Longer Endurance Races in 2011 **POLL ADDED**

[rybo]

One of the common themes following our long endurance race is a desire for more long endurance events in 2010. That being said we have an existing class structure in endurance that is very popular and I think it would be wise to keep what is already one of our most popular classes. With that in mind here are some ideas for discussion:

Assuming an 8 event season again next year:

Keep the Four Hour endurance at Round 5 and expand on our success there.

OPTION 1:

Add two 1.5 hour endurance events during the season by alternating the LW/MW with the HW/Open events.

Example
R1- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R2- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R3- 90 minute LW/MW endurance
R4-30 Minute Endurance Races
R5- 4 hour endurance relay
R6- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R7- 90 Minute HW/Open Endurance
R8- 30 Minute Endurance Races

Schedule impact: Almost none

Revenue impact: Could go either way.

1) Losing two endurance classes two weekends out of the season may have a negative impact.

or

2) The longer events could draw more racers both from our existing ranks and from traveling racers.


OPTION 2:

Add two 1 hour endurance events during the season by alternating the LW/MW with the HW/Open events and having the other classes run their regular 30 minute endurance.

Example
R1- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R2- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R3- 60 minute LW/MW endurance + 30 minute HW/Open endurance
R4-30 Minute Endurance Races
R5- 4 hour endurance relay
R6- 30 Minute Endurance Races
R7- 60 Minute HW/Open Endurance + 30 minute LW/MW endurance
R8- 30 Minute Endurance Races

Schedule impact: +40 minutes to saturday schedule 2x per season

Revenue impact: Almost none


Event impact: Perhaps would draw out of state racers to the longer events, fill the verbalized want for some longer endurance events, and offer some variety to our race program without a permanent alteration of the existing popular endurance class structure.

discuss

[rforsythe]

Yes, have some. I like #1 personally.

[Snowman]

Would you be scored for the season for all the races you race or would you separate out the team vs individual events?

[Scored51]

So we would award the same 15 points in the four hour relay as we did this year?

[joe859]

I'm assuming that the 1 or 1.5 hour races would be solo riders? I'd be very interested in that. Same point structure as the 30 minute. I'm still having an internal debate about how the points should work for the 4 hour. We had a lot of riders who didn't care at all about points, but there are others who would care a lot.

[froth]

How cool is it that we had racers going and racing for fun, not concerned about points? Very cool, they was just racing!

[rybo]

My thought was that all events would be solo events except the 4 hour race.

The 4 hour race remains a flat point total for participation. I'm open to other ideas for scoring this race in the solo endurance structure, but as you make suggestions please remember the following: Our system isn't really set up to allow more than one person occupy any one finishing position. By design there can only be one 1st place finisher, one 2nd place finisher and so on. To award a flat point total for all participants was one thing, but if your suggestion involves 4 people getting 1st and 3 people getting 2nd etc, that is going to be a very challenging thing to write into our database / scoring system and will require a huge effort to make possible.

The other long events are solo event and are scored exactly like our current 30 minute solo events are.


After doing a 1.5 hour team endurance (as a solo rider) at Miller this past weekend I'm liking this idea more and more. Riding the event solo was a total kick in the pants and I would do it again for sure if the opportunity presented itself.

In the 1.5 hour race I made 1 fuel / water / pee stop at about the 1 hour mark.

a 1 hour race was totally doable without a stop.


More feedback please!

Scott

[polar x]

1.5 hour race is the way to go....why waste time on anything shorter that could be done without a stop..sorta defeats the purpose of a "endurance" race.

[Scored51]

To award a flat point total for all participants was one thing, but if your suggestion involves 4 people getting 1st and 3 people getting 2nd etc, that is going to be a very challenging thing to write into our database / scoring system and will require a huge effort to make possible.

The practical application would also be difficult for awarding points. The club would need to decide about class eligibility, but here's what would need to happen.

Option A: A relay team would need to be restricted to a single class (LW, MW, HW, or Open) to award points, and the race would be run like any other mixed class race. The consequence would be each team being comprised of members that normal race against each other would negate the purpose of awarding points points as up to six riders would all receive first place points in each of the classes.

Option B: Awarding points in class based on an overall finish place. Again, you would have mulitple people being awarded the same place finish, and the results would be biased towards who could secure the fastest Open class riders for there team.

The other devil in the detail is our current scoring infastructure. If a legitimate protest were to arise, it could easily overwhelm our ability to resolve the issue with an audit trail in such a massive race. With scoring, many mistakes are found in finding where the needle should be in the haystack. This could mean trying to find where one lap SHOULD be in a pile of thousands. A four hour endurance with the same level of participation as this year would yield almost 7,000 laps. If the race were run at PPIR, it would be 15,000.

[Snowman]

On second thought, scrapping the whole points idea and just racing for the hell of it is a good thing.

[oldtimer]

In the 1.5 hour race I made 1 fuel / water / pee stop at about the 1 hour mark.

a 1 hour race was totally doable without a stop.

More feedback please!

I think we're trying to understand if there's a breaking point for the solo endurance riders--as in most people agree 30 minutes for $60 is a great value, but if the race was 1.5 hours long would a percentage get turned off and stop running the class? What about 1 hour? What about 45 minutes?

Last year there was a vote and the question was should solo endurance be 30 minutes or 45 minutes. The vote went with 30 minutes and the class has been a huge success this year. It would not be good to have 50% of the endurance field happy with a longer race, and the other 50% quit running the class. This is a great topic for tomorrow's general meeting, and maybe the Saturday riders meeting when all the endurance racers are present.

