The moral dilemma with cheating....

[mkdiehl]

"and since everyone who keeps beating me HAS one - I'm gonna put one on regardless of what the outcome of the rule review is. "

Good point Tony...anyone consider it makes you faster???

[acrovixen]

Just pedal faster, Tony!! :lol:

[KFinn]

or tony could try drinking less the night before.... ? hehe

[Bueller999]

One things for sure... there is NO performance advantage to not having one... and since everyone who keeps beating me HAS one - I'm gonna put one on regardless of what the outcome of the rule review is. :lol:

I am not running production 250 at this time so I took my snorkle out before the 4 hr.
I am topping out @ 94-95mph (GPS) on the straight, I put the snorkle in Sunday so that another racer could borrow it to race and in practice I was 3-4 mph slower and my lap times were also off. I am a bit rich as it is on my main and that would have made it worse but I am seeing a definite difference.

[Scored51]

The bikes that finished 1st and 2nd this weekend in the class both had snorkels in place.

So... doesn't this mean the snorkels make you go faster? :-k

[zx6racer]

I raced against those bikes (250s) here in california, they were raced at willow springs in Rosamond (high desert) not as high as a mile high, but still up there. We are allowed to pull the snorkel but it didnt make much of a difference really. I ran a 1:41.3 and weigh around 170 (without gear), the track record is a 1:40.07 by a guy that weighs 135 (without gear). So as the saying goes, LBs equal HPs!! And I'm just curious, how much do the "fast" guys weigh up there, as that seems to be the biggest issue. Need to know how much to starve myself before Oct 8th for round 8. :wink:

[T Baggins]

Hey Josh!

Hope you can make it out for sure! If we do well at PPIR we'll give it every effort to run HPR in October.

That said, PPIR is a blast on the 250's as it's a small, 1.2mi course. You don't lift, at all, for turn 1-2-3... so if you can make that, you really should!

Our guys are 135 - 185 for the most part - I'm pushing 170 after my cruise... Certainly weight is a benefit, but the skinniest guy isn't winning (yet) and even my big butt had a lap record for 3 laps at PPIR.

Just got off the phone with Richard Barnett and he'd like to try to make one weekend or the other - and another of your WSMC 250 guys (Dennis Horgan) was here this weekend.

Snorkels didn't seem to be a difference maker, really, but we'll see about getting some in time for the last round so everyone is 'legal'.

[Bartman]

If MR Diehl's post is correct - than likely best we do keep the snork's in

MKD - when I installed mine - it wasnt that bad - throw some soapy water on the seal and it will go back in much easier

Opening up the airflow will always allow for greater changes downstream than you could get away with otherwise. Unless those that pull them then also go and make the same changes, just removing them won't suddenly level the field. It might be as simple as new jets in the carbs, but the rulebook is pretty explicit on this. It's either a spec class, or it's not. It's unfortunate that it affected most of the class due to oversight (I don't believe it was intentional cheating), but that by itself is not justification to change the rules to accommodate those that broke the rules.

You would think it makes sense that if you open up the airbox it will make more power but most of the time it will hurt more than help and in the case of the turdfiddys I think it is hurting and if I were to build one I would leave it in there. The size of the hole with the snorkel removed is barely bigger than the snorkel it self so simply removing it makes no difference and I don't for a minute believe it will make a difference if it is built or not, now if you removed the airbox or drilled some auxiliary holes in the airbox that might make a difference.
None of the infractions from this weekend really would have made any real difference to the performance of these bikes and I really think if you all want parity you have to look at the weight issue cause until you do there will be no level playing field. When you have 30HPs to work with every pound is more important than ever, for instance if we assume a bike weight of 350 in race trim a rider that weights 140 has 16.3 lbs per HP and a rider that weights 180 has 17.6 lbs per HP and that is a big difference that rider talent will not be able to overcome.
If rider talent is equal the lighter rider will be faster so PLEASE don't give the argument it comes down to the rider either way cause that is BS and you know it, we can come up with a way if we want and yes it may be a pain but it will be the only way to make it a real level playing field.

[The GECCO]

If rider talent is equal the lighter rider will be faster so PLEASE don't give the argument it comes down to the rider either way cause that is BS and you know it, we can come up with a way if we want and yes it may be a pain but it will be the only way to make it a real level playing field.

Very true. Rider weight is always important, but MUCH more so on a 30hp bike than a 150hp bike.

But, as Bart eludes to....do you REALLY want to break out the scales and set a minimum combined bike/rider weight?

[Bartman]

Glenn the answer is yes yes I do want to bring scales if we do the rules for it.

[mkdiehl]

i think that would be interesting.....but an upper limit would be a good idea....you can only put so much weight on Spencer's bike.

As one of the lighter riders, I do see a difference on the straightaway speeds. I go by Brian like he is on a 125 down the straight....would be nice to see who the better rider actually is. I am not sure where we are finishing shows that....

[Bartman]

Looking at a set of scales right now, looks to be in the 250 range hows that sound to you, 250$ to weight in the 250s.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just tell the fat guys to stick to the bigger bikes? Just bring up the whole bear on a tricycle in the circus thing.

