GP shift or Standard?

[sreimann]

Maybe I should make this a poll? Yes, I think I will. Please respond as to why you think one is better than the other.

Thanx~

[Spiderman]

The reason I was given when I asked "Why is GP shift better?" was that, if you're leaned over in a left-hand turn, and you need to upshift, you can do so with GP shift, but it would be very difficult, not to mention dangerous, to get your toe under the shifter to pull up, as you would need to do with standard shift.

Personally, I think it makes accelleration faster, since it's a more natural movement for upshifting. When you're downshifting, you're slowing down anyway, so it's (usually) okay if it's a bit more time consuming.

[T Baggins]

And, for good acceleration and quick lap times it's more important that you get your upshift right than your downshifts. If you miss a gear under acceleration, you lose huge time and risk getting cornholed. If you miss a gear under deceleration, you'll prolly go deeper into that corner than you ever have before. Pushing down on the shifter is definitely more of a positive engagement. And finally, when you're downshifting, you're usually sitting up, so it's more natural to pick up on your foot from that position.

Oh, and people who race with standard shift are gay.

my .03

[sreimann]

Good explanations. It really only took about 15 minutes to get used to the GP shifting on my new racebike. Now I actually make the mental mistake of GP shifting on my streetbike after having practiced a lot lately!

[Spiderman]

I switched to GP shift on my streetbike, about a year before I even thought about getting into racing. Now I only get messed up when I try to GP shift my XR 100, or my wife's Ninja 250. ops: :lol:

[sreimann]

Downshifting a literbike with no backlimiter @70 bites!

[wadlekf]

Standard shift.

While inverted shifting has a cool factor which obviously works on some people the appropriate shift pattern is 1 down 5 up. Earlier comments are well taken but there are a few factors that I see differently.

The shifting up while at high lean angle to the left strikes me as a somewhat thin argument because you can usually get your gearing set so that you aren't shifting mid corner. Upshifting suggests a signifificant increase in speed which in not commonly done at full lean. Also, isn't it just as likely if not more so that you need to downshift in the middle of a fast decreasing radius left. Consider if you are in an increasing radius sweeper you probably have plenty of power for the acceleration that is possible even if you are slightly overgeared. You can probably just start out a in the higher gear. In a decreasing radius corner the lower gear that will give you good drive onto the straight may well result in an overrev situation at entry which your motor can not accept.


You have plenty of time to set up for your upshift. Even on a fast bike there are seconds between each shift necessary. While the up movement of your foot is a bit awkward compared to a stomp you can apply plenty of pressure with good timing because the anticipation time is considerable. Yes, you could miss a shift and loose time or get stuffed from behind but that has not been my experience W/O a transmission in need of repair.

As for downshifting. A typical entry into a slow corner on a fast 4 stroke will invole breaking near the limit, 2 to 4 downshifts, throttle blips to match revs, clutch work, turn in, etc. All in just a few seconds. It is my belief that a large part of the beauty of two strokes and slipper clutches is that they simplify the riders job at corner entry. Clearly a downward shifting motion is simpler and more sure than upward.

In addition, down shifting exposes a rider to much greater risk. A missed downshift or false neutral can easily upset traction, loose you a bunch of time, cause a collision or a crash.

Ask yourself, have you ever been scared shitless by missing an upshift? I KNOW you have scared yourself with a false neutral or miscount of downshifts!

Finally, there are plenty of top level racers that use standard shift. I have no idea of their sexual practices. I would think a guy that accepts the nickname T-bagger would be more comfortable with himself. :P

Cheers,

Kirby MRA 751

[bluedevil]

Ummmm have ya ridden PPIR?

Coming out of turn 2 onto the back straight...Im shifting there...Leaned over left and often with the knee taggin the ground........ Cant say Id want to try it with standard shift.......

Neither way is right or wrong,....just what works best for you. U can be hella fast either way....

[Lel399]

GP shift all the way

The shifting up while at high lean angle to the left strikes me as a somewhat thin argument because you can usually get your gearing set so that you aren't shifting mid corner. Upshifting suggests a signifificant increase in speed which in not commonly done at full lean. Also, isn't it just as likely if not more so that you need to downshift in the middle of a fast decreasing radius left. Consider if you are in an increasing radius sweeper you probably have plenty of power for the acceleration that is possible even if you are slightly overgeared. You can probably just start out a in the higher gear. In a decreasing radius corner the lower gear that will give you good drive onto the straight may well result in an overrev situation at entry which your motor can not accept.

I guess Ill be blunt on this, answer to this paragraph is simply no.

As for downshifting. A typical entry into a slow corner on a fast 4 stroke will invole breaking near the limit, 2 to 4 downshifts, throttle blips to match revs, clutch work, turn in, etc. All in just a few seconds. It is my belief that a large part of the beauty of two strokes and slipper clutches is that they simplify the riders job at corner entry. Clearly a downward shifting motion is simpler and more sure than upward.

In addition, down shifting exposes a rider to much greater risk. A missed downshift or false neutral can easily upset traction, loose you a bunch of time, cause a collision or a crash.

