Supersport Rules for 2009

[T Baggins]

I'm starting a thread to address what should and what shouldn't be legal for Supersport in 2009. I have no opinion in the matter, but since that seems to be the basis for the big fuss I thought we should open it up. Go ahead...

[rforsythe]

I have no stake in the game either, but something I wrote in the other thread based on Crash's assessment that welded frames are not SS legal (paraphrased):

Welding of frames should be allowed insofar as what is necessary to return the frame to a safe, ridable condition, provided that repair and use does not remove any material that existed when new. If non-structural pieces (mounting tabs, for example) are broken off, they can be re-attached by proper welding technique provided the broken part is salvaged. Replacing broken pieces with new constructions of non-OEM origin should not be allowed, since this opens the door for frame lightening under the guise of "broken part replacement". I don't see a problem with welding though, since technically you're adding material to the bike assuming all of the original metal is still there.

Likewise, in the event that a frame is bent but otherwise usable, straightening should be allowed to return the frame to a usable condition provided no material is altered in the process. (I'm not sure this really needs saying since I don't consider straightening bent metal to be a "modification" let alone anything anyone could prove, but Crash thought it was illegal, so...)

I'm also of the opinion that rain tires should be allowable in SS classes when track conditions before the start of the race warrant, at the rider's discretion. My thinking here is that while STREET DOT's are usable in the wet provided the rider tones it back a bit, the tread profile of most race DOT's makes it pretty scary once you lean over since they will not channel water. The compounds are also not as wet-friendly as their street counterparts. Where I'm going with this is that race DOT's merely resemble the street variants anyway, but are more closely linked to the slick versions of themselves. In the interest of rider safety, better racing and ultimately lower expense from less broken bike pieces, I think the tires should be allowed. Some may argue the expense of a set of rains, but really it's about the same as a good set of DOT's and they last much longer when used properly.

Even though I was a part of the air duct rule's creation, it's obviously a pain in the ass on all levels. I say strike that, maybe putting something in that only motorcycles that had OEM ducts to begin with are allowed to use them (i.e. no aftermarket Ram Air kits being installed), and that if ducts were OEM-standard than they must be used in SS, but that aftermarket air ducts are permissible. I agree with several who stated that the factories have obviously put way more R&D into the function of those tubes than a bodywork maker would do. If aftermarket tubes (with likely zero performance gain, if not a slight loss) save money and crash better, we may as well allow it just like we allow non-OEM bodywork in general. I know what the intent of the rule was originally, but the execution and interpretation has obviously taken a different path, so it's time for it to go IMO.

[Tumbleweed]

I also say eliminate Traction Control Legality. I believe this will create better racing and eliminate another cost.

Rain tires should be allowed. If the argument is to keep costs down then that is not the result. I have to buy 2 sets of rain tires. 1 for SB racing and 1 avon dot set for SS racing. If non-DOT rain tires were allowed in SS this would actually save money for guys like me trying to stay safe.

[bluedevil]

My SS short list for 2009

Aftermarket TC system or modification to OEM TC system = NOT allowed

Slicks = NOT allowed

Modified DOT tires (Including groving) = NOT allowed

Re-gearing including kit trannies or aftermarket tranny modifications = NOT allowed

Aftermarket or non OEM measurement wheels = NOT allowed

Aftermarket valve stems = Allowed

Removal/modification of keyed ignition unit = allowed

Aftermarket front fairing stays or modification of OEM stay = Allowed

Aftermarket brake lines (front/rear) = Allowed

Brake pads of any origin OEM or aftermarket = Allowed

Aftermarket Rearsets/foot controls and modifications = Allowed

Aftermarket chains (including change in size/length), and sprockets = Allowed

Air intake system modification (including rerouting or elimination of OEM parts and hoses) = NOT allowed

Smog block off plates = NOT allowed

Aftermarket and or addition of Non OEM spec. Velocity stacks = NOT allowed

Aftermarket CAM Chain Tentioner = Allowed

OEM or Aftermarket Air filter = Allowed

Aftermarket RAM air intake tubes = Not allowed

Sealing of any gaps, creases, or removal or any OEM plastic blockages in the path through RAM air duct to Air box = Allowed

