2-Fiddy 4-Hour Endurance

[findgold]

This post is getting a little old and I didn't read everything, none of you know me etc. but I would like to add my 2 cents worth..

first I started racing before many of todays racers were born...
second I just may have more hours of endurance roadracing motorcycles then many of todays riders have laps...I have been in 2,4,6,8,12, and 24hr races..

The 250's should be allowed to race and scored in their own class..
as are the bigger bikes scored in their own classes..

stright a way speeds of the little bikes are slow..IE. make passing very easy for faster bikes.. and in most corners they can hold their own...

I have raced my Ninjette down at Arroyo Seco and so far I have the only 250 their in lightweight I am up against sv650's other classes I race in I am against everything else that races their. I get lapped by almost all the bikes in most of the races.. NO PROBLEM SO FAR..

I can hardly wait to race with you guys in your 250 class this May..

[The GECCO]

stright a way speeds of the little bikes are slow..IE. make passing very easy for faster bikes.. and in most corners they can hold their own...

I have raced my Ninjette down at Arroyo Seco and so far I have the only 250 their in lightweight I am up against sv650's other classes I race in I am against everything else that races their. I get lapped by almost all the bikes in most of the races.. NO PROBLEM SO FAR..

All due respect, your comparison is not apples to apples. As you point out, the straightaway speeds are what counts, and the longest straight at Arroyo Seco is 35% shorter than the one at HPR, and the straight at Arroyo Seco is preceded by a tighter radius turn. This will have a drastic effect on the closing speeds.

On my SS legal R1 I've been clocked at 161 on radar at HPR, I know some of the SB spec bikes are going at least 5mph faster. The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane. This is the equivalent of driving through a parking lot at 70-75mph. I submit that the closing speeds at Arroyo Seco are much less.

The 4 hour race is the only time the 250's would be up against a 1000, either SS or SB spec. They would not often be up against 600's, which are only 10-15 mph slower. You say the high closing speeds make passing "very easy" for bigger bikes, but it's also what makes any collision between the two potentially disastrous.

[JimWilson29]

The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane.

[hcr25]

And i mean with all due respect Our 4hr race had 60 some racers on the track at the same time. When i raced Arroyo Seco a couple of years ago i dont remember the biggest grid being over 15 riders, maybe this has changed. The main problem i saw last year beyond the closing speed on the 250's was some of the guys were not holding their lines and some were not even on the traditional race line. I would guess the cause of this was for some it was the first weekend ever on the lil bike. If the 250's are out there we will get around them. Some might have less paint though
Mike

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Will the "drop it out of a plane" thing be legal in the 250 cup races , or just the endurance races?

[Bueller999]

Hey Mike remember if you suck the vinyl wrap off of Tony's bike the static cling will attach it to your bike and add a bit more drag. :lol:

[findgold]

And i mean with all due respect Our 4hr race had 60 some racers on the track at the same time. When i raced Arroyo Seco a couple of years ago i dont remember the biggest grid being over 15 riders, maybe this has changed. The main problem i saw last year beyond the closing speed on the 250's was some of the guys were not holding their lines and some were not even on the traditional race line. I would guess the cause of this was for some it was the first weekend ever on the lil bike. If the 250's are out there we will get around them. Some might have less paint though
Mike

And I have been in races that had 3 waves of 60 bikes..(Pocono- Road Atlanta tho very long tracks) and true small grids at A.S. But A.S. is a short tight track.

And I can't tell you how many times someone has passed me on my Ninjette on the straight or stuffed me at the end of straight just to become a portable road block thru the turns till the next straight...So 250 riders aren't the only ones that have no idea as to good race lines..

If you are an expert club racer you should not have any trouble passing a slower rider/bike almost anywhere on the track. AND DO IT IN A SAFE MANNER

But get a good rider on a 250 and the only place you will be able to pass is on the straights..or in some of the lesser turns where you can HP past..don't ya know; :twisted:

[oldtimer]

Does everyone still get a blue ribbon, or are we racing for anything this year?

I *heart* you Shannon

[findgold]

The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane.

