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Thread: Interesting Discussions Regarding the MRA Race Series

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    Resident T-Bagger Expert T Baggins's Avatar
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    Interesting Discussions Regarding the MRA Race Series

    I have retitled this discussion thread and moved the 2012 Race Schedule to it's own new thread. It seemed more appropriate to me to have the input and discussions be distinctly separate from the Official Published Season Schedule page.

    As you read down, you will find lots of interesting info and suggestions, as well as some posts from me which are animated and perhaps even outwardly defensive... This is primarily because, while we desperately need interest and participation in the molding of the MRA, I find it incredibly frustrating and irritating that people establish and then defend positions regarding the direction or management of the club without any factual basis or information.

    Please understand the business model and learn the facts before you put a bunch of effort suggesting "what the MRA should do". We churn approximately $280,000 - $340,000 in and out of the club each year. This is a real, legitimate business - not a bake sale. We can't simply impose changes because someone "thinks it would be great if..." to do so might very well put us out of business.

    Running the MRA is a full-time commitment from a board of 11 who work very hard to ensure the success of the organization. Indeed I often work harder at my "MRA job" than I do my "real job" - because the MRA is much more difficult to manage. We on the Board are quite intelligent and competent, and many of us have high-level jobs outside of the MRA - we are not simply "willing volunteers", we are actually "qualified" to run the MRA or even other, much bigger companies.

    The MRA is built around a very unique business model, which gets harder and harder to succeed at with every passing year - primarily because of two things:

    1) The cost to put the events on continues to go up

    2) The numbers of participants, and dollars spent per participant continue to go down

    We are constantly working to address these issues, and have had considerable success in doing so the last two years. We're far from where we want to be, but we have good data and we have a game plan to get us there. The next generation of Board Members is about to get a taste of what it really takes to pull this off, and I hope they bring the same amount of enthusiasm and work-ethic to the Board as their predecessors.

    There have been thousands and thousands of hours put into the current configuration of the MRA since we converted it to a two-day race schedule. It has been tweaked and modified slightly every year since then - and has been massively reworked and restructured since 2009 - which quite honestly is the ONLY reason the MRA still exists today.

    Making changes to the MRA business model is neither simple nor clear-cut in most cases. There is always a down-side to any change we might make, so determining whether the pro's outweigh the con's adequately is paramount in each decision, even down to the actual order of races on the raceday schedule. We don't just toss this stuff out there, it is expertly crafted to assure maximum enjoyment of the racers and maximum financial benefit to the organization.

    As you participate in this discussion, please let this be my request...

    Understand that making changes to the structure of the MRA is not like deciding whether the boy scout troop should "hike today and swim tomorrow", or "swim today and hike tomorrow". It's more like "if we do this, we'll lose our insurance" or "if we do that, the club will go bankrupt", but "if we do this, we'll add $24,000 to the coffers" and "if we do that we can bring in new racers". The stakes are much higher than you could possibly imagine, and each of us on the Board have a fiduciary (and ultimately PERSONAL) responsibility to ensure the success of the MRA.

    Ask questions, get facts (our books are OPEN to all members), collect data - and THEN make suggestions if you believe your idea still has merit. Merit = has benefit to BOTH the riders and the organization, as one can't survive without the other.

    Cheers!
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    great idea having the last round as a double points round!! Force people to save some $$ to defend their championships and get them out for the last round!
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    Resident T-Bagger Expert T Baggins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff healy
    great idea having the last round as a double points round!! Force people to save some $$ to defend their championships and get them out for the last round!
    And if a guy is say, 10 points out at the end of the year... he's thinking "I might as well not go, the other guy always beats me anyway" - but now that it's double points... literally anything can happen.
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    .....unless that is your worst track.....then you lose double the points.

    Tony, this isn't retribution for last weekend is it?

    I guess i better get faster down there.....

    it is actually a good idea....unfortunately.

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    It seems the main motivation for double points at PPIR is to increase attendance and more importantly cover the expenses of the weekend. I think a better solution would be to award "Bonus Points" (say 25 points) to every racer in each class he registers and pays for. Then allow the actual racing to decide placements with the same reward and penalty as every other round the racer attends instead of for ex. dropping from 1st to 7th on the last weekend of the season when you take a rock to the radiator in your 1st race and lose 72 points in every other race you miss that day.

