Top 10 Plates via Clubman points Discussion

[oldtimer]

This is Chris's suggestion from the main 2011 Rule Change Thread http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=11486

His post copied below:

Change:

7.2 A. Race Of the Rockies GTO (ROR GTO) points will accrue toward top ten number plates, for the following season. Accrued points in Race Of the Rockies GTO are the only way a top ten number plate may be earned.

Suggestion:

7.2 A. Points will accrue in all sprint and endurance classes towards a Clubman Championship for every rider. The Top ten number plates (1-10) for the following season will be awarded to the ten highest scoring riders in order of rank regardless of novice or expert. The Clubman Championship is the only way a top ten number plate may be earned. Competitors in the Sportsman class are excluded due to a non-championship status.


Economic Benefit:

- I believe this plan encourages riders to sign up for more classes as everyone has a shot at the number one plate. If this plan were in place last year, a novice would be in the top ten right now. The number of active members in this club continues to decline. Futhermore, race registrations are generating less revenue for the club per rider now than when we were screaming bankrupcy! Last year our Board of Director's estimated we were generating $200 per rider; now it is as low as $178. That's between $17,600 - $22,800 less this year than last based on 100-130 riders in only 8 races.


Harder Working Riders:

- Historically only 50% of the riders earning top ten plates would utilize the privelige of running them. Therefore, it is a wasted honor to restrict these numbers to the top ten in Race of Rockies GTO. Currently the grids are still small enough in this class that only the top ten riders in the series have actually scored points at all five rounds to date. Without completing a single lap in the 2010 season, a rider at this point would be sitting in 12th place in the ROR-O championship and would have collected a payout check at every round. So do we want to award a top ten plate to a rider that has done little more than show up on the right grid each weekend, or do we want to show the honor and reward those who are generating more revenue for the club throughout an entire season by working hard at entering as many races as they possible can?

The Big Downfall:

- The only downfall I see in this plan is that Otis will actually have to pick an permanent expert number unless he starts showing up with more bikes.


Even knowing I'd be in the running for a top 10 plate this year based on accrued Clubman points, I've always thought this was a lame way to award top 10 plates. I prefer my top 10 plates to go to the fastest consistent finishers in the fastest meanest class. If it makes you feel better Chris, I PROMISE I'll run my plate if/when I ever earn one.

[hcr25]

A top 10 plate is something to be proud of for sure. Its to bad more of the guys who earn them dont run them. My guess is maybe 2 or 3 guys a year run them.

In my opinion the top ten plate should be for ROR O riders. That being said the clubman championship could have a top ten plate with a different color background for being the overall points leaders.
Mike

[rybo]

Mike,

The different colored background thing doesn't work. The database for scoring is set up so that each rider in an individual season has a unique competition (and club membership) number between 1 and 999. Changing this would require a massive rewrite of our existing scoring system. While I think it would be cool, only one rider can have the #1 and only one rider can have the #25.

Another option would be to reserve the numbers 11-20 for the top ten clubman riders.....but that presents problems as well, such as #11 is retired and there are going to be riders who earn both a top 10 and a top clubman #, eliminating yet another 2 digit number that someone may otherwise occupy.


As a general rule I think awarding the top ten plates to the winners of our premier class has been the right way to go. The best riders on the fastest bikes period. I think participation in our premier classes has been a bit low and I don't know how we go about increasing it. Increasing payout is one suggestion, but that comes at the price of viability for the rest of the club.

I think this is a great and very debatable rule change suggestion. I don't know which way I'd vote on it today.

s

[oldtimer]

Related to acknowledging our top racers, I'd like to note the following section in the rulebook.

Sec.5.3.C.Number Display Regulations
...Expert class champions from the previous MRA season are permitted to use white numbers on a black background with the same size and style restrictions.

No one elects to use this option but it's a cool idea. I suppose if you went to race with another club you'd have to convert to the white plate/black number and that might be a pain... But it would be impressive to see the class champions out on the track with special plates identifying them next year.

[hcr25]

Scott, I understand. Im just looking at it from another point of view. It seems most of the ROR O riders dont care to run the number they earn. If a top 10 plate for the points championship gets more riders to race more classes wouldn't that benefit the club more? More riders racing more classes brings in more money. This is what the club needs. Maybe then we could add some prize money to the ROR payout.

[Scored51]

I want the #1 plate to go to the girl who's consistently the fastest.

I agree with you completely! However, the riders in ROR-O are not the fastest riders. None of the absoute track records currently held in this club were set in an ROR race. (note: I will need a little help from JenJen to verify ST's record at PMP in '04 - but all others were set in either Open SuperSport or SuperBike.)

As a general rule I think awarding the top ten plates to the winners of our premier class has been the right way to go. The best riders on the fastest bikes period.

- With the above statement, are they the fastest?
- What makes the GTO riders "more premier" than the GTU competitors since we don't give them special plates?
- What if a Clubman Championship can raise the entry fees per rider?