Aftermarket Exhaust headers and pipes or any origin = Allowed

Aftermarket lever (brake and clutch and clutch perch) = Allowed

Modification or aftermarket rear shock = Allowed

Aftermarket Front forks, brake calipers = NOT allowed

Aftermarket or modification or front fork internals = Allowed

NO Air filter (Unless OEM specs for that model requires) = NOT allowed

Aftermarket / cut or drilled Front Rotors = NOT allowed

Aftermarket Mastercylinders = Allowed (based on the fact that most OEM masters are not up to par for street riding much less racing)

Cut or drilled Rear rotors (with OEM diameter measurements) = Allowed

Crank Case breather hose modification or re-route = NOT allowed

Porting or polishing of any internal engine part = NOT allowed

Aftermarket or NON OEM spec cylinder = NOT allowed

Relocation of OEM steering dampers = Allowed

Data logger or onboard system management and data tracker = Not allowed

Timing units both IR and GPS = Allowed

Onboard video/still picture system = Allowed

Double Bubble or aftermarket windscreens measuring more than 1/4 inch vvariance from OEM height dimentions = NOT allowed

Aftermarket windscreens of OEM dimentions - Allowed

1/4 turn or race throttle tubes and cables = Allowed

Aftermarket or Modification of upper/lower tripple clamps = NOT allowed

Aftermarket or modification to (including adding or removal of metal (to include polishing) or non OEM Cranks = NOT allowed

Degreeing of OEM Cams )with out removal or modification to OEM parts) = Allowed

Powercomander/ Ignition modules = Allowed

Quickshifters = Allowed

Kit or aftermarket ECU and wiring harnesses = NOT allowed

Modification to Air fuel main jet (on carborated machines) = Allowed

Aftermarket Rods and crank bearings, Springs, valves = NOT allowed

Aftermarket or modified Radiators and Radiator hoses (with the exception or protective caging) = Not allowed

Aftermarket or relocation of radiator overflow catch can = Allowed

Modified charging system or replacement with any aftermarket charging system = NOT allowed

Battery replacement with battery of any origin/ size = Allowed

Aftermarket wheel bearings of same materials as OEM spec = Allowed
(Ceramic Wheel bearings) = NOT allowed

Repair of a damaged Subframe / swing arm/ frame OEM specs = Allowed

Modification or original specs or reduction of weight to Subframe / swing arm/ frame = NOT allowed

Aftermarket Swing arms = NOT allowed

Aftermarket subframes = NOT allowed (Mainly due to extreme weight reduction and thus significant perfomance enhancement)

Fuel/oil of any origin or manufacteror = Allowed

Aftermarket Fuel caps = Allowed

Aftermarker Fuel Tanks = NOT allowed

Superbike Seats and tail sections = Allowed

Exhaust wraping headers = Not allowed

Exhaust wraping any portion of exaust pipes that come in contact with Rider = Allowed

[OConnell]

I would like double bubble windscreens allowed. They are much easier to come by locally (and possibly cheaper) than a factory replacement, or factory spec windscreen, and in my opinion they really wont effect race outcome.

I otherwise agree with dion's list.

[dragos13]

+1 for Dions list, however I would like the use of aftermarket brake rotors, as long as they stay the same overall size (ie using stock sized floating wave rotors, as long as they do not increase overall diameter)

[Tumbleweed]

My stock windscreen for my 08 GSXR 750 was $60 from suzuki. Plus the OEM windsreen is way stronger than aftermarket windscreens.

[Clarkie]

My SS short list for 2009
TC = NOT allowed

while I dont dissagree, you know you have just eliminated the 08 ZX10 right, and you would also elimitate the powercommander/Bazzaz units etc

[bluedevil]

My SS short list for 2009
TC = NOT allowed

while I dont dissagree, you know you have just eliminated the 08 ZX10 right, and you would also elimitate the powercommander/Bazzaz units etc

Thats why we are here... How do we word it correctly so as not to eliminate an OEM part, yet still maintain a fair level of competition ?

Perhaps : Aftermarket TC system or modification to OEM TC system = NOT allowed ?


all of my list ofcourse need to be carefully worded but this is a quick and dirty short list to get the ball rolling...

[clowe]

G. Only DOT tires may be used.
4. Grooved DOT’s are allowed for wet conditions. Trimming tires for
clearance purposes is prohibited.