[Bartman]

Most of us are a touch bigger than 130lbs so if we make it a midget only class how many will we have racing it. I truly would like to see it be as even as possible and there is only one way to do that.
Even if we make everybody weight the same it will still not be a line from end to end it will break out into small groups just like all our other classes, on a side note everybody came out clean in the SS checks so I really don't believe that there is rampant cheating in the MRA.
We have a reputation for being a superbike club and I don't know why, most of our guys have run supersport bikes and only a few really ran a proper superbike.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

130 lbs = midget.

[Clarkie]

The Aprilia Cup series (FUSA national series) used to have a class within a class, because all the bikes weighed pretty close to each other (like the 250 Ninja's should) they had a heavyweight class for guys that weighed over a certain amount. I 'think' it was over 165lbs in street clothes, it was cool as it gave the bigger guys a chance to win their own class, within a class, basically bragging rights.

In a low horsepower spec class (the Aprilia RS250's was a dyno controlled class with a max of 62hp, if you were 62.1hp you were DQ'd, I spent most of the time de-tuning my bike to meet the limit LOL) the bigger guys were at a disadvantage with the power-weight ratio.

Bart, maybe rather try and weigh the bikes where you can see if any 'major' weight saving mods have been done pretty easily, create a 'big boy' or whatever the board wants to call it, so the racers who are at a disadvantage are racing against other racers closer in weight. Run at the same time obviously, everyone gets points towards the overall, but by scoring the heavier (ie. normal weight ) riders together you may keep them coming out and racing.

[HAMMER]

THAT'S A COOL IDEA... Even tho I honestly think if I was 180 I would still brake hard and and stay close to the front ...... Let's thro a weight on my bike for qualifying And see if Im dog slow ....25 lbs

[HAMMER]

I'm not scarred to try .. and I think people will be seriously dissapointed .. fk it toss 50 on there

[Clarkie]

It was a cool idea, the year I won the Aprilia Cup Championship I started at 150lbs fresh of the boat from Australia, I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol:

With some riders the weight doesnt matter, the team I was racing for brought a 130lb kid over from Australia for two rounds, he used to give me shit about how they needed two cows to make my leathers (little shit) but I beat him in both rounds. Yeah he went on to race World Grand Prix 250's for a couple of years, but we both learned weight isnt everything.

The heavier weight class just gave guys who thought they weighed too much, something to shoot for. Cool idea, didnt impact the actual class, and didnt cost any more money to run. I know a couple of racers back then that wouldnt have kept racing the class if they didnt add that section of the class, full grids meant great racing.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Just an observation.
We are just finishing up our second year with Rocky Mountain Mini Moto where the bikes have even less horsepower than the 250 production bikes. Adam is pretty much the smallest rider out there (Unless Schrammy shows up. Lol) at 100lbs. He was able to out accelerate most of the riders out there but wasn't able to win because he didn't have enough cornering speed. The whole series is pretty much dominated by the relatively "porky" Hammer, who weighs in the neighborhood of 150lbs. That "fat bastard" Hammer is even able to win the F3 class(65CC) on his f1(50cc) bike despite giving up 50lbs to midget boy Adam. The way I see it, fast guys will be fast even if they aren't the smallest guys out there.

Being 195 lbs I definately see the irony of a 130lb guy wanting to have weight parody with all racers of the class. It could also be possible to even out some of the weight issues by allowing heavier riders to modify their bikes for more horsepower. You could do a little bit of math and match up power to weight ratios. It seems like a lot of work to make things even.
Anyway, back on topic. It doesn't matter if not having the snorkel turns out to be an advantage or not. The rulebook says they need to be there. If everyone wants to get rid of them, then that needs to be brought up for next years rulebook. Its all of our jobs to follow the rulebook just like it is written until we can agree on changes for next year.

Hats off to Tony for how he handled the fines! What an upstanding guy!

[acrovixen]

[quote="Clarkie"] I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol: [quote]

What do you mean "back then?!" :lol:

[fairrpe86]

[quote="acrovixen"][quote="Clarkie"] I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol:

What do you mean "back then?!" :lol:

You two are wineo's now so therefor "back then" fits very well!

[HAMMER]

Porky....lol

[Desmodromico]

Raced a 250 this weekend for the first time, and while I agree I could never hang with Schram and Hammer regardless of weights, everyone else in the field just left me on the straights (210# for reference). I followed Spencer a few laps and had to make up serious ground in corner entry as he pulled me everywhere else (and his bike was smoking like crazy).

If we want the class to grow I think something like this could help broaden the appeal to more people.

[Bartman]

All the arguments seem to be the same, so and so is faster than me and I have to make it up under braking or corner speed. Thing is if we had equal weight and power within a 2% or so you would only have to outride the other guy rather and make up for power to weight differences.
Really it is almost impossible to make racing truly fair. Sometimes it just comes down to who can go practice more or afford new tires so effit all lets just have fun doing it and the fast will be in the front and if you want to be one of them get faster.