250 Production Cup - How to Grid em?

[rybo]

"I say grid by points on both days like we would any other class."

"I bought a 250 to go spec racing not spectacle racing"

"It's a real race, don't make it something other than that"

OK, what about gridding by fastest practice times (AKA qualifying) then? This way the fast riders who might only be able to come on Sunday can earn a top grid position?

I do vote for staggered grids too 8)

Oh noes you didn't!

[Bueller999]

I voted 3 but I don't think the grid should be inverted. Mostly for the safety aspect. As Hammer stated, the fastest guys will be taking this as serious as any other race, and will doing what it takes to get up front. Since this is going to be a mixed field of expert and novice riders, trading paint in turn 1-2 doesn't sound like a good time.

I do not take the racing as serious as some will, I am realistic about my abilities, and hope for decent finishes and consistency, but realize a pole position will not help me win a race.

[T Baggins]

Two things:

1) The opinions of the people riding in the class are the ones that really matter imo. Maybe we need to discuss this offline?

2) To be clear, I'm not considering the 250 class to be a joke or novelty class... I'm just trying to make it more interesting to the participants AND spectators.

The top guys are gonna be at least 6-10 seconds a lap faster than the middle guys and 20+ seconds faster than the bottom guys... having them work their way thru an inverted grid would make for more exciting racing and better spectating...

If simply running it as a Spec Class is good enough for everyone, then so be it.

That said, if we're not to do anything creative - I do like the idea of gridding by practice times both days - so that the guys who can only do one day or the other aren't consistently set at the back.

[HAMMER]

Times would be awesome too...

[jmart]

I do like the creativity that Tony is proposing. I’m running this class for the huge grins and the close racing it should create. It’s a hoot pushing these machines to the point of rearsets dragging and not stressing about the bike high siding you to the moon. I know that I may be in the minority, but running this class with some creativity will be a blast. I vote for LeMans start! Or maybe a hotdog eating contest on Friday evening to determine the grid for the w/e? Ok, bad idea.

Now, I realize some are focusing on the 250 Cup as their principal race, so please don’t interpret this as an attempt to undermine the integrity of the class. When and if, RORU goes SPEC, than it’ll be game time! :roll: :lol:

Jessie

[Bueller999]

1) The opinions of the people riding in the class are the ones that really matter imo. Maybe we need to discuss this offline?

So, whaddya you guys and gals think? Please ONLY vote if you're participating in the class - but all feel free to post up ideas and comments.

You kinda opened the discussion to all, but yes I would like to know if the voting is actually participants.

[toptier]

I would go for practice times on both days.

[WSMC800]

I would be really cautious about inverted starts. In my experience with these bikes, the fast guys in the back of the grid are in front by turn 2 or 3 anyway, and a dangerous situation is created as a result. The fast guys tend to be far more aggressive than the slower riders and will pass with less margin and less concern for negative outcome, because they usually have a stronger desire to win. If the first turn or two are tight, this only serves to increase the chance for something bad to happen.

I can understand the desire to create something more interesting, but in this scenario, it will be all over within a couple turns anyway.

I pushed for minimum weights at my home club at Willow Springs, but the club did not have the resources to enforce such a rule. I think this is the way to create even racing. You can't believe what a 30 pound weight advantage means on these bikes when on tighter tracks, or drag racing away from slow corners.

Anyway, just my $0.02 I'm dragging my Ninja Turtle up to Montana this summer, and am looking forward to mixing it up with the Colorado guys

[mkdiehl]

as a participant..... I vote for practice times determining grid

[mkdiehl]

as a participant..... I vote for practice times determining grid

[T Baggins]

I would be really cautious about inverted starts. Anyway, just my $0.02 I'm dragging my Ninja Turtle up to Montana this summer, and am looking forward to mixing it up with the Colorado guys

Hey Richard - welcome to the fray!

For the rest of you guys, Richard is the one who set us up with the initial stable of bikes which has now turned into a big and constantly growing grid!

