Radical Idea

[Mforza]

And in endurance you race for the team so you are trying to make sure not to crash that your team can finish the race. So I think it's safer
You can do it as a separate championship
Maybe with cooperation MRA/Chicane if that will work?

[racedk6]

What I'm not supportive of is backing off on the racer training and bike/track safety preparation the MRA currently has in place. Those of us who remember shutting down La Junta for 2 hours from a full track oil line, or the Gene/Moriah incidents don't want to re-learn the importance rider training or adequate bike preparation.

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

Agreed. I'm all for getting creative but I'm concerned the club is going down the wrong path out of deperation. I'm not racing with non-licensed un-prepped riders, I'm concerned about both their safety and mine.

I agree we CAN NOT compromise the safety of riders or the track conditions more then what we already do.

Motorcycle racing is an expensive and dangerous sport no matter what way you look at it hands down. Instead of risking and liability issues that may involve the MRA insurance by letting un-prepped bikes on the track, and untrained riders, we can get something rolling where Chicane Trackdays can do some mock races of the street guys. That can offer street riders a chance to be in a race competitive situation.

[Scored51]

Not to derail the direction this thread is headed, but remembrance of how Saturday was run reminded me that whether Saturday endurance or sprints were run, Saturday morning practice was a separate charge of $50 for all racers. Once the change was made to include it with race registrations, the remainder of the race registrations did not increase in price. Therefore a modest guess with an average of 100 riders means the club has surrendered $25,000 in revenue for the first half of the season alone.

I doubt too many people would vote to reinstate the additional charge. However, it does point to the fact that the club still carries all of the costs associated with running a second day on a race weekend while losing out on a lot of the revenue that used to be generated. Maybe a board discussion could also investigate the possibility of restructuring the pricing of our races to more evenly distribute the costs vs. revenue. Meaning someone who signs up for an endurance race pays $50 and practices all Saturday morning. Then he/she gets a specific 15 minute practice for the race, and finally races a 30 minute race. Conversly, someone only riding a sprint on Sunday receives 2 practice sessions and a seven lap race that is approximately 12 minutes long for $160.

I fear that if everyone riding, or not riding, had figured this out we may have bankrupted the club simply by giving the farm away. Even single day bicycle race registrations are significantly more than it costs to run an endurance race with the MRA! So what about the idea of keeping the Saturday of our events, but whatever we use it for (race, practice, or both) it generates the income to remain a somewhat profitable venture?

[dave.gallant]

Chris --

Keep in mind we can make money racing sprint races to offset the additional fees associated with that sprint race. There is less "competition" to make manufacturer money in the endurance races, therefore it would become less and less interesting to many of us if the price for it would drastically increase.

[Scored51]

Understood completely. And the answer may be to keep the endurance as is for club fund raising efforts like the original air fences. If we removed that example from this discussion, the club is still generating less income. The pricing schedule that was developed to cover the costs of a single day event has now been spread over two days. So if I race a sprint on Saturday I pay my $160. Then Sunday I race a second sprint, but instead of it costing $160 (as was the original design) it only costs me $40. The club still gets my $200 for racing two races, but the costs have doubled because it happens over two days.

Now it may not be all that fair to charge someone who only races middleweight supersport and middleweight superbike $320 just because his/her races are scheduled on different days. However, if the pricing is based on factors of costs, number of entrants, and a small profit margin I'm sure we'll need to reclaim the $120 difference per rider to maintain a two day event schedule.

[froth]

Jim. There were FIVE teams. I know, mine came in fifth! :lol:

[cromer611]

do u guys realize how many wrenchs/salesman/parts guys that cant come on saturday? moving races to sunday and combining/eliminating some classes would not only be cheaper for the club, but alot of riders in the motorcycle industry would be able to race ... say .... novice classes for once.

[PremiumBlend]

do u guys realize how many wrenchs/salesman/parts guys that cant come on saturday? moving races to sunday and combining/eliminating some classes would not only be cheaper for the club, but alot of riders in the motorcycle industry would be able to race ... say .... novice classes for once.

Or guys like me in the paving industry where a 5 day work week just doesn't cut it during the summer... our work schedule is from Monday - Saturday. Sunday is a maybe.