    I personally don't see how this or the double points will help attendance much at PPIR since the people in points battles are showing up anyway and the other people who aren't showing up don't care whether they lose 36 or 72 points - especially at the last race of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evomach
    It seems the main motivation for double points at PPIR is to increase attendance and more importantly cover the expenses of the weekend. I think a better solution would be to award "Bonus Points" (say 25 points) to every racer in each class he registers and pays for. Then allow the actual racing to decide placements with the same reward and penalty as every other round the racer attends instead of for ex. dropping from 1st to 7th on the last weekend of the season when you take a rock to the radiator in your 1st race and lose 72 points in every other race you miss that day.

    I personally don't see how this or the double points will help attendance much at PPIR since the people in points battles are showing up anyway and the other people who aren't showing up don't care whether they lose 36 or 72 points - especially at the last race of the season.
    So you potentially receive 25 points for registering / paying for a class and not actually racing?
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    Senior Member Expert loujr's Avatar
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    Woohooo for more pueblo!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by loujr
    Woohooo for more pueblo!!!!!
    +1 - especially post repave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnight
    So you potentially receive 25 points for registering / paying for a class and not actually racing?
    Yes, but they still get 0/36 points for the race(s).

    1) They Pay and Race: They get 25 pts + Race Points

    2) They Only Pay: They get 25 points and only lose the race points so they are penalized exactly as anyone else at any other round of the season

    3) They don't pay: they get 0 race points and also miss out on 25 additional points available for supporting the club in covering the costs for PPIR which indirectly affects whether races at the other venues can be held

    Really if the board has decided that PPIR is going to be a round and they anticipate losing money that round I think they should add a fee to each racer license and/or each race round registration to subsidize the cost of the PPIR then if they end up covering cost or making money they can apply the surplus and adjust the fees accordingly in following seasons until the fees are no longer necessary.

    In response, I suspect the club members would:
    - pay the fees, continue to not attend, & chalk it up to racing costs
    - increase attendance to alleviate the need for the fees
    - make it clear to the board they have no desire to race PPIR and ask it removed from future schedules or nominate/vote in board members who's views of racing/not racing at PPIR are inline with theirs

    Anyway, I am just speculating on the reasoning why PPIR is double points. I could be way off. If I race MRA next season, I will race PPIR as part of the schedule and I will take the points however they are awarded. I am just pointing out that I can see the double points as possibly imploding some of the loyal racers' seasons in the final round after grinding out all year and all they can do at that point is sit around being bitter all offseason about how they "got screwed" at PPIR. At the same time, it doesn't really do much if anything to motivate the people who weren't coming anyway to want to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsnyder828
    Quote Originally Posted by loujr
    Woohooo for more pueblo!!!!!
    +1 - especially post repave.

    +2 Can't wait to ride that track with smooth pavement! It's going to be fast. :shock:
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    Resident T-Bagger Expert T Baggins's Avatar
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    The issue is not PPIR it is that the late rounds are poorly attended. Maybe bonus points makes more sense... I just hate to see the last few rounds hemorrhage money
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    Completely understandable, but now I can't resist bringing this up. Especially when looking at it from a late round club finances issue it really seems to make since to:

    Make Rd 6 @ HPR a combined MRA/UTSBA round (managed by & full proceeds going to MRA). With the extra income from racers coming in from Utah for this round it should offest the possible late season drop in Co racer attendance. It could also entice some of the Co racers who may have skipped the round to actually come out in order to race it up having some different competion in town.

    Make Rd 7 @ MMP Full Track a combined MRA/UTSBA (managed by & full proceeds going to UTSBA). Since the round would be held by UTSBA there would be no negative financial impact to the MRA especially if there is currently a decent chance of losing money at the final round(s). This would of course also help the UTSBA by bringing in racers for the Full Track configuration which is the most expensive configuration to run.

    Based on the talk and expected turnout for the upcoming full track round it appears that there is decent interest by the racers to race there. I think if it were an official MRA round and people had longer to plan on the round, the turn out would be much higher. The extra travel cost isn't so much when going in groups. I know with Kory (and Oscar?) doing tires at both places there would be additional trailer space available to transport some bikes. Also, I kind of anticipate "racer broke" coming into play a little. Often it seems racers are too broke when it comes to do the same old they've done a few times or when they're buying consumables like tires etc.., but then all of a sudden you through a little different, more interesting or exciting option at them and all of a sudden they come up with some funds :-)

    Anyway, I know this type of co-op has been considered in the past, but I guess I just felt like stirring things up(maybe reading too many of Aaron's posts). With the club looking to remedy year end funding issues it could be a good time to give it another look.

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    Resident T-Bagger Expert T Baggins's Avatar
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    We only had something like 61 racers attend all 7 rounds - out of almost 200 licensed racers. That tells me that the rest simply can't afford a full schedule, or for whatever reason they don't feel compelled to attend all the rounds. (life, kids, vacation, other interests, etc...?)

