Allow 850 twins into Supertwins GTU

[dave.gallant]

this is why we made LWGP basically an SV / EX class. get rid of the exotics (TX, 749, etc...) and make it about racing again...

Anybody ever wonder...

If Ducati made a bike with "normal displacement" like everyone else - would it still be the class of the field?

Surely I'm not the only one to catch on to their "build a cheater bike (via displacement advantage) and put pressure on the racing organizations to allow it into classes we know it will dominate" technique employed by the bolognianians.

crafty little bastards they are... :lol:

Damn Eye-talians!

I am too lazy to go look; how are the entries for LWGP this year? Are they up or down?

Applehans and I and a few other nut-jobs could simply be oddballs in the want for a more level lightweight twin class. If no one show up with them then there is no place for me to complain simply because there is no support for it.

If that is the case, I say "whack it" and lump all of the twins together into one big mess and give a 250/650 spec class a shot.

Speaking of which -- Marty -- I know you are reading this. Go out into your garage and put together my damn 250!

[Scored51]

Anybody ever wonder...

If Ducati made a bike with "normal displacement" like everyone else - would it still be the class of the field?

Surely I'm not the only one to catch on to their "build a cheater bike (via displacement advantage) and put pressure on the racing organizations to allow it into classes we know it will dominate" technique employed by the bolognianians.

crafty little bastards they are... :lol:

Probably not. Ducati's bedfellows, Ferrari, have a loooong history of doing things like this. At one point, Enzo convinced the governing body of the world sportscar series that he would make enough 250 GTO's to meet homoligation rules if they would let it race. History tells us they were all just too darn busy winning races to get around to building the production cars.

[dave.gallant]

Oh my!

[Hotrod]

Dave "I hate all little twins" Gallant said:"If that is the case, I say "whack it" and lump all of the twins together into one big mess and give a 250/650 spec class a shot. "


Damnit, there you go again! STOP THAT!

[oldtimer]

LWGP has been decent, 8-12 bikes per weekend, about the same number as TwinsU. I like the 250 class as a separate wave behind LWGP idea I've heard floated around.

[TRK]

848.................same bike that just won an AMA national event with a privateer on board?

[Jon]

The 848 should reside in the middleweight classes IMO,Like it really matters though as I'm not a MRA racer

[dave.gallant]

848.................same bike that just won an AMA national event with a privateer on board?

Probably makes the same HP as the 749R.

I'd say let it run LW Endurance as well!!

[Bartman]

The 848 should reside in the middleweight classes IMO,Like it really matters though as I'm not a MRA racer

You could be a MRA racer again all you gots to do is show up with your bike and a white russian and it will be just like old times. Come play you slacker.

[Munch]

For some perspective:

My 2006 749R made 113.33 HP / 57.69 lb-ft of torque, on Bart's dyno on pump fuel. Stock trim was about 404 pounds, I've probably shaved 20 pounds off mine. I'm sure there's alot more that could be done with the motor on race fuel, a nemesis and engine blueprinting...

The 2010 848's numbers are 134 HP / 70.8 lb-ft of torque, dry weight of 370 pounds.
The 2011 EVO 848 is 140 HP / 72.3 lb-ft of torque

As I'd like to see the 848 allowed, it would kill any chance of an SV beating it (considering riders being equal). I think this has been the biggest objection to letting the 848 join the current class as it's defined. I'm the only 749 in the class this year it seems. The rest are SV's and TZ's.

I know the big bore on the 749R's are close to 140HP. Skip might be able to chime in on his numbers.

It's the same arm's race issues we have with any other class.

If we let it in, lemmie know ASAP, as I want one! I'll have BMS build it over the winter!! :twisted:

[Jon]

I'm choosing my method of staying out of this debate by simple looking at the rules of other more prominent clubs n regards to this. Do they allow 848/749s in their lightweight classes?
Maybe the board will stick behind you, maybe they won't but regardless you'll be considered cheating. I've raced across the country on SV 650's and won, EX650's and won, and Ducati's and won even though I've been protested I've won that too....Always good for some pocket change.
Regardless, if you read the rules and follow them to the tee, I have found people who just can't stand when they think you've got an unfair advantage and use it. I would say that you guys need to really think about this before you further alienate even more racers from your membership.

[dave.gallant]

:roll:

[Jon]

Dave,
Where in the same hell do you come up with these things?

[dave.gallant]

Dave,
Where in the same hell do you come up with these things?

You can find ANYTHING on the interwebs!

[Munch]

I think we are trying to take into consideration the number and types of bikes we have in the class, and what makes the most sense for the club. If we open up the class to 848's, I'm guessing most of our current SV650 riders are not going to run out and get one. However, I'm sure someone will certainly jump on the opportunity to run an 848 and dominate the class. Who has a decent sized wallet usually has an advantage. I also recognize that those riders with more skill also have an advantage. That's racing. In time others will follow, and eventually you will not find a SV650 running in STGTU. But obviously the classes need to adjust to keep up with what's goings on technically.

