Results and times from Round #8

[hcr25]

I can offer my skills in PS3 and bowling if it will help

[dirkterrell]

MySql is fine, although honestly the next generation app should be (and will be if I am a part of it) PHP/SqLite bundled so it will run anywhere on anything.

I do a lot with SQLite in my telescope data reduction software. Very handy. And I've dabbled enough in PHP that I could come up to speed on it quickly enough to be useful.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

Easy resolution:

You want to keep your points, and standings, and times as a novice then,

DO YOUR NOVICE HOURS

Easy enough and requires no knowledge of SQL or Access or Java

8)

Well, with these arrogant "shut up noob" responses, I'm not surprised that the MRA is in decline.

Dirk

[dragos13]

Easy resolution:

You want to keep your points, and standings, and times as a novice then,

DO YOUR NOVICE HOURS

Easy enough and requires no knowledge of SQL or Access or Java

8)

Well, with these arrogant "shut up noob" responses, I'm not surprised that the MRA is in decline.

Dirk

Is that really how you took my response? I'm sorry but for as long as I have been with the MRA they have required novice hours. It has never been an issue before. Basically, you are saying you dont want to do the hours but still want to be in the results? I feel that the idea of "screw doing novice hours" is hurting a little more then my comment. I would stay out of this conversation but lack of doing novice hours DOES affect the entire club.

I have never and will never tell a noob to shut up. I just stated my opinion on a way to keep your results and standings. If you feel the rulebook is unfair, that can be changed.

I personally wouldn't mind if EVERYONE was required to do 4 hours. Currently, however, it stands only for novices. Not a rule I made, just one that I support.

[dave.gallant]

Easy resolution:

You want to keep your points, and standings, and times as a novice then,

DO YOUR NOVICE HOURS

Easy enough and requires no knowledge of SQL or Access or Java

8)

Well, with these arrogant "shut up noob" responses, I'm not surprised that the MRA is in decline.

Dirk

You must be kidding me.

You guys are killing me today. Are the off season antics really already starting?

Failure to plan and coordinate a requirement of all novices does not constitute a problem with the widely known and publicized system. There are a few basic requirements to roadracing with the MRA, and as a novice racer, this is simply one of them. Really, it is not that big of a deal...

[snay]

I can offer my skills in PS3 and bowling if it will help

:mrgreen:

[bluedevil]

I think someone's leg is getting pulled on this thread.

Its no need to discuss even. Those who cared about their points work the hours. Shoot when I was a Novice I worked them before the season even started to make sure I never got myself in that trouble.
If they didnt work them, they didnt care about their point anyway. Its not like there hasnt been 100 warnings all year long and every year for at least the last 6 to DO YOUR HOURS or lose your points.... Seriously, There has been so many chances to work hours during a weekend or not, Im shocked this is getting talked about anymore. Things as easy as working a gate, or carrying shit for Tony has been used in the past to knock off time. :wink:

I think there are lots of rule change threads that need constructive comments on them over in another section :wink:

[dirkterrell]

Is that really how you took my response? I'm sorry but for as long as I have been with the MRA they have required novice hours. It has never been an issue before. Basically, you are saying you dont want to do the hours but still want to be in the results?

Yeah, Casey, it came off that way. No, I'm not saying that those who don't do the hours should be included in the results. The rulebook says that you get knocked out of the standings and you lose grid spots the next year. That's fine. What I am saying is that wiping people completely out of the database entirely seems just a bit too draconian to me. That's all. We're trying to get people to return to racing and this strikes me as just a bit too much of a penalty (and it isn't stated in the rulebook if you want to start arguing about following the letter of the law). Hell, when I search on my rider number now, someone else's name comes up.

Like I said, I don't personally care. I didn't lose any grid positions. I have all my lap times backed up. I don't care about standings. I race because I have fun. But to be wiped out of the database completely is not the kind of thing we should be doing to our members. It's wrong. I think we should fix it and I'll offer my help to do so.

Dirk

[Mforza]

I'm sorry guys, I should not even say anything about this and start this whole thing.
As for my part, I could not work off my nov hours and I could not pay them off also. I new the punishment for that and I'm fine with that.
So, sorry again that I started this

[dirkterrell]

Its no need to discuss even. Those who cared about their points work the hours. Shoot when I was a Novice I worked them before the season even started to make sure I never got myself in that trouble.
If they didnt work them, they didnt care about their point anyway. Its not like there hasnt been 100 warnings all year long and every year for at least the last 6 to DO YOUR HOURS or lose your points....

That's not what's being discussed here. No one is arguing that you shouldn't lose your points.

Dirk

[bluedevil]

Its no need to discuss even. Those who cared about their points work the hours. Shoot when I was a Novice I worked them before the season even started to make sure I never got myself in that trouble.
If they didnt work them, they didnt care about their point anyway. Its not like there hasnt been 100 warnings all year long and every year for at least the last 6 to DO YOUR HOURS or lose your points....