    Pueblo and PPIR were both about equally attended early in the season, so again I reiterate that I don't believe this is a PPIR issue specifically. I still think it's an end of year issue.

    Even though everyone LOVED Hastings (at least before it got bumpy) - AND it was a double-header, so double points implications if you didn't go - we had record low turnouts the last year we ran an event there even though it was round 2-3 of the season.

    If we had even 40 racers attend a 2012 travel date at Miller, I'd be totally amazed. We can't even get 1/2 of our racers to travel to Pueblo ('cause it's too far and they have to pay hotel....) - how that would be better for a Miller date is beyond me?
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    I agree that I don't think we would ever be able to get a big showing at Miller. It is fun to go over there for a round or 2 when possible but the expense is waaayy more. Even with the enthusiasm that we are having with the trip this weekend (which is way better than it has been in the past due to the fact that there is no rd 8) I would be surprised if there will be 20 people from the MRA there. I agree that it would be fun to have a combined event but I just don't see a way to make it a feasible option
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    Just to toss out another schedule idea for discussion.

    Has there been given any thought to Saturday practice and Sunday racing? When I registered for the UtahSBA MOM series I was amazed to find that their schedule really worked out well (not only for myself but others who are going this week). I found I was able to register for 5 races, with none of them being back to back. Probably more than luck than anything, but it's something that stood out to me immediately.

    Seems like they have fewer classes (obviously as they race in a single day). I'll be interested to see the size of their grids.

    From a personal experience my races fell on Sunday this year. I'd run Sat am practice, then not want to sit around to run endurance. I'd bail for the afternoon and come back on Sunday to race.

    I'd be more inclined to run the races if they were all in a single day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munch
    Has there been given any thought to Saturday practice and Sunday racing?
    The idea has been passed around. Which day of classes do you propose we eliminate? :wink: There would be no financial benefit to the club, from an event cost perspective anyway...

    USBA's entry fees are much higher than ours, AND you have to pay extra for practice - which is how they are able to afford to practice sat and race sun. If we doubled the cost to participate, most certainly we could cut the number of races - and we'd need to because we'd lose probably half of our racers in the process...

    Considerable effort has gone into making our schedule such that (unless you're Shannon Moham) you have very little chance of running back-to-back races. We put SS on Saturday and SB on Sunday so people aren't frantically trying to switch out wheels and tires throughout the day. Additionally, you can run between 2 - 4 races each day (almost regardless of which bike you ride) so you have the option to race ONLY one day or the other... and many racers take advantage of that. If practice was one day and racing the other - then ALL of our riders would have to attend both days. Which would increase the cost for many...
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    If I'm out on Friday (practice before the event) and give the track my $150, and give the MRA my $250 for the weekend racing, I spend $400.

    If I skip Friday, and practice Saturday, and race Sunday, and give all my $400 to the club, I spend $400 either way.

    I'd rather give then extra $150 to the club, and save myself a day.

    Personally, I'd eliminate the 250 cheater class, errr 250 Production class. :wink: Kidding, I don't know how to handle the many classes we have. I'm just in favor of larger grids. I don't know if a single day of racing would result in larger grids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Baggins
    If we had even 40 racers attend a 2012 travel date at Miller, I'd be totally amazed. We can't even get 1/2 of our racers to travel to Pueblo ('cause it's too far and they have to pay hotel....) - how that would be better for a Miller date is beyond me?
    I understand you've determined it's likely a general end of year issue as opposed to an issue with a specific track. Using MMP as Rd7 was based on it being the last round of the season not in order to replace PPIR

    The fact that you estimate only getting 61 racers to a local last round or maybe 40 racers to an MMP last round actually is the reason I suggested MMP would be a better option for the MRA. You would be losing money at your local last round because about 140 of the 200 licensed racers do not show. By making your last round at MMP the MRA would be providing a top tier venue for the small number of "full season" racers to race and complete their season, but the MRA would not be in a position to lose money since all the track rental, insurance, etc.. would be the UtSBA's responsiblity. At the same time, the UtSBA would be more than happy to receive an extra 40 racers to race and help cover THEIR expenses for putting on the round

    By having the UtSBA reciprocate and make your rd6 HPR round a MoM rd as well, you will see additional racers to add income for that rd. So the final 2 rds should result in an overall profit for the MRA as opposed the expected losses based on current participation. That leaves you with only the first 5 rds to worry about building/keeping attendance.