If we let 848's in, I'd run one or drop a big bore in mine - whichever made more cost effective sense.

Or heck Jon, I can buy your cheater bike this winter if you wanna sell it!!

[froth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdOVONtnsj0

:roll:

[Jon]

Excellent song with an excellent cast of musicians. Thanks there Fred

[froth]

No worries. Now get out there and take some friggin trophies home!

[hcr25]

I think it is funny that a any racer thinks that this is a fair idea. The 848 is a middle weight bike. It is raced with 600's all over the country and in world supersport. Just like the 749r was.

Why are we trying to cater to the few? A number of years ago Dave and I raced sv's in ST GTU with Moham and a few others. It was a very competitive class. Then came along a 749r. 120 plus horse power in a bike that was made to race, against a sport touring bike. Seems fair right?
Very few supported the idea of banning the 749r from the class. Why you ask, because in my opinion we cater to the few. The next year of this class it was less competitive because several of us sold our sv's. It would

Ask yourself this, If Turpin was on a sv 650 do you think he could win ROR U?

Now what if he was on a 848 or a 749r?

[dave.gallant]

If Turpin could win on an SV, Clarkie could win on a bigwheel!



:shock:





(bout damn time you showed up to the conversation Mikey)

[dave.gallant]

Oh, and for the record, Shane is one of the best 748/DUcati riders I have ever seen.

He literally rode the wheels of Ben Fox's 748 at PPIR with the AMA one year on his way to I think 4th or 5th in Pro Thunder. Ben will chime in, but it was an amazing ride.

[Desmodromico]

If we are trying to make this an SV class then keep it out by all means and ban the 749R as well (sorry Munch), however I thought that was what LWGP was for?

The reason I brought this up last year is there is no way in hell 90% of the club members could be competitive in NovU, AmU, or MWSB on an SV650, many could be on an 848 or 749R and thus make it a more attractive ride for those who want to race a twin and bring in more entries, plus the 749/748 could run a big bore and get a new lease on life as well. The real issue is not the twins it is having a bike that you can run in many classes and be competitive, and the 600's are so damn fast an SV is like a squirt gun in those classes. Shannon rides the wheels off his highly tricked out SV, but he wouldn't have won the last NovU race, so what does that say about where we stand with the bike?

Frankly the 848 would be significantly cheaper to run than a 749R, and those things are scarce anyhow. 848's are popping up like weeds for sale everywhere and I see them on the street all the time.

[hcr25]

If we are trying to make this an SV class then keep it out by all means and ban the 749R as well (sorry Munch), however I thought that was what LWGP was for?

The reason I brought this up last year is there is no way in hell 90% of the club members could be competitive in NovU, AmU, or MWSB on an SV650, many could be on an 848 or 749R and thus make it a more attractive ride for those who want to race a twin and bring in more entries, plus the 749/748 could run a big bore and get a new lease on life as well. The real issue is not the twins it is having a bike that you can run in many classes and be competitive, and the 600's are so damn fast an SV is like a squirt gun in those classes. Shannon rides the wheels off his highly tricked out SV, but he wouldn't have won the last NovU race, so what does that say about where we stand with the bike?



You are missing some history here. Twins U was more of an sv class then anything else before the 749r came on the seen. At the time Suzuki paid in STGTU. Suzuki then moved the contingency money to LWGP because the 749r was a middle weight bike and had a unfair advantage.

If the 848 is allowed in STGTU it will make the sv have two classes to be competitive in. LWGP and LW endurance.

The 848 would be competitive in novice gtu and gto. and both amateur classes. It would also be competitive in both mw ss and sb both hw ss and sb classes, both mw and hw endurance and ROR U.
So because one or two guys have or want an 848 we need to allow them to race in STGTU so they have another class they can compete in?
Frankly the 848 would be significantly cheaper to run than a 749R, and those things are scarce anyhow. 848's are popping up like weeds for sale everywhere and I see them on the street all the time.

[oldtimer]

Speaking as a former 848 owner I think it would be a fun and competitive bike in the middleweight classes--which it's already eligible for in the MRA. Any novice or expert can already buy one and go win NovU, NovO, AmU, AmO, MWSB, HWSB, RoRU, endurance, etc etc.

But if we also push that bike down into the little bike classes it may run off racers we already have, who already own competitive bikes for these classes. The 848 has tons of classes it's eligible for and competitive in, and the little bikes don't. Doesn't make sense to me to give that bike even more classes, when our little bike racers have so few now.

Having said that, I think you guys SHOULD go buy 848's and storm the am classes next year if you'll both be experts. They'd do great!

[oldtimer]

Oops I guess Mikey already said that. 8)