When Charlie Johnson gave that great presentation to the MRA about running a CB160 class, he said that it didn't matter who the riders were in their club where it originated (fast, slow, big bike, little bike). They ran the class in order to score more points towards a clubman type of championship. That sounds like more race registration revenue. It is also another opportunity to sell sponsorship of the program and generate greater contingency for the club. Maybe all of this can be accomplished for the coming year by our killer team of PR and selling volunteers. If voted into the rulebook, it could be another no-cost idea like Super Street that ended up raising more money for the club.

I'm not suggesting the club cuts into any of the prize money offered to ROR-O riders. However, it is evident with an average grid of only 15 this season and only 4 riders using a top ten plate in the class; the interest in assigning the numbers 1-10 in ROR-O mostly resides in those not lining up on the grid.

[Scored51]

Related to acknowledging our top racers, I'd like to note the following section in the rulebook.

Sec.5.3.C.Number Display Regulations
...Expert class champions from the previous MRA season are permitted to use white numbers on a black background with the same size and style restrictions.

No one elects to use this option but it's a cool idea. I suppose if you went to race with another club you'd have to convert to the white plate/black number and that might be a pain... But it would be impressive to see the class champions out on the track with special plates identifying them next year.

When it was first voted into existence, quite a number of people took advantage of the new rule and displayed white on black. It became muddied when the class champs would run in another class. So now there were two white numbers on black plates in one race. In theory there would be as many as 22 black plates running around in as many as half a dozen classes each. Five classes of which, they weren't the champ.

See? Clear as mud!

[rybo]

I still think the white on black is super cool. While it may not denote THE class champion for whatever race is being run, it does denote A class champion.


As far as fastest riders on fastest bikes.....I'm guessing, and this is just a guess here, that the riders and bikes that hold the class records in open superbike are the same riders on the same bikes as the ones raced in ROR.

Of course lap record times aren't set in ROR, it's twice the distance and later in the day. If ROR were the same distance I'm guessing (and again, this is just a guess) that there would be lap records set in that class.

[oldtimer]

- What if a Clubman Championship can raise the entry fees per rider?

That's the one part I like. I'll have to think about it more, overall I'd say I'm still a purist and would want the top 10 plates awarded in the premier class...but motivating more entries is tempting.

Incidentally, that was the whole point of our current Clubman Championship. We just got going with the standings late due to everything else we've been trying this season. ops:

[cu260r6]

The clubs that have this type of cumulative points rule for determining their champion have seen a dramatic increase in costs for the racers. In order to win the club championship a racer is all but required to have multiple bikes which dramatically increases costs just when the MRA is struggling with turnout.

[rybo]

The clubs that have this type of cumulative points rule for determining their champion have seen a dramatic increase in costs for the racers. In order to win the club championship a racer is all but required to have multiple bikes which dramatically increases costs just when the MRA is struggling with turnout.

Charles,

If we go by our current clubman standings the statement doesn't play out.

positions
2
4
5
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

all all riders riding a single bike (some have backup bikes of the same configuration), so half of the top 10 would be riders that don't have multiple bikes, but are racing up on their existing bike.

Someone on a SV can pretty much race every class in the club. Exceptions would be Colorado Class and for practicality reasons the open classes. I would suspect a well ridden SV entered in a large number of classes would still have a tire budget at, or lower than, that of a competitive ROR O rider on a liter bike. Once a rider enters 4 classes per weekend the cost per class ends at $20 each, so I'm not really sure how this massively increases the cost of racing. The bulk of my costs are getting to and staying at the races, so those remain unchanged.

It will, however, increase the fitness level of our club members [/joke]

[gsnyder828]

I guess I should weigh in since I inadvertently kicked all this off with my not so serious hope of running the #3 plate next year...

I'm sort of a purist and think that the top 10 plate should go for the premier class. The problem I see with the MRA is that there isn't a premier class at the moment. Right now there are only 10 riders in RORO who've shown up for the 1st 5 races. So mere participation in one class could feasibly earn someone a top 10 plate... that isn't very elite. On top of that, arguably lots of the best riders are in RORU...

If we get rid of RORU and go to a combined ROR - I like the status quo.

That said, I like the idea of driving additional participation & revenue through awarding top 10 plates for "overall" points leaders.

I'd expect we'd see some solid riders start riding some of the softer classes as well - filling up those grids in an effort to make points. That might not be so good for me and my SV though... ops:

I'll have to think about it... but if the rule is made retroactive, and I'm allowed to run a single digit next year - you've got my vote 8) . :mrgreen:

[hcr25]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

[cu260r6]

Charles,

If we go by our current clubman standings the statement doesn't play out.

positions
2
4
5
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

all all riders riding a single bike (some have backup bikes of the same configuration), so half of the top 10 would be riders that don't have multiple bikes, but are racing up on their existing bike.

Someone on a SV can pretty much race every class in the club. Exceptions would be Colorado Class and for practicality reasons the open classes. I would suspect a well ridden SV entered in a large number of classes would still have a tire budget at, or lower than, that of a competitive ROR O rider on a liter bike. Once a rider enters 4 classes per weekend the cost per class ends at $20 each, so I'm not really sure how this massively increases the cost of racing. The bulk of my costs are getting to and staying at the races, so those remain unchanged.