Ask yourself, have you ever been scared shitless by missing an upshift? I KNOW you have scared yourself with a false neutral or miscount of downshifts!

I think how you come into a corner is a lot of personal style. If you like to not worry about the movement of the foot as much as other things, thats a rider preference. I dont blip, others do (I dont have a slipper), you can slip the clutch yourself w/o using the throttle. Some use the back brake, others dont. A lot of personal style comes into a corner.

I think you have a valid point about coming into the turn, but as Dion said... think about PPIR turns 1 and 2... you grab a shift coming onto that back banking at a pretty decent lean angle, and thats not a gearing issue.

Jason

[wadlekf]

Dion and Leleck

Maybe the bike I ride makes it seem different. At PPIR I shift into 5th right after start finish roll off as I dive down the banking. Go to nutral throttle around the transition then go to positive throttle just before the apex. On my 1000 I have enough power to get it spining at any time. On the back "straight" I get near redline in 5th which is the fastest area of the track for me. I have no reason to shift in this area and I'm surprised to hear that you are. I never fall off the power in 5th and never hit the limiter total ranger 8500-11700. You are both faster than me and you gearing is shorter so that may be the difference but I'm just not seeing that big of a range in speed through that section. Especially since I'm guessing that your apex speed is higher and top speed lower than mine

If you've seen me trying to get into 4 you will understand my desire to simplify turn entry.

I'm not seeing where you are getting in an upshift in there. Do you catch 5th or 6th comming out of 2? I haven't ridden a late model 600 but I would have thought that between the speed and the cornering that you wouldn't be able to accelerate that much untill you were well onto the "straight" (which I admit still requires some good lean). Are upshifting on the flat apron area or are you carrying lean well up the banking?

I do shift into 3rd at pretty good lean comming unto the banking and it would be easier with GP shift but not worth the trade for my bike and skills.

In defence of my comment on the possibility of GP shift being a potential inconvienience I'll relate a mid corner shifting situation that I was unable to avoid. When I used to ride willow springs on my 89 GSXR 750 turn nine was a problem area. For those of you that don't know the 89 GSXR 750 had about 2500 RPM where it made good power and had a giant hole in the power just below the good power so you only ever had 1 gear to choose from. Turn eight is a mega speed sweeper (140+ was the benchmark at the time) and nine is a fast (100ish) decreasing radius turn that is just far enough away that you pick the bike up in between the two a bit but never fully. You come out of turn 8 in sixth backshift to 5 for the chute (because you lacked the sack to hold it WFO with your knee on the ground) between 8 and 9 then bend it into nine. You scrub speed with the front as you tighten your line. The entry of nine is past the rev limiter in 4th but the exit requires 4th to get any drive at all so you end up downshifting at full lean. Even with plenty of room on the "UP" side of the bike this is a delicate procedure. If the turn was a left it would be at least as problematic as turn two at PPIR.

KW 751

[rforsythe]

I use GP, but it still trips me up sometimes. However there is one advantage to having it that way - if your foot presses down on the shift lever when you aren't expecting it to (I've done this a couple times) it upshifts, rather than downshifting which could be bad.

I still might shift back to standard though. I lose time on some laps having to think about shifting, because my brain suddenly goes "this isn't right, go the other way dumbass" which turns out to be a bad thing for me.

[dansfamily]

I'm a GP shift guy.....
For me, it just feels more natural a movement.
And not all Utah racers are as long-winded in their posts as Kirby is... :twisted:

[cu260r6]

I use standard shift, and I've never seen the need to switch to GP shift. I've never had a problem upshifting while leaned over even in the corners cited like PPIR T2 and T4 and Pueblo T4. I've never hit my toe trying to upshift either. I'd much rather have the feeling of positive engagement that you get by stepping down while downshifting when I'm doing 3-4 shifts in a row than when I'm upshifting and only doing one at a time.

[Lel399]

At PPIR I was geared 15/47... and actually would have put a 46 on for monday but didnt want to mess up the feel I had from sunday.

Coming over start finish, yes I grab 5th and get close to the top of that (one of the reasons I wanted to go down one more in the rear). I flick it in after the banana and as I am coming down the hill I VERY lightly touch the brakes to settle the chasis, grab 4th gear and the hardest part then try to get back on the throttle to continue accelerating down the hill and keep the throttle set.

Leaned over, start accelerating through the turn then grab a shift to 5th usually right about when I go back onto the banking. Sometimes I would hit 6th, which meant 4 down shifts into turn 3... again another reason I wanted to go up to a 46.

There were a few times that I would hold 5th through 1 and 2... only because I came in a little hot or something.

Jason

[Spiderman]

I use standard shift ... I've never had a problem upshifting while leaned over even in the corners cited like PPIR ... T4 and Pueblo T4.

I hope not - both of those corners are right-handers! :lol:

[R1Blue01]

I prefer GP. For me it is easier to push down to than it is to pull up. Just my preference. I don't think either one is better or worse, it is what works for you.

[cu260r6]

I use standard shift ... I've never had a problem upshifting while leaned over even in the corners cited like PPIR ... T4 and Pueblo T4.