[Hotrod]

For my outta shape A$$ I prefer the half hour endurance just the way it is. Doing the 4 hour event was fun, on a once a year kinda basis. If we were to include several longer events, I would have to strongly consider whether the extra wear and tear on my bike is worth it. Even on a team taking shifts, there came a point where the 4 hour event just became a grind and wasn't as much fun as it started out at. I would totally do it again and fully plan on being in much better shape in the near future. However, my times and finishes for the rest of the weekend did suffer. I would rather run 30 minutes on a regular basis with one 4 hour event per year.

I would suspect that a large part of the draw of that event was the novelty of it and that it wouldn't be as heavily attended if it were a regularly offered menu item.

[froth]

Linc: That's the fun of endurance. Totally rag yourself out! My favorite stuff (wen I'm actually able to race)

[phildrummond]

I'm totally in for longer races, even if entry fees reflect the longer time. Maybe $75 or $100 for the long races to compensate for the (who knows?) smaller grid. My desires are:

Race for 1.5 hours. Agree with Christopher...pit stop was a huge part of the fun and then there's strategy, fueling, tire choice, pit staff...all things to consider in a 1.5 hour race. For 1 hour, no need to stop. And it'll separate those that actualy train and hydrate for a long race.

Points - Give me the points I get. Sure, it was endurance for the hell of it this year but I busted arse to do well and got the same points as the guy that got last, treating it as an open track day and doing a few 20-min stints.

Longer races to be held at HPR. This provides potentially more revenue to our own track. Pueblo is also hot and dry. Safer to be a bit cooler and hydrated at HPR. Further, if it rains at Pueblo, we're either DNS or DNF.

Finally, for the love of little baby Jesus lying in a manger...let's look at how to start the 4-hr prior to 3pm. Even without the NovU bowling tournament this year, we'd have been finishing at dark.

Great fun, either way. I'm in for anything.

[gsnyder828]

My thought was that all events would be solo events except the 4 hour race.

The 4 hour race remains a flat point total for participation.

The other long events are solo event and are scored exactly like our current 30 minute solo events are.

More feedback please!

Scott

I like the structure you've proposed - with the longer solo events counting toward the year end points, but not the team event. It's different enough that it warrants separate scoring.

For the first year, I'd suggest not going past the 1hr mark on the longer solos - as much as I'd welcome it - b/c adding pit stops brings in the requirement of having a crew, etc. and a lot of solo riders come out and do the events unsupported. I guess one way to get around this would be to make a 1 bike requirement (no swapping bikes) and a no crew over pit wall requirement - so everyone's on equal footing regarding pit stops. Rider has to do all of it...

I'd also support increased $$ for the longer events and double points...

I'd also go for 45m races all season, but I know I'm in the minority on that one.

[rybo]

I've added a poll to this thread because I think we're getting good feedback.


IF YOU ARE RACING ENDURANCE THIS YEAR or PLAN ON RACING ENDURANCE NEXT SEASON

Please take a second and vote in the poll

[NossLou]

Very excited to see how this turns out. Judging from a financial standpoint this season this may be the only class I might be participating in next year.

questions/suggestions.

1. I think the 4 hour should include a purse...qualifying and points just like ROR...and place finished should be awarded the place in points as like any other race. Hell if its 80 bucks instead of 60, at least there would be a bit more competition for finishing, those who are participating for fun would still enjoy it as they did this year. Either way i'm in!



I also agree with the one bike suggestion. However I think a support crew is sort of a necessity in the solo class... Getting off the bike out of position was the worst thing I could have done after my first pit.... muscles and reflexes get all out of whack and the first couple of laps back out after each pit were quite nerve racking and dangerous as a rider.... body response was not there... then the groove and feeling came back. Plus handling fuel and hydration as a solo rider would be quite difficult while trying to keep a focused mind set and a cool bike in pit.


Who is familiar with the WERA endurance series.... I have read through a bit of their structure and found it appealing... just a thought


See you all in the 4hr solo class...that was one of the most difficult and greatest learning experiences I have ever had on the track.... next to rain racing!

[vroomnut]

I agree with Mr. Snyder as I am usually out by myself for the weekend with no one around to help with pit stops. A 45 minute or 1 hour format though would be do-able for a single rider.

[girlducrider]

I liked the 4-hour endurance race and I would definitely do it again. Having a team was fun and different and it just added to the weekend. If endurance races bring in out of state riders and revenue then let's do it and if it only brings in out of state riders let's do it anyway! The more the merrier

[nwatkins176]

I voted to keep it the same. I personally was hoping to see talk about team endurance series using one bike etc. Basically benchmarking CMRA's successfull series. I am one of the few that race both endurances and I love it. If we can't do team then changing the lenght of the endurance races might force me to choose which endurance to race.

[chrobis]

I voted for adding the 1 hr races, but truthfully am with Geoff in prefering to inch up to longer races, i.e., start with some 45's and see how that goes.

The team event was an interesting break from the normal, but as Phil pointed out, awarding points just for entering seems to diminish the efforts of those who really put out. I'd go for separating it from the non team events and and treating it as its own special beast. If that were the case classes could be defined as the rating of the most capable bike on a team - want the Middleweight Team Endurance trophy: just run middleweights and lightweights.

[nwatkins176]

I actually reread this and I am liking option one. So basically the endurance racing will be a 6 round championship. If I am ONLY racing Middleweight I will sit out when HV weight is doing their 1 hour and during the team thing. That wouldn't be bad. change my vote to option one.

I race both series so the one hour thing would be fun. Thanks.