    I understand there already being an issue of people not going to PPIR, Pueblo, Hastings due to travel, but I think a good majority of the people who DO attend those rounds would also make the trip to MMP if it were on the schedule. The one's who weren't\aren't going to the other 3 tracks are already lost revenue anyway. I also think that by doing the combined rds you have potential to see a small increase at some of the other hpr rounds if UtSBA members decide to race in order to prepare for the official utsba rd.

    On a separate note: The race fees for MoM are actually inline with the MRA fees. It cost me $205 to race 3 races with MoM. It cost me $220(pre reg) to race 3 races with MRA. Additional races seem to cost the same too except MoM has 1 race @$30 before $20/ea for additionals at both clubs. The difference is Sat practice which is currently $125 for MoM, but that is for basically a full trackday of practice vs the couple short sessions with MRA.

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    Miller IS an awesome track, and no doubt the whole club would love an opportunity to race it. We drove over last year and ran the East track with the USBA just for fun. Great club, great folks! However it was a REALLY EXPENSIVE weekend.

    You were throwing out cost numbers, maybe your experience racing at Miller this year has been cheaper than ours was last year. Here's what we paid when we went to Miller--

    2 racers, we drove our truck out towing our trailer
    Friday track day, put on by MMP: six 20 minute sessions = $230/rider
    Saturday morning practice, charged separately from race entry fees, exactly the same as the MRA's = $125/rider
    4 sprint races = $235/rider
    We had to pay the reciprocity fee last year, they may be waiving that now = $25/rider
    And finally we didn't pre-enter, so we had to pay the late fee = $25/rider

    Grand total of $1280 in riding fees, or $640/racer.

    For us that was a pricey weekend to start with, on top of the cost of diesel to tow out to Utah and back (yikes) = another large expense beyond what it costs to race in state. We didn't rent a garage, we don't go out to eat on race weekends, and we don't pay for a hotel because we stay in our trailer. That saved us money over what many people will have to pay to travel out of state.

    The main reason the board has decided against traveling, at this time, is because it's an extra burden on the membership financially. If members can't afford a travel round and know they're going to be cut out of points, and out of any hope of finishing well in their class, it starts to discourage them from making all the rounds anyway. Downward spiral. When riders have more $ the plan is to look at travel rounds again. Just not at this time. The club discussed this last year and can talk it through again at the next general meeting.

    In the meantime, any member who's financially able can go out to Miller and have a blast. Just like the gang going out this weekend--good luck guys!
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    Quote Originally Posted by evomach
    The fact that you estimate only getting 61 racers to a local last round or maybe 40 racers to an MMP last round actually is the reason I suggested MMP would be a better option for the MRA.
    Maybe I wasn't completely clear in my post regarding numbers.

    We've only had 61 riders attend ALL rounds.

    Our worst attendance was PPIR, final round. We had approx 105 (waiting on final # from Lisa after adds, cancels, walk-ups, etc). Typically we have 125 - 155 riders at each round.

    Given the continuing financial downturn in Colorado, and no relief in sight - it makes no sense to me whatsoever to "force" our members to travel to stay in the points chase. The purpose of cutting to 7 rounds next year (all local) is to ensure that our guys have a better chance of attending all (or most) of the rounds. For those who are already strapped, there's no way they'll go to Miller - and so we've just completely demolished their chance at a top finishing position - and so they may blow off other rounds as well.

    I'm all for traveling to race with other clubs, but it should be at the riders discretion - not mandatory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evomach
    On a separate note: The race fees for MoM are actually inline with the MRA fees. It cost me $205 to race 3 races with MoM. It cost me $220(pre reg) to race 3 races with MRA. Additional races seem to cost the same too except MoM has 1 race @$30 before $20/ea for additionals at both clubs. The difference is Sat practice which is currently $125 for MoM, but that is for basically a full trackday of practice vs the couple short sessions with MRA.
    This is not actually the case. For any given rider on Saturday there is a total of 65 minutes of track time THEN and additional 35 minutes on Sunday which is included with the race registration. (Note: if anyone still has a detailed raceday schedule, please feel free to correct me on my totals.) By the numbers posted in this thread that is actually more practice time than a full lapping day Miller, and is not an additional $125 fee to the race registration. So in these examples there is actually more track time with the MRA and is only 2/3 of the cost. Not quite Tony's claim of half, but enough to get anyone thinking about it.

