Practice price

[gsnyder828]

Well, the only tools I own are a hammer, a chisel and a plasma cutter.

Well that makes the Factory 5 build all even more impressive :shock:

[clowe]

(giovannir6 wrote)

Let me paint a picture, you are on the grid for the mwss race, there are 30 bikes behind you and only half of them have been out of the track and have seen the new turn 10 at Pueblo. It is the first race of the year and every novice who moved up from last year is just itching to show you how fast they are. Does this scare anyone? Does this sound very safe. To the board this issue does effect me and I am at a loss here.
Thanks,
Crash

(giovannir6 wrote) Being a novice that just moved up to expert, I would like to ask something about your post: Are you assuming that novice racers will be a danger to you because we dont practice and wont know the new layout? Or, is it that you think we will be too cheap to pay for the practice, get out there and not know whats going on? How are we going to be more of a danger just because the club (as they have always done) is going to charge $50 for saturday practice?

(giovannir6 wrote) Like you also said, most novices didn't even come out on saturdays. This would mean they would still be a danger Sunday as well. Maybe I'm just not following the logic behind this comment.

(Crash wrote) OK, here is what I was saying. First, I was not attacking the novices that have just moved up to expert but the fact is that some novices don't have the same amount of experience as some of the experts. Some novices have more, it kind of goes both ways. It's not that you don't practice or that you will be too cheap to practice. All I am saying is that if you racing on Saturdays in the SS classes that practice should be a part of signing up for those races. If you are not racing in Saturdays SS races then you should pay for practice. That seems pretty simple and make it much more like a Sunday schedule.

(Crash wrote) Also, I didn't say that most novices don't show up on Saturday. In fact, I think a lot of novice racers show up on Saturday and I think that is awesome. But, as a novice rider, under last years schedule you could show up Sunday morning, practice for free, race in four or five races (if you have a 600) and go home. That option does not exist any more and now to race on Saturday in sprint races you have to pay to practice. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.

(Crash wrote) To Glenn or any other board member.

clowe wrote:

First question for the board, is one of the reason we have practice on Sunday morning for safety?

(Glenn wrote) I suppose the argument could be made that having practice makes racing safer, but IMO it isn't a driving factor behind having Sunday morning practice.

(Crash wrote) OK, so what is the driving factor behind Sunday morning practice? Why does that not apply to Saturday morning practice for Saturday racers?

Crash Quote:
Second question for the board, did we make this schedule change at all to help racing to be more affordable, bring new racers in and hopefully grow the club?

(Glenn wrote) The main drivers behind these changes were to use our time on Saturday more efficiently by spreading the classes out more. The way they are now arranged does three things 1) it lessens tire swaps from slicks to DOT's for SS racers 2) it allows current riders to enter more classes without having multiple back-to-back races 3) it will get us out of the track and on the road home earlier on Sunday

(Crash wrote) So am I to understand from your answer to my second question that cost was not a consideration when making the schedule change?

Quote:
Last question for the board, can the members please see the hard number (that I know we have) about who practiced and raced endurance on Saturday vs. who raced on Sunday?

(Glenn wrote) It isn't as easy as just pressing a button and having the number pop up. If you would like access to the records to determine this let me know and we can work something out.


(Crash wrote) About the hard numbers, it would be great to see an average of Saturday practice sign ups compared to endurance sign ups to Sunday race sign ups. Could you provide that for me at some point?

Quote:
Let me paint a picture, you are on the grid for the mwss race, there are 30 bikes behind you and only half of them have been out of the track and have seen the new turn 10 at Pueblo. It is the first race of the year and every novice who moved up from last year is just itching to show you how fast they are. Does this scare anyone? Does this sound very safe. To the board this issue does effect me and I am at a loss here.

(Glenn wrote) What makes you think only half of the grid will have seen the new turn 10?


(Crash wrote) Glenn, if they don't practice they will not have go through the new turn 10 at speed. I know everyone will pay for practice just like I know everyone would buy raintires if you allowed them in SS. I am just looking for some consistency on cost from the club. When it comes to SS, some things are not acceptable expenses and some are. My point here is the same as before, consistency to the members.

Glenn, do we know it is the "majority" of Novice riders. I come back to the numbers. Also, in the past a novice racer could show up Sunday morning, practice for free, racing in four races and go home. Now, that is no longer possible and the expense is greater. I still think this will not grow your shrinking club.