Are you guys telling me that the MRA Ninjettes won't top out over 90 on a longer straight at HPR

How many feet above sea level is HPR?

Can hardly wait to race with you guys/gals this year. :mrgreen:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

This is the equivalent of driving through a parking lot at 70-75mph.

That's a perfect analogy, with the exception that the cars in the parking lot are not moving around as come up on them.

[polar x]

Why dont we all just get OBAMA involved and let him solve this "perceived" safety issue :roll: :roll: He did a great job with Health care.

Seriously, I have come on up on some of our lesser experienced riders in Endurance and have shaved (as have a lot of you) the paint several times. Seriously, WHO FREAKING CARES :evil: Why is this even a issue. IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??

To keep them out of the END races is elitist, and just plain ignorant. And its being done to a group that this club is cultivating (thanks Tony) to start a future for new riders and cheaper racing.

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:

Well, heck, let's just cut to the chase.

NAZI! HITLER!


There, we're done.


(for an explanation, see Wikipedia - Godwin's Law)

[rybo]

Why dont we all just get OBAMA involved and let him solve this "perceived" safety issue :roll: :roll: He did a great job with Health care.

Seriously, I have come on up some of our lesser experienced riders in Endurance and have shaved (as have a lot of you) the paint several times. Seriously, WHO FREAKING CARES :evil: Why is this even a issue. IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??

To keep them out of the END races is elitist, and just plain ignorant. And its being done to a group that this club is cultivating (thanks Tony) to start a future for new riders and cheaper racing.

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:

JEEEZ Chris,

You've been a member of the MRA for 7 years. Don't you know that making sense on the forums is like beating your head against a wall? ](*,)

I think it's been said before, and I agree with it, there were plenty of slower riders on the course during last years race. In 3 hours we had exactly one bike fall down, zero collisions and at no time when I was on the track did I feel that the speed differential between riders made the event unsafe.

I respectfully disagree that putting the bikes out there creates a hazard that is analogous to riding a motorcycle 70 MPH through a parking lot. The racetrack is a "one way" environment and everyone out there knows which way that is. The parking lot is the furthest thing from a one way environment and people's actions in parking lots is highly unpredictable.

Historically the rule has been "hold your line, it's the faster riders job to execute a safe pass". Why shouldn't that be the same for this event? During my time in this race last year I passed considerably slower riders in every section of the track often with great closing speed. I found that so long as I was doing my job and staying aware executing a safe pass was easier the slower the other bike was going. I hope the same was true for other riders passing me, because there were some seriously fast guys out there who didn't seem to have any problem finding their way around me.

This is club racing. I believe that we will always have the problem of closing speeds regardless of the bikes we choose to put on the track The issue here is less about the bike and more about the rider driving it.

One more thing, I had the GPS on my ninja at a couple of the last trackdays and I can confirm that they exceed 90 MPH on the straight at HPR. My max was 97 according to the GPS, which I'm pretty sure is accurate. Perhaps there was a bit of a tailwind, I can't say that I honestly remember.

S

[Bueller999]

IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??

This is what I was thinking also, as this will also be something that will present itself in practice to a somewhat lesser degree, but still a 600 on any of the longer straights will still generate a higher than usual closing speed.
If there is a preferred line that would facilitate an easier pass I would be all for it. If we can get everyone on the same page it would probably be beneficial.
When I was practicing I was surrendering the outside race line on the back staight and between 6 & 7 to the faster traffic, so there was an easy way around me on both sides, without sudden unpredictable changes and I was close enough to the line that entering the turn did not throw me off.