[PremiumBlend]

A lot of what the MRA does might look like BS or red tape to people just coming into the club, but keep in mind that it represents years of accumulated experiences and missteps. A good way to come up with new suggestions is to first understand why things are they way they are then suggest changes, not the other way around.

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.

[marty]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and has can pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.

i bet i know who you voted for in the last presidential election :lol:










sorry to go political, but i've been huffing brake clean all weekend long and i should not be held accountable for any of my own actions or comments

[PremiumBlend]

i bet i know who you voted for in the last presidential election :lol:


sorry to go political, but i've been huffing brake clean all weekend long and i should not be held accountable for any of my own actions or comments

HAHA.. no worries, I get that way as well after working on my stuff.

And I didn't vote, couldn't justify putting it on paper for either one of them.

[JWinter]

I have talked over the weekend to several friends of mine who I have tried to get on the race track; all of them do not want to race prep their street bikes to our standards, but all said they would come to the track and do a track day event sponsored by the MRA.

So....what do I considered a minimum prep for a street bike. Case guards, taped off lights, steering dampener, and water only in radiators. If HPR allows these bikes on the track in these conditions during the week why not allow them during the race weekend?

I am in favor of the Sunday only sprints, I missed out on a lot of racing this season due to working on Saturdays. We can run two Saturday morning practice sessions and then do Lightweight/middleweight endurance before lunch and Heavy/open endurance after lunch. Then do something with street riders in the afternoon. This will allow the street riders to get more educated about the MRA and about the bikes they ride themselves.Again my point is that street riders need to get more involved with our club!! The street guys buy all the silly stuff for their bikes that our vendors make money on!

For insurance requirements all street riders wanting to participate need to be AMA members, complete a race school, have a current membership to the club and do the minimum track prep like: taped off lights, no anti-freeze, case guards, steering dampener, and all the proper gear per our rule book (helmet, boots, and etc.). These street riders would still be held accountable per our rule book when it comes to conduct and any other issues.

If we charged $80 bucks for a few hours of structured riding for these street guys we could have good turnout. This street class could possibly bring in more money than our current endurance schedule.

As a racer I do agree with the oil on the track issues and that is why I suggested doing the street stuff after we are off the track with the endurance classes. This will give plenty of time to clean up if we have a spill. Again I want to require case guards for these street bikes.

I don't want to change what we are doing, but it seems unavoidable at this point.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.

Premie - I agree that we need to adjust some of what we're doing since personally I don't think we're in an "economic storm" that we need to get through - but we're in a new financial reality. We need to size the MRA to that reality (the company I work for has already done this quite drastically).

My concern is there can be good change and bad change. People are full of piss-n-vinegar right now 'cause of the cancelled races, bad finances, and the rally of the troops to "Save the Club!!". What's going to be needed is sustained, focused work & headstrong persistence in getting us back in black. I'd hate to see the energy people have for the club wasted by changing things just for the sake of changing and not resulting in improvements.

At work, we call that "motion being mistaken for progress". It's a quick way to demoralize people and we *really* can't afford that.

So, rather than rambling, "we" (or I) need to summarize the ideas here and evaluate/estimate each one as to financial, legal, racer, sponsor, MRA worker, and spectator impact. Then we could rate each one on it's effectivness on what we're trying to achieve and go after the highest valued ones. (for those still following me, I'm suggesting doing sort of a Paredo analysis on these ideas).

Comments?

[benfoxmra95]

looks like jim wants to be part of the "A" team




uhhh.....it's pareto.......not peredo....nerd....

[benfoxmra95]

BTW, I'll see your pereto and raise you a charrette. That's more of what I had in mind. Once the charrette is done then the data derived from it can be then used in the pareto method.

[froth]

Alright, I had to look them up. I actually got good grades in my economics classes, but never heard of these. Pretty interesting stuff, 'specially depending on which side of "K" you fall.