Quote:
Glenn, you also asked this, "Why should those same people now get free practice (and the club lose the revenues) simply because some of their classes have been moved to Saturday?" The very simple answer is because they did not have a choice in the matter. The board made the call to change the schedue, not the members. This person used to get practice for free, why should we now charge them? That is not making racing more affordable.

(Glenn wrote) Again, we are talking about the majority here. While I don't have the numbers, simply looking at the track on Saturday morning will tell anyone that MOST people are out there anyway. So, if a rider voluntarily paid for Saturday practice in 2007, I don't see how they can argue that they deserve free practice in 2008 just because we re-arranged the schedule.

(Crash wrote) They do deserve free practice because now they are racing as though it was a Sunday with sprint races. I am not saying that everyone should get practice for free on Saturday. But those racing in the SS races should get practice. Maybe they just get one or two sessions and not all four. I just think that if they are signing up for races on Saturday that some practice or warm-up should be included.

Quote:
Also, everyone knows that I brought up rain tires for SS many times. The board and rules committee has always said that allowing rain tires would drive up cost for SS racers. The board said that all racers would feel they needed to go and buy a $350 set of tires. But now all SS racers are going to feel the need to go and buy $450 worth of practice. Again, I'm not as smart as Tony and my math is not adding up.

(Glenn wrote) You campaigned for rain tires on the basis of it being a safety issue. It is not. Racing in the rain with rain tires allows you go faster, it does not make it safer. And, again, that "$450 worth of practice" is not a NEW expense for most of the riders, because they are already participating.

(Crash wrote) My campaign for rain tires was not just for safety though that was part of it. It was for better racing which is good for the club and good for the sport. I was shot down because of the $$$ that go with buying rain tires. I was shot down because they said that everyone would then need to buy them and it would be unfair for the club to make everyone do that. BUT, now all SS riders have to pay for practice.

Quote:
AND, why did we have endurance practice in the past Was it because the board felt if might be a little safer if the racers got to see the track and do a few laps before they went out in anger?

(Glenn wrote) Because the original (and current) reason for creating the endurance races was to raise money. This is why, to this day, NO ONE gets comped endurance racing. We knew that if someone was in a position of having to choose between paying for practice in the morning and running endurance (w/o any practice available) that most would not sign up for endurance. So, the "endurance racers only" practice sessions were added.

(Crash wrote) Regarding endurance practice, who does the the same not apply for people racing in SS?

Quote:
So, I think this is about all I have to say. I think if people sign up for races on Saturday then practice should be apart of that. If people just want to practice then they pay for practice, that seems pretty simple to me.

(Glenn wrote) I disagree. Why should someone who doesn't own a bike that is legal for any of the Saturday classes be required to pay for something that another rider else gets for free because he owns a different bike?

(Crash wrote) I think I will use the board's logic when I say that that rider made a choice to buy a bike that is not legal from racing on Saturday.

Ok, I will shut up and I will try and leave that as all I have on the matter.

[clowe]

Glenn, I don' know if this is what Chris is saying or not,

However, what Chris is proposing (unless I'm completely misunderstanding him) is this:

Rider A enters three races, all on Sunday
Rider B enters three races, one on Saturday and two on Sunday.
Both pay the same entry fees, but Rider A has to pay for Saturday practice and Rider B doesn't.

Does that seem fair?

It does not seem fair, I think this is how it should work....

Rider A signs up for 2 races on Sunday only and practice on Saturday
Rider B signs up for 1 race on Saturday and 2 races on Sunday

Rider A should pay for practice on Saturday
Rider B should not pay for practice on Saturday

Or, just give rider B one practice session right before lunch or something. It should be like the endurance race.

[giovannir6]

hey Crash quit miss quoting me, or at least do it with some flare.

All I said was everybody needs some cat box, then we should discuss the new schedule.

[Coop]

All I can say as a potentially new novice racer having to pay for a little practice time due to the fact my race got moved to Saturday versus the old schedule makes racing even more undesireable as far as expenses goes......

[The GECCO]

Glenn, I don' know if this is what Chris is saying or not,

However, what Chris is proposing (unless I'm completely misunderstanding him) is this:

Rider A enters three races, all on Sunday
Rider B enters three races, one on Saturday and two on Sunday.
Both pay the same entry fees, but Rider A has to pay for Saturday practice and Rider B doesn't.

Does that seem fair?

It does not seem fair, I think this is how it should work....

Rider A signs up for 2 races on Sunday only and practice on Saturday
Rider B signs up for 1 race on Saturday and 2 races on Sunday

Rider A should pay for practice on Saturday
Rider B should not pay for practice on Saturday

So, all you've done is taken a race away from Rider A?