Please, please, please for the love of all that holy please let's start allowing rain tires in SS if the race is deemed wet (this should be up to the TM). Next season we may well have four race tracks to race at. On three of them we should be able to race in the rain. We can argue about safety, cost, Supersport being a stock class but why don't we cut through the BS. We all come to the track to race, not pussyfoot around turning 1:30 minute lap times in to 2:15 minute lap times because you can hardly lean the bike over. We have a very good chance of racing in the rain next year. Those of you who have never raced in the rain at all and plan on racing Supersport next year should really pay attention to this. Riding around on DOTs on a 185HP SS 1000 is not safe or very fun. Try it on a 125 HP 600 and it is not much better. I don't care what anyone has said in the past, racing dangerous but using rain tires helps us to minimize the risk. Think of it is as for the same reason you wear a helmet. Riding with one is dangerous too, but which is more dangerous, with a helmet or without? I won't ride without one!

[clowe]

Here are my ideas and I think this could make this a lot easier. First, I agree with a lot of what Dion said but maybe we can make it even simpler. One thing that we may want to think about and that is staying in line with the AMA rules. I don't know if I really care but it is something to think about.

This will be overly simplified but it could look like this.....

No Engine Mods!!!!!
Stock Crank (can't touch)
Stock Rods
Stock Pistons
No head work
Stock Valves
Stock Cams
Stock everything inside the motor (clutch plates OK)
Stock wheels
DOT tires (except if declared rain race)
Rain tires (if declared rain race)
Stock brake rotors
Stock Master
Stock air box
Stock Tranny
Stock Throttle bodies
Stock Throttle
Stock Linkage
Stock Frame
Stock Swingarm
Stock Brakes
Stock Wiring harness
Stock sub-frame
Stock Charging System
Stock Forks
Stock Gas Tank

Brake pads Any
Air Filter Any (but must have one)
Rear Brake rotor can be drilled
Brake lines Any
Fuel Any
Oil Any
Bodywork Any (No Carbon, must maintain stock look)
Windscreen Any
Chain Any
Gearing Any
Rearsets Any
Clip-ons Any
Sparkplugs Any
Powercammander Any (This includes Bazazz or any FI unit)
TC Any (So long as you don't have to add sensors)
Crank Case Breather mods Any (so long as they are safe)
Camera Any (so long as it is safe)
Data acquisition Any (so long as you don't have to add sensors)
Removal of Ignition and Key OK
Fairing Stay Any
Exhaust pipes and headers Any
Fork internals Any
Shock Any
Gas Cap Any
Quickshifter Any
Steering Damper Any

Removal of emissions equipment Allowed (must define)

So, the way I see it the things you do inside an engine are what gains you the most HP. I see the other things as being creative and racing should have a touch of that at all levels. We can't get rid of TC because it is going to be stock on all bikes pretty soon.

That may all be too simple but I think between Dion's list and this list it is a good start.

[rforsythe]

This will be overly simplified but it could look like this.....

(list of nearly every part on a bike removed for brevity...)

So what you're saying is I can run that super trick carbon fiber ignition kill switch for weight savings, right? :P

Data acquisition Any (so long as you don't have to add sensors)

Can you be a little more clear on this one? Adding sensors to what? It could be construed that the DA unit itself is a sensor. Are you saying that even measuring something like suspension travel (which is clearly an added part) shouldn't be allowed? Or was this more thinking along the lines of adding engine sensors, modifying parts permanently, etc?

[OConnell]

My stock windscreen for my 08 GSXR 750 was $60 from suzuki. Plus the OEM windsreen is way stronger than aftermarket windscreens.

But it is usually an order item. Its much easier to find the DB windscreens local. And really what this comes down to is that I really could care less who is using one, in my opinion it isn't a big deciding factor of race outcome.

(This is to be taken completely separately and unrelated from arguing anything regarding running them illegally this year, the protests, etc)

[Clarkie]

My SS short list for 2009
TC = NOT allowed

while I dont dissagree, you know you have just eliminated the 08 ZX10 right, and you would also elimitate the powercommander/Bazzaz units etc

Thats why we are here... How do we word it correctly so as not to eliminate an OEM part, yet still maintain a fair level of competition ?