It will, however, increase the fitness level of our club members [/joke]

Sure, you're correct now because no one has that incentive given the current points structure. However, if you change it a good racer could be crowned club champion simply by having several competitive bikes racing against great racers that only have one bike. I think I'm safe in assuming we want the fastest rider crowned champ, so I see the current rules as closer to this goal than the suggested modification.

[Scored51]

Sure, you're correct now because no one has that incentive given the current points structure. However, if you change it a good racer could be crowned club champion simply by having several competitive bikes racing against great racers that only have one bike. I think I'm safe in assuming we want the fastest rider crowned champ, so I see the current rules as closer to this goal than the suggested modification.

With only two bikes ('00 SV650 and '00 R6) you can run 13 of our 22 classes. Right now Shannon, 1st place, runs 8 or 9 per weekend. When Eric Cromer won the Novice and Amateur GTU/O championships last year, he would currently be in 3rd place right now running only 4 races on one bike.

[Scored51]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

There are two different systems at work here. For the scoring software, you are correct and it doesn't make a difference as a rider is tied to a particular transponder. However, in the MRA database a rider's number is the unique ID. Therefore we can assign a rider to multiple number (i.e. Shane Turpin holding #1 and #14), but it cannot have duplicate numbers in its system (i.e Turpin #1 for ROR-O, and Ricky Orlando #1 for ROR-U).

Hope this helps.

[Scored51]

Cut and pasted without permission from the original thread:

Guys and Gal,
I hate to say I told you so but my early season prediction of who would run away with this stands and I again congratulate Shannon for the award. I've raced full seasons with many clubs across this country and little known fact is even the MRA (Mountain Roadracing Association). used to award top ten plates in this manner.
Not only does it reward the more fit riders, it actually benefits the club monetarily. CCS /SW awards the number one plate to the winner of Unlimited Gran Prix (RORO equivalent) and the number 2 through 9 plates go to the rider with the most accumulated points total. In 2009 a lightweight rider got the number 2 plate and the other plates were a mix of light, middle and open class bikes. For one, I personally like the idea as for one it awards the rider for being fit, prepared and finishing races opposed to spending the most outright$$ on the bike...

[hcr25]

How in the past has our mystical database worked when two racers used the number in the same race?

How is our race number linked to our transponder number?

There are two different systems at work here. For the scoring software, you are correct and it doesn't make a difference as a rider is tied to a particular transponder. However, in the MRA database a rider's number is the unique ID. Therefore we can assign a rider to multiple number (i.e. Shane Turpin holding #1 and #14), but it cannot have duplicate numbers in its system (i.e Turpin #1 for ROR-O, and Ricky Orlando #1 for ROR-U).

Hope this helps.

Thank you, that does help. How in the past have we been able to score two riders using the same number in the same race in our system?

[Scored51]

Thank you, that does help. How in the past have we been able to score two riders using the same number in the same race in our system?

The transponders don't care what bike your riding. A race in Hastings two years ago had three number 811's (thanks Fred for lending out all the bikes!) on the track, but we each had our own transponder. There is generally some communication over the race radios from pregrid to update start/finish and everyone else of what riders have switched bikes including duplicate numbers. In the raceday office the scoring can usually be sorted out by comparing the computer to the manual results with a fair dose of common sense.

[hcr25]

Thank you, that is what i was thinking. That being said, why would it not be possible to do this with two sets of top ten plates?

[rybo]

Mike,

A borrowed bike is one thing, a membership number and the entire scoring system is another.

In the borrowed bike instance the proper rider is scored by making sure that rider has their transponder on the bike as well as some last minute radio communications amongst the track control folks and the people doing the manual (backup) scoring. If (theoretically) there were 20 bikes doing this every weekend the workload for our track crew would be unreasonable.

For example, go look up your points for the year by number. If there were two #25's then it would be impossible to tell which points were yours and which were someone else's. It would get all the more confusing if you were in the same race with that person.

Finally, a safety reason would be that our ambulance crews emergency medical paperwork is filed by bike number. One of the reasons we started having riders put numbers on helmets is exactly for the borrowed bike scenario.

Is this "impossible"? no, but it would require a massive overhaul of our scoring and safety systems to accomplish.

[Scored51]

I think we should set it up so that each rider has a different number for every class they run! That way every class can have a top ten, spectators would all know the rankings in every race, and the ambulance crews would need a cargo trailer to carry all of the paperwork. :lol:

Always leave it to an A-hole to post something like this.

[hcr25]

What about having a zero in front of the number? Clubman points #1 plate holders number would be 01, second would be 02 ect.

On the bikes number plate a small two inch number zero to the left of the full size number earned.

[Scored51]

The MRA database can't handle the leading zero in a number. The field is numeric only. To see same type of thing, try entering a "01" into MS-Excel and see how it automatically corrects it. The timing software doesn't care because it is just a text field up to four characters. Yes, I can change your number to a four letter word.

[Jon]

Since I don't race with you guys club but did earn a number top five plate last year and Geoff really would like to have one. He can have mine for the remainder of the season. I figure regardless of the fact I'm a cheater it wasn't last year that I was accused of this so if I choose to give it away I should be able to right?
Now who wants my number 94?