grow and adapt as a club. I dislike Hot Carl as much as the next guy, but I think a "Formula Oddball" class would be hella cool. If anyone actually showed up and raced it.

(You can try and flip me off Carl, but we all know you can't do that with those casts on your fingers. How do you scratch your ass in the morning anyway?)

How wrong you are Dave...


However, on a more serious note... I know of at least 4 675s that would definitely run this, possibly 6 if it's run on a Sunday. I haven't heard any down side to this the way Dave (although he is a total dick) laid it out. It sounds like win win to me.
carl

[Munch]

Tony, no worries man. I'm the lone trout swimming upstream. I know if we polled the riders in the class, I'd be the only only to want to keep the r in, as I'm the only one running it.

I don't want this to turn into watergate to see who suspiciously edited the post on the night of October 1st.

It's not worth the trouble. As Chris pointed out, the group has the discretion to change a suggestion as needed.

So either way its a moot issue.

Know anyone that wants a good deal on a 749r?

[Munch]

Carl, not sure if you included Sam Robert's 675 in your count, but I'm guessing he'd be in!

Test edit.

[snowblaze506]

Gotta say...i didn't see anything about ruling out 749r's, just the adding of up to 850cc twins.

I did see the doing away with 2 of the 3 classes my 998cc twin fits in. Although, those are the two I fight not to be last in (Hwss,Hwsb). The thread proposed Mw Thunderbike could be a catch all for most of us not running the "standards". 250ringding,675,636,748,749,848, and maybe the 3-5 aprilias that are around. All in the guesstimated 120hp range. I'll even run the old one. Hell, I'll bring both. We can start an 'Aprilia Class'! (Brewer, Jim, Sioban, Casey (2), Nigel, John)

Just throwing this out, since we're talking about changing rules after the deadline. :P he he he

[Scored51]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

[dave.gallant]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

Well, there we go.

It was essentially suggested last year, well before the October 1, 2010 cut off!

[hcr25]

Munch, you stated the rule change was unfair. Do you really think a 749R racing against a sv 650 is fair? A stock 749R makes more horsepower then a stock sv, hell it makes more then Mohams superbike sv. It is a midleweight bike. That is why it was raced in world supersport against 600's.

I also do not have a dog in this fight but i did for years ago. I was one of the four guys who sold his sv because of the 749r. We as a club didnt want to change the rule to exclude the one rider in the club who had a 749r from the class. So instead of losing one we lost four. Not a very good decision for the club.

[Munch]

Mike, yeah. I do. I'm going with the rules that were inplace when I started racing. I objected to how they are going about changing them.

But you obviously missed my OTHER point:

"I'm going to remove my objection. It's not worth the debate."

Close the thread.

[rybo]

Hey Munch,

First things first, I edited the post in question, but it had nothing to do with the 749 R, it had to do with correcting a typo. The original post mentioned 999CC as the limit for the Air Cooled bikes, when the poster intended 990CC. He asked me to edit the post.

I want to say that I appreciate you bringing your objection. This is your club and you are a valued member of the club.

I posted the results of the rule change committee and the recommendations so that members COULD have a view of what the committee suggested to the board.

I'm not sure we've ever done that before, but it's part of the "more informed" MRA that I hope we continue to have.

Personally I've always viewed SuperTwins GTU as our MIDDLEWEIGHT twins class. LWGP is the LIGHTWEIGHT twins class in my humble opinion. Last year we made THAT class a safe haven for SV's by eliminating the 250GP bikes and large air cooled twins from the class.

As I thought more about this today (before I saw your post) I came up with the following question in my own mind: "Why are we kicking twins out of a class called SuperTwins?" Is a 749R a contender for a STO win against a 1098R? Riders being equal, no. Is a Pierobon F042 a contender for an STO win...see above. Is it the MRA's fault that SV riders CHOOSE to RACE UP into a middleweight class on their bike? No, it's no different than Dalton or Josh racing 600's up into ROR-O.

When the vote came to kick the Pierobon out it was inevitable that the 749R get booted too, as it's a more capable bike than the F042 is.

This vote also kicks out the 1000 SuperSport, which we have racing in our club.

The crux of this argument comes down to the following question:

"Is SuperTwins GTU a lightweight Twins Class or a Middleweight Twins Class?"

If we deem it to be a lightweight twins class then what is LWGP?

I realize that you wish to withdraw your objection, but I respectfully wish to continue the discussion.

[Munch]

I looked back and the "Ducati exclusions" was the post right after Casey had reminded everyone of the Friday midnight deadline. So it was suggested a little under 7 hours before the cutoff by all appearances.

I think I now see where I might have had better luck with my twins proposal from last year. While I suggested separating out the SV clan as lightweights and the Ducs/675/TZ's as middleweights, the proposal didn't include an additional class to run the middleweights. At the time I thought it would create more of a burden on the schedule to add a Thunderbike class so my suggestion simply changed the nature of Twins GTU and left the lightweights in Lightweight GP.

Well, there we go.

It was essentially suggested last year, well before the October 1, 2010 cut off!

Not quite, it was edited by someone other than TRK, and possibly after the deadline. But Dave I was corrected that rules can be canged at the discretion of the board.

When you edit a post, it'll put in the time stamp on when it changed..

For example, I edited a post, and you can see the timestamp info.

"Last edited by Munch on Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total"

Not the "generic" message - (edited at original posters request).

If TRK edited his own request, it would show it. My guess is someone added the "exclude 749r section". But thats only my behind the grassy-nole theory.