I hope not - both of those corners are right-handers! :lol:

Whoops. I meant T3 for Pueblo, but the official T4 for PPIR is the first left after the first braking zone. I guess you guys call it T3.

[Spiderman]

the official T4 for PPIR is the first left after the first braking zone. I guess you guys call it T3.

I do, and I think that's what most of the MRA refers to it as, but I've been wrong before. :lol:

[chrobis]

When I got my track bike last year it was set up for GP shifting. I was curious enough to leave it, but aware enough of my own mental patterns to change my street bike over - 1) for practice, and 2) for conformity.

The reasoning that I heard / use is to think about the way in which your upper body is braced for the two motions. When you are decelerating, you are pushing with your arms: pulling up on the lever works with your upper body, pushing down works against it. Reverse the analysis for acceleration but realize that your bike (or at least my bike) is capable of waaay more deceleration than acceleration, so the effect is lessened. How great is the effect under any situation? You decide.

From the start it took very little concentration under most conditions, and now I automatically think of shifts in GP mode. The odd moment on a borrowed dirt bike is when I now have to expend some brain power.

I have had a couple of track moments - after fatigue has set in, and something happens which makes an unexpected demand on my concentration (what's that on the track?) - when I have downshifted instead of up. The gixxer's motor has forgiven me, but it is not a pleasant experience.

On the street, the worst has been a bit of embarrassment after pulling up from 1st after blasting away from a stop sign or light. Once again, a result of concentration being maxxed out.

Would I do it again? I'm not sure, but changing back would now be more of an exercise than my poor brain could handle (up? down! - wait - up! down? / Up? - oh no!).

[Budd435]

I am not gay, and I have standard shifting. :wink:
I rode Dion's bike around his neighborhood trying out the GP shifting. It felt much more natural.
Why did I not change my bike over to GP? The fear of miss shifts mainly.
Is there any proof that changing to GP shifting will improve lap times?
Has anyone ever missed a shift after changing to GP shifting other than Ralph?

I am not gay, and I have standard shifting. :wink:
I rode Dion's bike around his neighborhood trying out the GP shifting. It felt much more natural.
Why did I not change my bike over to GP? The fear of miss shifts mainly.
Is there any proof that changing to GP shifting will improve lap times?
Has anyone ever missed a shift after changing to GP shifting other than Ralph?

Dude.. I'd leave your bike STANDARD shift.. it'll make you faster.. and maybe try a stock gear @ pueblo too.. I think that'll make you faster too.. and maybe go with a stock pipe too.. yeah, and tires.. ..

Dumbass.. change it over to GP... You'll pick it up in 1/2 an hour...

I am currently devising a plan to whoop your ass @ pueblo.. but currently I am coming up with nothing.. other than the above suggestions.. :P


JAP!

[Budd435]

You can't woop my ass at Pueblo! I have secret lines that I will never let you see.
You may be faster than me at PPIR, but I own you at PMI!
Game on!

You can't woop my ass at Pueblo! I have secret lines that I will never let you see.
You may be faster than me at PPIR, but I own you at PMI!
Game on!

Watch out man.. I modded my bike today.. No more key ignition!! Saved at least 14 onces!! You got troouuuuble!!!

JAP!

Course this now means my bike is easily taken for a joy ride without my knowledge...

[bluedevil]

There isnt really a debate here. This is simply a personal prefrence. Like White or wheat bread. Who cares? Its a good topic for those who are on the fence and want to know what each rider has with personal experience, but to point out that either is wrong...simply no point. I rode all my life standard and it was fine. When I started racing I converted and in 45 minutes aound the neighborhood I never had a problem thinking about it or missing a shift because of it. It helps that my street bike is also standard. When I get on someone elses bike that is standard, then I have a problem. But usually when someone tells you its standard shift, U R brain is so focussed on not missing a shift, U dont.

Anyway, with the way bikes are now days gearing has a lot to do with where you shift. For example if I used Buddahs or Lelek's gearing on my R6........Id get killed. Also if I told U I rarely get above 4th gear on any track...most people would scowl at me. For example PPIR at the chicane Im in 4th. I let off for a micro second coming down the embankment, then on the gas full again once Im down the hill. Coming out I can shoft to 5th depending on my line. If I blow the line and dont have enough then Im still in 4th....... To many this may seem wierd or differnt then them.....Id be willing to bet my gearing is a bit diff than most as well. I know Charles and I always seem to be pretty close in gearing but usually 1 of us has a tooth dif in either direction. For me I gear my bike to get the most drive I can, but keep the overall amount of shofts to a minimum. My team makes fun of me all the time even calles me lazy..... Either way its working for me so Im stickin with it.

Now back on topic a moment than Ill sut up. About lap times getting faster when using GP....... Hard to say. When I rode standard I didnt race, but now that I race and use it I would say Im faster....but that is more than likely attributed to experience then just GP or standard shift.

[JT_42]

Dion....
I like Wheat Bread....
It is better for you.

Sorry, I couldn't help my self...

I like both GP and regular......

I think my riding has to get better before I can blam regular pattern for the problem....

James
Converting to GP next year