What I had thought about, relative to the inverted grid, was that we'd use "the entire grid" to line people up, so from Row 1 all the way back to Row 26... - so maybe a bike a row or whatever it worked out to be. The guys in row 26 wouldn't get to the front till turn 4 or so.... lol

I dunno, maybe I'm trying too hard to create parity and excitement in a class which should already be very competitive and exciting.

We did talk about minimum weights, but the bigger issue was "what the ballast would be made of, how it would be attached, and any liability surrounding the implementation of such a rule."

[Bueller999]

I definitely appreciate the effort to add something fun to the class but the pack will seperate by the first lap into the smaller groups that will provide the really close entertaining racing anyway. I had the most fun last year trying to finish "not last".

[The GECCO]

Two things:

1) The opinions of the people riding in the class are the ones that really matter imo. Maybe we need to discuss this offline?

Be careful with that, none of the other classes have had the opportunity to have private discussions regarding how to grid or anything else, those decisions have always been made by the club as a whole, regardless of who participates.

The top guys are gonna be at least 6-10 seconds a lap faster than the middle guys and 20+ seconds faster than the bottom guys.

You're describing nearly every class in the MRA, this one is not special in this regard.

I dunno, maybe I'm trying too hard to create parity and excitement in a class which should already be very competitive and exciting.

Honestly, I think you are. I appreciate the desire for creative thinking to improve the MRA's "product", but my opinion is that this particular idea is trying to reinvent the wheel. Grid it by points just like everyone else (except RoR) and move on to focusing your energies on the next project.

My $.02

[T Baggins]

killjoy. ^^^^^^^ :wink:

[phildrummond]

While my opinion weights little, as I'm not racing it, as a spectator, I want to see something a but more exciting on the start than a 250 4-poker can provide. So, I'm not sure if I'm playing in the sandbox with El Presidente or Killjoy here. I think you have to introduce something like this prior to the rulebook posting, and you have to give each class a chance to create the circus they want for themselves.

Shunning the rulebook, and to keep the starts interesting, how about we call it Option #16 (you're welcome Tony). A hybrid of sorts:

1. Le Mans start for sure - Remote starters illegal, but good thinking.
2. Grid by fastest lap of the race day prior. It's fair to Sunday-only racers. If someone races faster on Saturday, the Sunday fast guy from race weekend prior gets bumped.
3. Fat guys grid by prior race times like everyone else, but we affix their weights on their leathers with pink duck tape from Grubbs so we can mock them.
4. Tony gets a head start.
5. Hammer gets a fine. No matter what. He just gets a fine.
6. Announcer wears a satin Ring Leader's outfit and tall hat while announcing just the spec race. On stilts will be best.

It could work, yes?

[Jon]

My apologies for my earlier comment as it was meant to be a play on the old school ways things used to be done. That said I believe the class is going to be a blast and great racing for all out there so please forgive me when I'm front row center when the race comes up.
Be fast but be safe!

[polar x]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to spice it up and make some changes to a new class that is really not like any of the others. whats wrong with trying something new (le-mans starts suck ass) and finagling it each time to see what works?

Why do we have to be sticks in the mud and so damn adverse to change :roll:

[oldtimer]

I'm not racing this class so my vote doesn't count anyway...but I agree with Kuo and Hammer, keep the gimmicks out of it.

That said I vote for option #2--grid by points on Sat, first race finishing position on Sunday to bring in some variables.

[polar x]

I'm not racing this class so my vote doesn't count anyway...but I agree with Kuo and Hammer, keep the gimmicks out of it.

That said I vote for option #2--grid by points on Sat, first race finishing position on Sunday to bring in some variables.

IF YOUR VOTE DID NOT COUNT.....WHY DID YOU VOTE :wink: :wink: :wink:

And change for the sake of change is not a gimmick. It's progress. or retardation..lol either way its trying something new. 8)

[The GECCO]

I don't see anything wrong with trying to spice it up and make some changes to a new class that is really not like any of the others. whats wrong with trying something new (le-mans starts suck ass) and finagling it each time to see what works?

Why do we have to be sticks in the mud and so damn adverse to change :roll:

How is this class "not like any of the others"? That makes no sense, Chris, really. This class deserves to be taken just as seriously as all the others, so I would say that anything that we wouldn't be willing to do in MWSB or RoR shouldn't be done in 250. That's all I'm saying.