That's not what's being discussed here. No one is arguing that you shouldn't lose your points.

Dirk

So you want your place finishes in the individual race but dont care about the final season standings... ?

I believe Jen posts those about 5-10 minutes after you complete the race. :?: :?: :?: :wink:

[T Baggins]

Be advised that this post eventually becomes semi-tangental...

The idea of Novice Hours was borne out of the continual and constant lack of volunteers to help and support the club in its operations on raceday and beyond. For a decade we've been short staffed and under-funded, and "compelling" the new guys and gals to donate some time to help "their club" by requiring Novice Hours seemed like it was the solution. The Board decided this probably 6-7 years ago.

Originally it was intended mostly to fill the corner worker stations, as there have been times where we've only had literally 3-4 corner workers show up. We thought "well, if we could get Novices to help out by working corners, that would allow us to keep racing without significantly raising fees to pay corner workers." They'd learn a little something about running the club, the work that goes into it, and maybe see how the faster racers get thru a corner. Seemed like a win-win...

Over the past two years, however, we've discovered that it takes much more time to get a newbie corner worker trained than the 4 hours required for Novice hours. Not to mention shuttling them back and forth throughout the day so they don't miss their races - and then constantly re-staffing the corners with yet another newbie... Which is part of why we allowed people to "buy" their novice hours this year. It made more sense to pay a trained worker with novice $$ rather than put a novice racer out on a corner for 4 hours.

Be that as it may, the penalty for not doing your hours was well publicized both on raceday, in the rider meetings, and on the forums. Draconian or not, the penalty is what the penalty is... and I believe it is consistent with what the rulebook says. How else do you interpret "removal from points, results, standings...?" You can't "be there" and "not be there" at the same time...

Here comes the tangent:

For what it's worth, perhaps someone should make a rule suggestion to abolish the novice hours? It is somewhat unfair to single out the Novices (unless you consider it an initiation??), and it would probably make more sense to simply raise the license fee for everyone by $50 and let the entire membership bear the cost.

Further, in my opinion there are two types of people in the MRA. 1) Those who see it as a club and WANT to participate in the operations, workload, opportunities, etc... and treat it like a CLUB. and 2) Those who are simply consumers and see it more like Elitches - they just want to show up, pay a fee, and go home with no other strings attached.

The ratio seems to be about 10% club members and 90% consumers. Not that either is right or wrong, but it certainly explains a lot about the continual struggle with workload vs volunteers.

We can run the MRA either way, just know that the more "retail oriented" we become, the more the costs MUST go up to pay for the work required.

[dragos13]

Yeah, Casey, it came off that way. No, I'm not saying that those who don't do the hours should be included in the results. The rulebook says that you get knocked out of the standings and you lose grid spots the next year. That's fine. What I am saying is that wiping people completely out of the database entirely seems just a bit too draconian to me. That's all. We're trying to get people to return to racing and this strikes me as just a bit too much of a penalty (and it isn't stated in the rulebook if you want to start arguing about following the letter of the law). Hell, when I search on my rider number now, someone else's name comes up.

Like I said, I don't personally care. I didn't lose any grid positions. I have all my lap times backed up. I don't care about standings. I race because I have fun. But to be wiped out of the database completely is not the kind of thing we should be doing to our members. It's wrong. I think we should fix it and I'll offer my help to do so.

Dirk

I will apologize then for coming off that way and I do understand the idea of being COMPLETELY wiped off the database seems extreme. Unfortunately that is the current process and I do believe its fair.

Its required to do novice hours just as I am required to meet certain SS rules and regulations. I might not agree that a double bubble windscreen should be illegal but if I get caught cheating I do understand the punishment. I'm not calling anyone a cheater, however you must follow the requirements in the rulebook rather then arguing about the punishement.

Had all novices completed their hours, or paid the $50, the club would be in a better financial spot right now.

Should the punishment be different? Maybe delete novices from overall standings but somehow keep your times? I just dont think novices should have the right to say "hey look sponsor I finished 5th overall" when in reality you are not qualified for any finishes. I'm sure there are better ways to fix things and we should all WORK TOGETHER to figure this out.

[dirkterrell]

How else do you interpret "removal from points, results, standings...?" You can't "be there" and "not be there" at the same time...

Well, I had hoped that people would see the point I was trying to make without resorting to the gory details of the rulebook but here you go:

A. In order to qualify for end of season points and standings, Novice racers must complete 4 hours of community service to the club (see Sections 4.5.E-H.)

I guess I interpret that a little differently than you guys do. It doesn't say that individual weekends (or individuals' results) would be wiped.