Perhaps : Aftermarket TC system or modification to OEM TC system = NOT allowed ?

yeah that would work 8) but you guys are still overestimating the advantage of TC units, if they were the 'magic button' everyone that has TC would win right? :wink:

[Jon]

Don't any of you guys (or gals) have jobs, kids and other hobbies, this is waaaay out of control. $50 bucks to the person who brings sanity back to supersport racing!

[rforsythe]

Don't any of you guys (or gals) have jobs, kids and other hobbies, this is waaaay out of control. $50 bucks to the person who brings sanity back to supersport racing!

Those people left to race SB instead a while ago...

[TBSgraphics]

Only allow

Fork internals
rear shock
Pipe,
rearsets
clip-ons
bodywork/incl. mounts/any source windscreen
steering damper
Fuilds from any source
brake lines
any pads
Stock seats
case covers
frame sliders
DOT race tires


Thats it...
limit everyone what can be done, reduce cost, close up the racing

[Clarkie]

Only allow

Fork internals
rear shock
Pipe,
rearsets
clip-ons
bodywork/incl. mounts/any source windscreen
steering damper
Fuilds from any source
brake lines
any pads
Stock seats
case covers
frame sliders
DOT race tires


Thats it...
limit everyone what can be done, reduce cost, close up the racing

while I dont disagree, what happens to everyone that currently has they head machined and cams degree'd? You also may as well close the doors to people that come and chase money with the MRA......although I know a lot of people in the MRA dont want them turning up anyway cause they might get beaten :roll:

just playing devils advocate here

[Jon]

Agreed but the MRA never really had an open door policy for out of towners to come race with us. I always thought that the club should align themselves more with the majority, CCS maybe but as we don't see many out of towners and very few if any any of the club rarely travel(except for a brief stint to AZ by a few) and our Utah regulars whom have actually aligned themselves with us, maybe the MRA does have room to have SS rules that are unique to this club. By God if we could get it to where nobody bitched about who who's cheaten we really would be getting somewhere.
I'm just glad I won't have to read the new novel of a rulebook in regards to the supersport classes next year.

[dave.gallant]

Or, here is an another idea:

Pitch Supersport into the weeds, just like DMG is about to do.

You will never be able to stop me from milling my head or doing hand cut valve jobs or even doing custom cam timing by pressing off the sprockets and pressing them back on exactly where I need them to be. Even if the rules say you can't, you won't be able to tell if I did it. Or if Ben did it. Or if Clarkie did it. Or if Bart did it. (That's the argument, right?)

Everyone is so damn scared of actually having to ride their motorcycle in the MRA that historically we have built the crap out of our bikes as our sole means to beat everyone else (who, ironically are doing the same exact thing).

So, why not embrace it?

Pitch Supersport. Superbike everything with stock wheels & forks.

Viva la Reveolution!

[TBSgraphics]

Or, here is an another idea:

Pitch Supersport into the weeds, just like DMG is about to do.

You will never be able to stop me from milling my head or doing hand cut valve jobs or even doing custom cam timing by pressing off the sprockets and pressing them back on exactly where I need them to be. Even if the rules say you can't, you won't be able to tell if I did it. Or if Ben did it. Or if Clarkie did it. Or if Bart did it. (That's the argument, right?)

Everyone is so damn scared of actually having to ride their motorcycle in the MRA that historically we have built the crap out of our bikes as our sole means to beat everyone else (who, ironically are doing the same exact thing).

So, why not embrace it?

Pitch Supersport. Superbike everything with stock wheels & forks.

Viva la Reveolution!

YEAH...

Classes..
Nov O, U
AM O U
ROR o u

all bikes and riders will be able to fit somewhere there..
Make races 20 laps long/ ROR 28

AND do time Qual for ror each race

[Clarkie]

Or, here is an another idea:

Pitch Supersport into the weeds, just like DMG is about to do.

the DMG rules i have seen are SS rules with a Dyno, but yeah bring on the resoutions

[dave.gallant]

Or, here is an another idea:

Pitch Supersport into the weeds, just like DMG is about to do.

the DMG rules i have seen are SS rules with a Dyno, but yeah bring on the resoutions

Supersport only in ECU and wheels & forks? I thought internals were free game?

[Clarkie]

nope, well not last week it could have changed again :lol:

the HP class/limit is to allow the BMW's/Buels etc in but limit them, get different strokes for different somethingorothers

[Clarkie]

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=33334