Change is good if the intent and results are good, motion being mistaken for progress is not.

[OUTLAWD]

Lemans starts for all!

[polar x]

Change is good if the intent and results are good, motion being mistaken for progress is not.

The intent and results of change can not be determined until you actually have change. Hindsight is great, it allows us to see if it was a good move or a bad move.

[Geoff85]

Why does this class have to be set up any differently the any of the others? I have not seen too many inverted starts in bike racing ( slowest in the front or heavyest ) but how can that be safe? Now that we have gone to real timing systems gridding by times is by far the best way ( for all classes)if we want to make some kind of joke out of the race rather the make a good show out of the racing we should have put that info out sooner. What kind of racing rewards getting fatter rather then getting faster?
Geoff

[Jon]

An eating contest rewards getting fatter and not faster :lol:
Am such an asshole,

[T Baggins]

Hey Everyone,

So I'm annoyed right now, and will probably regret posting this... but I'm gonna anyway. :wink:

Just to clarify - we've been talking about doing "something different" with the class since we first had the idea of running it back in August/Sept of last year. Ballast was considered to meet minimum weights, among a dozen other ideas. Fat on pole, skinny at the rear was one of the very first ideas contemplated. Inverted grids was also discussed early on. There has been fully 6 months to comment on the class, so it frustrates me that now, 3 days before the race, everyone is in an uproar that we might try something different with it.

I guess my thought process was that the fast guys are gonna win no matter where we grid them - so why not make it more interesting to participate in, and watch. That would make it no less "a real race" - in fact, imo it would allow the fast guys to really show their stuff - and it would further reward riders with mad-skills and race-craft. Is safety a concern? Of course... but the slow guys are gonna get lapped by the fast guys no matter what. So the question is do you want it to happen early in the race when there is time to use discretion - or do you want it to happen in the corkscrew on the last lap in a moment of desperation?

Brewer talks about a race he saw at another club where they sent the riders off "handicapped by lap time" so that (mathematically anyway) they would ALL have an equal shot at the win. Said it was one of the most exciting races he's ever seen... I was hoping to take some of that spirit and excitement and inject it into the MRA - and the 250 class made the most sense because: A) it's new and (I thought) still malleable and B) it will have the slowest lap times and least disparity in closing speeds.

In spite of the fact that the votes show the vast majority of people would prefer "something different" over the standard gridding system of points (19 wanted something different vs. 3 who wanted standard gridding) - I guess the potential for "I told you so" is now too high, and so we should abort and remove any thing that could be considered creative or forward thinking from this discussion.

I've already taken plenty of heat for the 250 class as it is - "for forcing it on the MRA" and "It's a conflict of interest because I stand to benefit financially from the creation of the class" (wtf ????? - I took all the financial risk, went to California and picked up all of the bikes on my own dime, and sold them for exactly what I paid for them...) Not one of my better investments for sure. I guess I'd rather not also be blamed for an incident on track which could be attributed to creative gridding (instead of rider error or aggression, which would be the real cause).

The 250 cup has the HIGHEST overall pre-entry of all the classes (33 entries) - and 250's make up almost 20% of the total race entries for this weekend. Something like 13 of the 20 or so participants are either "new members" or "returning members" who had left the club. Further, these bikes are ALL new to Colorado racing so our shops and class sponsors have enjoyed the revenue generated from bike sales, parts sales and bike set-up. Colorado Class would be canceled if not for the 250's, and LWGP has 24 entries this weekend. Say what you want, but 250 Production Cup is a success and hasn't even seen a single lap of competition yet.

My suggestion, at this point, is that we vote at the riders meeting on Saturday with these options:

1) By Points

2) By practice times

By practice times would be more inviting (less discouraging?) to people who can only participate one of the two days, or people who travel to race with us. And the bikes are slow enough, that it would be unlikely that it would interfere with other people who are simply "practicing".

If the members would like to bring additional ideas to the vote, they are welcome to suggest them. I will abstain regardless.

:?