You're proposing:
Rider A pays a total of $200 ($150 for 2 races and $50 for Saturday practice)
Rider B pays a total of $170 for 3 races and gets Saturday practice included

That seems fair to you?

[clowe]

What I am saying is that Rider A does not have a SS bike so there are no races for them on Saturday except Endurance which is think is fine the way it is and should remain it's own thing. Glenn, you are right about this not being any different from the costs last year when paying for $50 for practice but last year we didn't sprint race on Saturday.......

So, let me try and be very clear with what I am proposing. If you sign up for SS sprint races on Saturday it should include some sort of practice session just like the sprint races on Sunday. I don't think we should just give practice to everyone for free. As I suggested, maybe just the last practice session is open to all SS riders who are racing that day. That is what I have been talking about the whole time.

So Glenn, to answer you question, yes, that does seem fair. With my idea thought, rider A gets to practice all morning and rider B only gets to take part in one chosen (by the MRA board) practice of Saturday morning. I think this way most people (like me) will still pay to practice all morning but it does not penalize the people who used to race SS races on Sunday with no practice.

To be clear again, my idea is that if you sign up for a race (other than endurance) on Saturday then you get one practice session. If you sign up for no races on Saturday or want to practice more than one session they you pay $50. This could be a great compromise.

[polar x]

F^@k why does everything I say turn into a SHIT STORM :roll:

What Crash is saying is what I agree with. (thanks Crash) I never said it, I was just asking about how it was going to work.

TONY I don't run sat morn practice but a few times a season. I run Endurance instead and all the races on Sunday. On Sun I did practice 1 sometimes 2 sessions and that's it because it was included in my fees.

GLENN What I think is fair, simply put. You race in anything other than Endurance on Sat you get the same benefits as you do for Sun's races and that's FREE practice. You choose to run Endurance then you pay for practice Sat morn if you want it. Just like Sat has ALWAYS BEEN. That is why some people signed up for Endurance was to use that as a better round of practice and then the race. By charging them for practice Sat morn with their races perhaps that will make some not race Endurance.

EVERYONE ELSE Getting laid is a great idea, Rain tires in SS is an even better idea, the schedule is fine with me its the fee's I have issue with, loosen your panties people, and lastly where are the novices and newbs who have a opinion about this?? There must be more than 2 of you out there.

[JimWilson29]

Hey Chris has your wife seen your Avatar pic? :lol:

[polar x]

Hey Chris has your wife seen your Avatar pic? :lol:

LOL yes and she thinks she's hot too.

[DingleBerns]

EVERYONE ELSE Getting laid is a great idea, Rain tires in SS is an even better idea, the schedule is fine with me its the fee's I have issue with, loosen your panties people, and lastly where are the novices and newbs who have a opinion about this?? There must be more than 2 of you out there.

I'm going to be there no matter what....your already putting out hundreds if not thousands of dollars each race weekend, what is $50 more...? But I did endurance and practice last year so my "fees" will not change...so I guess that is a biased statement....

just my 2 cents....

[cakake]

Rider A enters three races, all on Sunday
Rider B enters three races, one on Saturday and two on Sunday.
Both pay the same entry fees, but Rider A has to pay for Saturday practice and Rider B doesn't.

Does that seem fair?

Well, if you're going to come up with a hypothetical situation, let's include all the potential options. You left out the person who only races on Saturday. This person pays the same entry fees as someone who races only on Sunday, yet doesn't get any practice. He (or she) has to pay extra to get what a racer on Sunday gets.

So, if you just race on Saturday, you get less track time for your money than if you just race on Sunday. Let's be honest, that seems unfair to me.

Now, my Mom used to tell me "Life's not fair". This might adversely affect me (since I sometimes only race on 1 day, and it might be Saturday this year), but frankly, I don't care. I know the board is trying to do what's best for the club, and I'm willing to try this out and see how well it works. It can always be changed if it's a problem for enough people.


Eric

[motobum]

i would like to say that after completing my first season in the mra i made it to every race, but i did not make it to every saturday.

if the goal is to make it easy for new racers why not just move the novice races to saturday. i understand that it would not be ideal for experts racing AMU and AMO.

but i do not believe the goal was to make it easier for new racers. the goal was to make it easier for the experts. ie swapping slicks/dot, people that are already commited to staying a whole weekend, etc...