    Assuming the USBA sprints are the same length as the MRA's, roughly the same track time as the three sprints you signed up for with the USBA can be had with one regularly scheduled MRA endurance with aforementioned practices included. With the MRA's 2011 price structure, this makes race registration with the USBA more than 4 times the cost of the MRA for the same amount of track time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Munch
    Seems like they have fewer classes (obviously as they race in a single day). I'll be interested to see the size of their grids.
    Unfortunately the USBA is having the same problem that we've had, shrinking participation. When we were out last year my biggest class was AmU with around 15 bikes, some of my classes had 5 bikes on the grid. I was told this year that the USBA is getting around 60 riders total on a race weekend. Utah has less population so they have a smaller local racer community to draw from.

    However they have a different cost structure than we do--Miller subsidizes their expenses to keep that club open.
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    Tony: I know that your biggest oppositoin to traveling rounds is looking out for the membership and trying to keep racing as affordable as possible for as many racers as possible. That is why I was talking strictly from the prespective of financial benefit to the club. You mentioned the club was struggling at year end and I was only making a suggestion for a possible solution to eliminate that issue.

    Wyeth: Again I understand a travelling round is more expensive, but my point is cost difference is mainly in the travel (which can be optimized), not the racing so I just want to point out a couple things on your numbers:

    The Friday Track day is 135 1/2 day or 199 Full. This is similar to the cost of the HPR Friday Lapping Day 100 & 150 ( I think)

    Sat practice is $125 this year (was $75 last year when you came). This is extra cost vs MRA if you chose to practice Sat. Sun practice is included because that is the race day in MoM. If you race endurance there is some free endurance practice included on Sat.

    Sprint Race costs are essentially the same

    Reciprocity is waived this year - the same a MRA. Last year reciprocity was waived at the same point in the season by both clubs. From what I remember both clubs were trying to protect against racers racing full time for points and contingency without buying a license so they charged reciprocity for the first part of the season.

    Walk-Up fees still there and I belive the MRA does a similar thing

    Chris:

    I'm not totally sure what you are saying, but first both clubs have the same amount of Sun practice available included in the race fees. MRA has 3 about 15-min sessions included on Sat. MoM has almost a full trackday of 20 min sesssions on Sat for $125. If you race endurance you have an endurance practice included. Whether you agree with the $125 fee or not, you definitely get more practice time at the MoM round in exchange for the cost.

    I don't know what your getting at with racing endurance vs sprints, but MRA has 30 min endurance for $80, MoM has 90 min endurance for $50 (team captain only) + a normal race fee based on the number of races you do. You can substitue endurance racing for sprint races (or the MoM practice) to get more/cheaper track time at either club.

    Every club spends time coming up with sytems and fee structures that they decide will work best for their situation. I'm not trying to point out either club being better than the other. I think both have come up with systems that work well and are fair. I saw that Tony thought the racing at MMP was way more money so I wanted to clarify that while way more is relative to the individual perspective the race costs are pretty close between the two.

    I'm really not trying to push you guys to race MMP. As I said before, I decided to suggest a solution that although would cost the racers more, it would isolate the club from the potetnial end of year losses it's trying to resolve. I can understand Tony's point of forcing racers to travel in order to effectively compete in a full season.

    Anyway, I'll stop harrassing you now.

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    1,199
    You are forgetting the fuel cost for the trip there and back (yes it can be shared between riders if they truck/trailer-pool), but you are also forgetting about the 2 nights in hotels. I dont believe MMP allows camping at the track and hotels in the area arent that cheap.

    The idea of shared rounds in a great one, but in this economy it is unrealistic to expect people to spend a lot more money than they had already planned to spend on extra gas money and hotels. There arent any end of year prizes or cash awards to make it worth the extra cost for the racer to have to spend the extra money.

    If the MRA and USBA created an interclub championship that was in addition to the MRA and USBA championships it may work, but you cant penalize a racer for not being able to make an 1100 mile return trip to another state. Create a series within two seperate series where you list 2-3 rounds from each of the clubs meetings, the riders who have the funds to do 2-3 "out of state" races as well as their own are elligible for the Championship.

    Heck charge some sort of token fee that does directly into the end of year prizemoney/trophies and give it all back at the end of the year, but dont try and combine the clubs.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Expert
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    1,534
    Quote Originally Posted by evomach

    Anyway, I'll stop harrassing you now.
    Don't worry you're not harrassing anyone, it's a valid discussion.

    What you may not know is we went through this last year, and even did a survey of the club regarding travel rounds, and it's too expensive for the majority of our members--at this time.

    The board is trying to increase the number of racers/event, and the number of entries/racer. One reason guys drop out of classes as the season progresses is they fall behind in points. One reason guys stay IN classes is they're in the hunt for where ever they hoped to finish in the championship. We're trying to make it easier for riders to stay engaged for the whole season, and staying local fits that plan in today's economy.
    #145 Wyeth Jackson
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