[polar x]

(for an explanation, see Wikipedia - Godwin's Law)

I like that :P :P :P There needs to be a OBAMA rule. 8) 8) 8) Once invoked the validity of ones argument is null and void or considered so superior as to invalidate all remarks to defend said position. :wink: :wink:

Thank Jim :idea: :idea:


Bueller is right, though I agree with Scott, if the ninja's hold there lines then the whole passing experience becomes mute...you as the passer are responsible for passing safely. This will work just as it works now with slower bikes and slower riders. You guys (\00\) are truly making a mountain out of a mole hill. If we are wrong \/ then let the carnage prove your point in the short endurance races we already have. It will show up there first. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[rforsythe]

As one of the slower riders getting routinely passed during the endurance marathon, I will attest that the guys (and gals) on the fast bikes did a fantastic job executing safe passes and riding overall. HPR is a big ass track with lots of room, and come on - it's a four hour race give or take, so even if you can't safely pass someone in that corner you can easily get around them later. Letting the racer in front gain a tiny advantage while you get stuck in traffic just doesn't mean much in a long race with pit stops, and everyone seemed to play nicely.

Given the extraordinary quality of riding and mutual courtesy shown among riders at the last one, I'd have no issue putting the ninjette's out there in the mix as well.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I like that :P :P :P <snip> Thank Jim :idea: :idea:

I thought you might like that, Cooner. I think I'm getting to know you pretty well after all these years.

I respectfully disagree that putting the bikes out there creates a hazard that is analogous to riding a motorcycle 70 MPH through a parking lot. The racetrack is a "one way" environment and everyone out there knows which way that is. The parking lot is the furthest thing from a one way environment and people's actions in parking lots is highly unpredictable.

I took what Glenn meant is a parking lot where the cars are parked - meaning stationary. That's why I thought it was a good one.

Perhaps a more accurate analogy (for those of us who've lived & commuted in CA) is lane splitting at 70mph. That's a one way environment as well with very clear rules about lane changing.

Before I say the next statement, I totally support the having the 250's in the 4-hour. That said, I can't remember how many times we agonized over combining sprint classes in order to avoid closing speed differentials. I would think the same concerns we had then apply.

About scoring them separately - I'm a little torn. Based on personal experience, when club officials are personally invested in something there's a razor thin line between support and pandering.

[findgold]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.

If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

[The GECCO]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.

If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

[random hero]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.

If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

Yeah... S**t talking the tech guy probably isn't the best idea

[Clarkie]

Club racing RULES! :lol:

[d_mob]

Well, after all that I don't feel like we've come to any conclusions... :?

I guess the bottom line, according to the current rules, is that the 2-fiddys can't be ruled out or excluded from the endurance race.

I guess the question now is, who (with a 2-fiddy) is interested in participating? I'm 100% in (as a solo rider) if there is a separate scoring system. If not, there is really no reason for me to join.

Scott, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you mention the possibility of separate scoring if there are 10 or more bikes?

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

PS... Do we really need "separate" scoring/timing? Won't there be a list of all riders at the end showing number of laps per transponder/bike? Couldn't we just isolate the 2-fiddys and award accordingly?

PSS... How in the world did Obama come up in this thread? :roll:

[The GECCO]

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

NO!

Instruct slower traffic to simply stay on the racing line, wherever it may be (right/left). Tell them DO NOT, under any circumstances, attempt to "get out of the way". The key here is predictability. If the overtaking rider can predict where the slower bike will go, he can pass safely.

Few things scare me more than having a slower rider look back and see me coming because suddenly I have to wonder what he's going to to. If he does the correct thing (essentially nothing) I can get around him just fine, it's when he decides to "get out of the way" that things get sketchy.

[The GECCO]

Club racing RULES! :lol:

Be quiet Aaron!

DON'T MAKE ME STOP THIS CAR!!!! :shock:

[findgold]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.

If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

Yeah... S**t talking the tech guy probably isn't the best idea

I don't care who or what bartman is or does.. What I say here is how I feel about his remarks here..

And I may be new to you guys But I am not new to roadracing Mototcycles tho I haven't been around for a few years I did race a few seasons with MRA back in the mid-late 80's But not many are around that would know/remember..

I find it a shame that some of you are so thin skinned that my remarkds here offend
and a few of you seem to me to be biased against small displacement and slower bikes on the track..

As I have mentioned before I AM a veteran of many endurance races..
as long as the 24hr of Nelson Ledges of Ohio.. Have any of you EVER done any night time road racing? You should try it sometime...

And maybe something needs to change if everyone is in such fear of offending the tech guy! ](*,)