[kcecil]

As a perennial novice who is slow and needs all the practice he can get, I'll throw my 2 cents in:

Last year, I did Sat practice and only End races so I wouldn't have to spend the night, had lower entry fees ($100), and could be home on Sunday. From the time side, I like this new schedule as I'll be able to run novice races and still be home Sunday.

However, it does seem unfair that I must pay for Morning Practice and two sprint races when someone who races two sprint races on Sunday does not pay for Morning Practice.

Hypothetical novice A who practices Saturday morning and races NovU and NovO will pay $220.
Hypothetical expert B who practices Sunday morning and races STGTO and STGTU pays $170.

It does appear from the schedule that as in the past, there will be more practice time (1 session more?) on Saturday morning than on Sunday morning, so perhaps a discounted Saturday practice could be offered to those racing Sprints on Saturday, say $20 instead of $50.

[Wild Cheetah 612]

And they say women are bitchy... :roll:

We worked on this new schedule for months, working a zillion different scenarios and taking into account everyone's needs and wants. We came up with this new schedule to: 1) allow novices racing only in novice to have to come on only one day, racing amateur means you are working the next step, 2) help out the expert racers with all their many tire changes by categorizing their races into different days, 3) help all racers by spreading out races that "like bikes" ride to lessen back to back racing, and 4) make as many people as happy as possible.

Fact remains, we couldn't please everyone. And believe me, we tried.
Fact remains, we also must consider the financial health of the club, which means we have to charge for Saturday practice.

I know change is hard, but let's give it a try :wink:

[DingleBerns]

I just have one question...Is this whole discussion about a $50 fee? or am I missing something?

[dave.gallant]

I just have one question...Is this whole discussion about a $50 fee? or am I missing something?

If you race on Saturday only, you pay $50 to practice.

If you race on Sunday only, you don't pay $50 to practice.

[DingleBerns]

That's what I thought....thanks Dave.

[dragos13]

Bottom line, if you want to run Saturday practice you pay $50. Just like it was last year.

[TBSgraphics]

Bottom line, if you want to run Saturday practice you pay $50. Just like it was last year.

LAst year there was NO sprint races on sat,
IF I only race 1 race say LWGP, last year I paided for the race, and before the race I got to pratice as part of my enrtry fee,
THIS year I have to pay for the race and the pratice fee to race the same race at double the cost of last year.

This disscussion has nothing to do with if you want to just pratice on saturday, Yes pay the fee, BUT if you are racing a saturday race, you also HAVE to pay for pratice before your race, when last year(and this year for sunday) practice icncluded with your entry fee...

[polar x]

Bottom line, if you want to run Saturday practice you pay $50. Just like it was last year.

If Saturday race day was the same as last year you could say "just like last year". But we are not comparing apples to apples this season.

Change to the bottom line is if you only run SS races on Sat and not Sunday you now don't get the "included" practice that you got on Sunday.

So the Saturday only novice racer now pays more than he did on Sunday.


For the record this does not affect me at all, I rarely ever run sat morn practice but instead do endurance and even when I got it for free I did not use it much. I am here to have fun not be competitive. But if this was done to allow a NoV to come out for one day and go home, and make their day cheap, then this is not the answer. I love the schedule.

[dragos13]

Yeah I agree that from a financial standpoint, novices received the short end of the stick.

Last year, just like this year, gives sunday practice for free. Its only two sessions and most people missed the first session anyways. For people running Novice on saturday, it sucks for them. For people running SS on saturday, you dont HAVE to pay for practice.

I do like the idea that if you run sprint races on Saturday, maybe give the rider 1 free round of practice. If you want all the practice time (which has actually increased from last year) then pay the $50. Is there even an option to have these changes made or are we all just wasting our breathes?

[dave.gallant]

Or, have Tawny initial the tech sticker on the rider's first Saturday practice as they go out (as has been done in the past for other reasons)

If it is initialed on Saturday, that rider can't practice Sunday.

If it is not initialed on Saturday (meaning they did not practice on Saturday), they can practice on Sunday.

If they want to practice both days, pay $50.

[polar x]

The board could change it if they thought is was the right to thing to do. They made the decision without our input so they could change it again without our input.

Personally I think that is the fairer way to go. Course then you have to police it, which with transponders should be doable. But it is a step in the right direction.

[polar x]

If it is initialed on Saturday, that rider can't practice Sunday.

If it is not initialed on Saturday (meaning they did not practice on Saturday), they can practice on Sunday.

If they want to practice both days, pay $50.

Why should they have to pay for Sat morning practice for racing the same races as last year, on Sunday, that got them free practice last year. When they split the sunday sched, this year, into 2 days?