And by the way, I do think the moon-landing was also faked!

But back to Dave's point, its a moot issue anyway - so I can have fun with the games played on an edited post.



And Scott, thanks for your thoughts. So I guess we can continue

I should have attended Sunday's meeting, but based on the rule changes proposed, I didnt have any concerns. I was told that the 749r was kicked out, but only after the 848 getting in was denied. When I looked at Casey's list, item 10 was a suggestion to allow 848's in the class - no mention of excluding the 749r. When I read Scott's updated post today, I saw my bike was essentially out. When I look to see when the "suggestion" was added to the thread, things don't look right.

And in the end, I decided one person fighting for a bike to continue running in a class that I've run for two years didn't make sence, hench I withdrew my objection.

My only suggestion going forward is alot more care should be put into class changes. I didn't pay any attention to it myself until this issue came up. However, these decisions have significant impact to the club and the racers in the class in the end. I bought my bike to run STGTU, had I known it was going to get kicked out, I woulda bought a POS 600 and I wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm sure Jon wouldn't had invested a lot of time and money in his Pierobon if he knew it wasn't going to be eligable, but he built a machine that was eligable under the rules of our class. But I can see why he stepped out. Shane did the same with his, as it was also eligable under the rules.

And I'll do the same, as I don't want to be the single guy bitching and moaning. But the rules are what they are. I didn't get the 749r into the class. I'm just playing by the rules we ourselves have created.

And honestly, if item 10 was "Removal of 749r from STGTU", you bet I woulda have been there on Sunday. It may not have made a difference, but I would have alot more respect knowing a rule change was potentially in the works, and I could voice my opinion because it directly affects me. I also could say, yeah, they heard me, and I understand why the rule was changed. End of story, but unfortunately thats not how this change went down.

[Fastt Racing]

Hey. Looks like I'm selling my 2002 RSV, but if Novice's can run this "old crap Italian bike" class, I might keep it and get my but kicked by Brewer every weekend. It would be better than gettin my but kicked by a bone stock R6.

[gixxermike]

However, on a more serious note... I know of at least 4 675s that would definitely run this, possibly 6 if it's run on a Sunday. I haven't heard any down side to this the way Dave (although he is a total dick) laid it out. It sounds like win win to me.
carl

Carl, you can add another Duc to that mix, I have a 748 motor now too. :shock:

[froth]

Sooo, if we do it right, and add another twins class, I can go out and have fun in another class (yes, I'll have my head handed to me again, but hey, racing up on the SV is a blast). Cool.

[dragos13]

Munch, I would like to personally apologize for not keeping the brief list of proposed rule changes up to date. I had them all updated until the day of Oct 1st where several were submitted at the last minute. I can tell you, that rule was there prior to midnight on Oct 1st posted by Shannon Moham. The update was done to clarify the cc limit. Even with the incorrect limit suggested, the rule was valid to become discussion at the meeting. At that point, the people who show up to the meeting can twist and turn a rule any way they deem appropriate. That is why it is very important all riders show up to these meetings. It is then brought to the Board for discussion in December. Many rules have been approved at the meeting but then denied by the board. Any arguement you continue to make will help in the final decision.

[dave.gallant]

Actually Munch, I wasn't saying this discussion was moot. This discussion is probably very influential in regards to the actual changes that will be enacted next year!

I was being a bit facetious and saying that since the rule change I suggested that got Carl all hot and bothered was very close to something that was suggested last year. (Ignore Carl for a little bit though. He gets out of hand from time to time). Since it was suggested last year, it made the cut off for rules suggestions for this year...?

Yes, it is a bit of a stretch. But, with the rider-focused (and economic) concerns of late, the Board may be more apt to find ways to be more inclusive.

That said, the CC limit better be 852cc (not 853) so Rybo can't ride his cheater bike!

[Munch]

Thanks Casey and Dave for the clarifications. You guys both do alot for the club, so definitely don't think I'm looking to point the finger at a technicality.

I realize there's a lot of bikes and a bunch of configurations to keep in mind when settings these rules.

I guess we'll see where the chips fall in November.

Thanks again for the insight!

[dave.gallant]

So, just to recap, in case there is any confusion in what I suggested earlier in this thread:

* LWGP already removed the TZ250s which essentially lends this class to the SV650 and other true lightweight bikes. I suggested leaving this class as-is.

* Supertwins GTU is modified to become a middleweight class that allows up to 850cc desmo 4 valve water cooled engines, unlimited air cooled engines, unlimited two-stroke engines (twin or not), and up to 700cc three cylinder engines. (read: overbored 748s, 848s, Peribons, Buells, Trumpet 675s, TZ/RS250s)

I only suggested this because of the modifications made to LWGP last season which allows an SV650 to now race in a class that is not populated by true race bred machines such as the 749R or TZ250. This suggestion also provides a place for those middleweight bikes to race against (similar) other motorcycles and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.

I think Ben Fox would approve of this message. (He can't be here right now. He is in front of a mirror preparing for his next TV appearance with the AMA)

[Hotrod]

and a way to keep all Ducati riders from causing a full blown holy war.

And then we can change the name of the class from STGTU to STFU!


HAHAHA,

No, Munch... Not directed at you personally. Just having a laugh! :lol:


although... I am one of those annoying sv riders ...

[Munch]

Dave, I like where you are going with this!

I still think we need a shot of Ben with Wolverine in Larrys pits- they coud be twins! Rumor has it he was the shoe in for his double if they film another movie