[rybo]

I know I say there is a lot of Red Tape around here but I think when I say it, it is justifiable. Why? I think there are a lot of rules and guidelines from years before that were mismanaged. I think the board, now, is one of the best and can/will pull this club out of it's "recession". You guys make sound decisions that I know is with the clubs best intentions in mind. And I understand that I need to learn more about the club and why things are the way they are, but honestly... I think it's time for a change and people seem to agree. The problem with our current situation is we have to many of these " - " in the equation, and we need more of these " + " especially in the financial department. I, by no means am saying we should take unnecessary risks that will jeopardize this organization, but there are areas where potential profits are being lost due to restraints within our current guidelines that "could" be re-evaluated.

Premie - I agree that we need to adjust some of what we're doing since personally I don't think we're in an "economic storm" that we need to get through - but we're in a new financial reality. We need to size the MRA to that reality (the company I work for has already done this quite drastically).

My concern is there can be good change and bad change. People are full of piss-n-vinegar right now 'cause of the cancelled races, bad finances, and the rally of the troops to "Save the Club!!". What's going to be needed is sustained, focused work & headstrong persistence in getting us back in black. I'd hate to see the energy people have for the club wasted by changing things just for the sake of changing and not resulting in improvements.

At work, we call that "motion being mistaken for progress". It's a quick way to demoralize people and we *really* can't afford that.

So, rather than rambling, "we" (or I) need to summarize the ideas here and evaluate/estimate each one as to financial, legal, racer, sponsor, MRA worker, and spectator impact. Then we could rate each one on it's effectivness on what we're trying to achieve and go after the highest valued ones. (for those still following me, I'm suggesting doing sort of a Paredo analysis on these ideas).

Comments?

BRAVO JIM!

I've been relatively silent in this discussion so far, mostly because there are a lot of ideas out there.

There is a lot of danger in making radical "changes" in times of stress. We all hear that you shouldn't drive when angry (or emotional) and I think a lot of the same logic applies here. We (the club) should not make changes in desperation.

There are a lot of reasonable suggestions in this thread and I think evaluating them in isolation is probably a good start. Take each recommendation and analyze it based on it's own merits.

One of the suggestions that keeps coming up is some kind of partnership with Chicane. I'd like to see that option further explored as I think a win win situation can develop out of it, but also don't want to push my organization on the MRA. As such as we evaluate that option let's consider that there are others who may be interested in offering the promotor practice that's being suggested in multiple posts.

Also, there is a lot of suggestion of allowing Chicane trained riders to do some racing. I'll say a lot of good things about what we are doing with training, but we are NOT training racers at my trackdays. I think to send them out onto the grid with 30 of their closest friends and have them do a standing start into T1 would be a bad idea, and invites people to get hurt. That is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. The purpose of my organization is to run fun, safe, non-competitive events and I plan to keep it that way. If the MRA was interested in letting an outside organization run a trackday that could be used as practice leading up to an event I would be interested and would change my daily schedule to accommodate that use, but I won't be running races at my events, it's not what we do.

I want to be a part of the solution to the current MRA situation and believe that careful consideration of a radical change is necessary. The club has been in worse positions, when I joined in 2002 there was a crisis that easily rivaled our current situation and may have even been worse. I know that we have the ability to solve this problem, but don't think that making radical changes RIGHT NOW is the real solution.

In the meantime I suggest that we start an evaluation of each suggestion so far in the way that Jim suggests. It's tedious and hard, but it's the only way to make a good choice.

More from me later

Scott

[T Baggins]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!

[Jon]

I'm of the thought that the reason we've had to cancel the PPIR rounds is that much like in the past when everyone raised there hands wanting the real endurance race and then neglected to signup was much the same as the enthusiasm shown for the 11 race season. When reality set in and finances were looked at people faced the cold hard reality that they couldn't afford it.
Regardless, yes racing ain't cheap and yes some of us throw what we can afford to do it and being older and somewhat sucessful at what I do I throw more than many.
I've been of the thought that a spec class using SV 650's with minimum mods allowed would create a affordable class where talent would rule. Yet what we've seen here is everyone starting out on 600's, crashing and not being able to afford to fix it or being hurt (how many have quit this year alone for that reason?) because they were caught out by the power of the newer 600's.
In my opinion and others who have raced almost through half the pack in Endurance is that a SV, EX or another lightweight bike is every bit as fun as a 600 as long as your racing. It teaches to have higher corner speeds, brake later and get the most of the power available and to turn towards the chassis and suspension for quicker laptimes not the throttle.