All I'm asking you guys to do is to think about how this looks to someone who raced and didn't or couldn't do their novice hours. Just for a second, put away your "I walked uphill both ways to school when I was a novice" mentality and think about it from a different perspective. Lose end of season points? Yes. Lose end of season standings? Yes. Lose every shred of evidence on the MRA site that you actually raced? No.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

I will apologize then for coming off that way and I do understand the idea of being COMPLETELY wiped off the database seems extreme.

Thank you, Casey. That's really all I'm trying to say.

Dirk

[T Baggins]

For the record Dirk, I do see your point - and when trying to attract new racers, completely striking them from the planet would certainly take some of the enthusiasm out of it... perhaps someone "will" make a rules recommendation that abolishes the current rule? Especially given that the current scoring system does not differentiate between year-end and year-during - and it simply deletes everyone for eternity.

When I was a novice, not only did we have to walk up hill both ways, in driving snow, barefoot, with the wind at our faces - but we didn't HAVE to do novice hours at all... Why? Because everyone chipped in as much or as little as necessary to ensure that the club they loved prospered and grew a little bit more each year.

Those days are gone, I'm afraid... As a society (not just in the MRA) were to the point of "creating accountability" by making it mandatory and then punishing those who aren't willing/able to step up. Hasn't been as effective as perhaps we all had hoped... :cry:

[dirkterrell]

For the record Dirk, I do see your point - and when trying to attract new racers, completely striking them from the planet would certainly take some of the enthusiasm out of it...

That's exactly what I was getting at. Thank you.

perhaps someone "will" make a rules recommendation that abolishes the current rule? Especially given that the current scoring system does not differentiate between year-end and year-during - and it simply deletes everyone for eternity.

I still think we could address the issue with a new database approach, and it sounds like that might be desirable for other reasons.(?) I am happy to help with that. As I said earlier, I have a lot of experience with non-profits (mostly being in that 10% you refer to) and I'm not the type to bitch about something without offering to help fix it.

Dirk

[scooter_c]

not trying to add to the debate, but when someone is deleted from the system does that mean that in the races that they did compete in everyone they finished in front of automatically gets bumped up in points for that race? Just curious because I missed the last race and someone placed overall higher than me at the end of the season but when i checked the results before the last race they were more than 36 points behind.

[JenJen]

Yes it does bump everyone up, Otherwise it is not in a running order and that messes with the database. It shows holes on the final results example: 1,2,5,6,9,11,15 etc.


I do have all previous race finishes for every race so if someone is wondering where they finished I DO keep that information. Just let me know what race you would like and I can e-mail you the pdf file.

Thanks

[ctb]

I am with Dirk. I certainly knew that I would not be in any year end standings, and would lose any grid position I may have earned for next year. I DID NOT expect, by not working/paying my hours, that I would be obliterated. I don't really care either way, but that needs to be clarified.

[Scored51]

I am with Dirk. I certainly knew that I would not be in any year end standings, and would lose any grid position I may have earned for next year. I DID NOT expect, by not working/paying my hours, that I would be obliterated. I don't really care either way, but that needs to be clarified.

Lauri,

What difference is there in the definition you understand and the colorful language anyone has used to describe his situation? There isn't any further penalty or fine to be paid other than what you noted. If anyone who was high in the standings and didn't complete their novice hours, they should be happy and grateful they aren't forced to repay all of the contingency money they may have won during the season after being "removed from the results." Now THAT would have definitely obliterated me!

[CO750]

Not that this is going anywhere, but I'll add my .02 :roll:

It seems that some people decided not to complete their novice hours based on a certain belief of what the consequences for that would be. Now that they see what has happened, they don't agree with the consequences. As has been mentioned several times, this wasn't a surprise. There were several posts with hours remaining and multiple opportunities to complete them through cornerworking, cash payment or other various tasks related to the club.

With the problems the club faced this year, it bothers me that we had so many novices not complete their hours in support of the organization. I can understand not cornerworking, but there were tons of other ways to complete them.

[froth]

I agree. Several times per weekend, our board members said it, it was brought up at the rider's meetings. Hate to be an A*****e, but if you're a novice, and you didn't do the hours, you WERE told about a peck of times. No pity. Try paying attention, and please call your contingency sponsors to let them know how responsible you've been.

[auzzy]

I know that Drake feels bad about it. I know that the guy had planned on PPIR for his hours, (we know that story) and toward the end was racing instead of paying rent. He understood the consequences and accepts. He does feel terrible as I said, but will be back and has had a great time with everyone this year and hopes the thong wont be the only thing he is remembered for in the future.

[CO750]

I'm not saying that everyone who didn't do their hours is a horrible person. But in my situation, I had some personal issues that came up and I wasn't sure if I would be able to race at all. I still went out to one of the first rounds and corner worked to fulfill my hours even though I might not have raced at all. It is an expectation of novices to work their hours and I did mine because i knew it was an expectation of the club.

To me, if you don't partake in your requirement to the club, then why should we take your concerns seriously.

Pay your dues and make a positive impact.