[benfoxmra95]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!

well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.

[froth]

I vote for Fleshtone and Ultra Marine.

Actually, I second Jon's opinion on the "Mighty SV,"(credit to Moham here). When I went from a 600 I-4 to the SV, I got faster than the 600 the first time out. Easier cornering, or someting. Less tire wear, MUCH less expensive overall.
I bought the bike fully race prepped(stock carbs, but a full exhaust system), including, very nice paint, with minimum, I mean minimum camage from an easy low side. Including shipping of $480, it came to $2980 for a fully ready to go race bike. Yes, Shanon M. rides one, and crushes me on it regularly, but that's mostly due to the fact that HE RACES BETTER than I do. The fun factor is still there, but the dollar$ factor is a bit mitigated bye less money for the machinery in both parts and aquisition (and, you can have Zohan, or a half dozen others build you a midway monster motor, take a peek at Chuck's sano macine....sexy!).

Heck, you can even run in STO, and see what the big twins can do (believe me, it's a LOT! Getting zapped by these guys while learning is FUN, and all they are trying to do after they pass you is show you a better race line, anyhow).

Should anyone want to ride the twins and learn for less, just contact Mark S. about running your yellow tag in STU and STO, LWGP, and endurance is open to all. Mark gave me permission, and a couple pointers, and off I went.

Very good point Jon, thanks for bringing it up.

[benfoxmra95]

we've digress here from the topic of one day schedule.

Oh well.

If were on the topic of it, then I'll give me opinion, the thought of racing sv's and small kawi's does not interest me in the least. That's just me.

What does interest me is racing a "stock" off the the showroom floor bike that I do not have to spend a crapload of money on it. Like bodywork and a steering dampner. that's it's I mean nothing else...case covers, but nothing beyond that, no race fuel, no exhaust, not a damn thing. You want a cheap class for streetbike people then this is it.

Well what about the street rider who's already got a exhaust, well take it back off, there's dozens of stock exhaust systems that go for $50 on the interenet. it's not hard to find a full stock exhaust system. and when you crash it, it's even cheaper to repair, you could buy 3 stock exhaust systems on ebay and stack them in your trailer for $100's less than aftermarket. chances are you'll only need to replace it once. same with rear sets. and clip ons. the stock stuff is perfectly good to race on you just need to get used to it.

Spec racing doesnt have to be small low powered machines.

A completely stock spec class for 600's or 1000's draws my attention because I want to ride the same bike I see ben bostrom riding or ben spies.

[dave.gallant]

I won't go into how much fun SV's are. And, for you "new" guys, I have literally raced most every type of bike over the years now except a Rotax. And, SVs can be made to go pretty quick!

That said, racing STGTU on one is a complete waste of time if you actually want to be competitive.

If there were a class similar to WERA LWTwins within 500 miles of driving, I would have done just that years ago. I bet Shannon and Applehans and <insert the many SV racers over the years> would have done it as well as they are just that much fun.

( Especially when you keep the motors somewhat stock and they last more than a few weekends. Right Shannon? :shock: )

[dave_g]

well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.

Changed.

Don't ever say we don't love you!

[benfoxmra95]

Killjoy here... just bringing the facts.

We may or may not be able to rent the tracks for "one weekend day only"

Typically they only do track rentals on weekends for BOTH days. Maybe with the economy sucking they would reconsider?

We would need to look at the "hard costs" to see how much it would really save to cut it to one day. Yes, there will be savings - but would it be enough to justify cramming the raceday into a Sunday again?

We pull in about $3500 per weekend on endurance entries. If we go to a Sunday only schedule, kiss that $ goodbye.

I'm just saying... before you get all excited about an idea, you need to look at the "reality side" before you run very far.

Honestly I think the best way to get people involved and increase new riders would be to do a "SuperStreet Class" on Saturday afternoons. Bring in newbies, and get 'em hooked!

well forget it then. can we at least change the background colors of the Forum for awhile? maybe dark blue with white lettering? or black? damnit i want something to change.

lol i guess its black for a little while....ask and you shall receive