HPR Fuel

[Munch]

Does anyone have detail on what fuel will be available at HPR this year?

[rybo]

Scott,

There are going to be three grades of Sunoco race fuels at HPR. I'm not sure which three.

Scott

[Jon]

How long before we have spec fuel? The LRRS does it and it manages to save money for the racers. Less money for fuel, more money race and ultimately more to the MRA. Discuss it amongst the board and I'd bet we could get it going before the first race. Thoughts?

[The GECCO]

How long before we have spec fuel? The LRRS does it and it manages to save money for the racers. Less money for fuel, more money race and ultimately more to the MRA. Discuss it amongst the board and I'd bet we could get it going before the first race. Thoughts?

This would require a rule change, so not really possible until next October.

The fuels available will be:
Sunoco 260 GT 100 octane unleaded street legal 3.3% oxygen $7.78/gallon
Sunoco 260 GTX 98 octane unleaded not street legal 0.0% oxygen $7.78/gallon
Sunoco Standard 110 octane leaded not street legal 0.0% oxygen $7.75/gallon

The fueling station will be 100% automated for credit cards, you cannot purchase fuel with check or cash.

[vort3xr6]

excuse my noobness, but what is the contigency like for sunoco vs vp?

[hcr25]

Dont think Sunoco pays. You might want to ask Bart at Faster about the VP contingency.

[Jon]

I know VP has paid the past but at least with CCS/ASRA there's not been anything annoucned just yet. In this day and age just don't hold your breath for it!

[Bartman]

I have not seen anything yet either Jon. Sunoco does not pay for sure, on a side note the octane on the fuels HPR is selling is a little high for most motorcycles to make full use of. That being said I have tested the GT100 and it does work OK but the FR sunoco which is lower octane works even better but is more money.
Bartman

[benfoxmra95]

I have not seen anything yet either Jon. Sunoco does not pay for sure, on a side note the octane on the fuels HPR is selling is a little high for most motorcycles to make full use of. That being said I have tested the GT100 and it does work OK but the FR sunoco which is lower octane works even better but is more money.
Bartman

Provided the sunoco 260 gtx they are selling at hpr is the the same sunoco 260 gtx that the AMA is using as a spec fuel:

I have to say that all the inline 4's in the superbike class run pretty damn good on that fuel. Tommy Hayden just won the Fontana race #2 using it.

I would not be afraid of this fuel at all in any bike so long as it's mapped, fuel and ignition for it. But you have to do this for any fuel really.

It's in the ignition timing map you'll be spending your time for mean best torque.

If you feel you need to use rocket fuel then you may as well use the vp mr12. I think it's like $25 per gallon.

I'd rather pay for extra track time than burn it in my engine.

[benfoxmra95]

Just to be clear, I did not say this fuel would make as much power as some of the racey stuff.

I am merely saying it's a very adequate in any bikes we hav in the mra.

With some accurate and methodical testing on the track with it against the hot stuff you may find your lap times the same. You may not. Depends on how well your bike is tuned and what manner you used to test it against the expensive stuff.

I'd reccomend getting your bike tuned for the hot stuff and the cheaper fuel wih two different maps. Then going to the track with 5 gallons of both running all day on the hot stuff then once you feel you can't go any faster, dump in the cheaper fuel change the map and see what your lap time are. Make sure you take accurate notes and you make no other changes and the temp and track conditions haven't changed. Or the test will not be accurate.

[random hero]

Somebody please help me out here..... I have a couple bikes, one being a gsxr1000 w/an Evan Steele motor in it. I bought it w/all the electronics stripped (no power commander, etc) and put a Bazzaz TC/EFI/QS unit on it this past fall, but have yet to run/ride the bike. The bike was run w/R-Tech fuel, it smells like jet fuel (stunk up my entire house just w/the jug sitting in the garage, wife didn't think it was too cool) Now I don't think I can get R-tech locally, and personally think buying uber expensive race gas would be a complete WASTE for my slow ass on a bike that already has 170+ hp..... My dilemma gets worse, I was planning on taking the bike to Faster before HPR weekend to get dyno-tuned, BUT would rather have it tuned to a less expensive fuel, and something that is readily available.

SO.... what do I do, is there a way to get some of this Sunoco stuff before the MRA school, anywhere in Denver have it, maybe Faster or other performance shops. Or, with a built up motor, am I better off going w/a high dollar VP fuel.

Also, on my 600 w/full system, and air filter what kind of HP gains would I see using the Sunoco stuff in it, and would I need to have that bike dyno tuned also for it (it also has Bazzaz unit on it)

[cromer611]

your a novice? i would save your money and run pump gas. use the money you save for trackdays and tires. seat time, seat time, seat time.

also if you let that fuel sit in your tank over the winter, your throttle bodies are probly gummed up.
cheers

[random hero]

Yes novice, but was told the motor would need something more than just pump gas in the gsxr 1000. The 600 loves pump gas And yes, the bike has sat all winter w/a tank of fuel.... Will get it cleaned up in the next couple days..... should be a lot of fun, NOT!

[benfoxmra95]

quick and dirty fuel and timing lecture:

what fuel can i use?

any you want...as long as the ignition map is tuned for it. pump gas, race gas, ethanol, whatever.

my bike is "built" high compression pistons, milled head, decked block...?

yes, whatever you want!


detonation can happen when the fuel molecules break apart and explode, and you will hear a marbles in the coffe can type sound. This happens under very high cylinder pressure. Race fuel has stronger bonds between the molecules and is less susceptible to breaking apart. (this is a really quick and dirty definition, so don't break my balls over it, I know mark bohns out there waiting to pounce he can get into the chemistry side of it)

when running high compression and lower grades of fuels you have to retard the ignition timing. how much it needs to be retarded will depend on how much cylinder pressure the type of fuel you are using will handle before it breaks apart and detonates. Cylinder pressure is directly related to what time the spark plug is fired before tdc. the more advance you have the higher the cylinder pressure.

So for example, how do i tune a built motor for pump gas?

simple: a spark hook test. WTF is that?

Lets assume we are tuning on the WOT 100% line in the ign map.

We use a load cell dyno to hold the motor in a steady state at a certain RPM and measure the torque output. so lets say we are working from 7000rpm-redline. and the map has 500 rpm breakpoints. so the map will go up 500 rpms for every cell.

So we program the dyno to hold the engine in the 7000 rpm cell for about 4 seconds to then increase to 7500 rpms and hold for another 4 seconds, and then on to 8000rpms then increase again...etc...etc...etc... up to redline this is called a "step test"

record the torque at every break point, and then go back into the ignition map and increase the ignition timing by 2 degrees in every cell, repeat the test, compare on a spreadsheet what the power is doing, and start adding or decreasing the ignition timing to find the best MBT torque.

If the power does not go up when adding ignition timing then you have found MBT torque for that RPM cell. I use 2 degree increments as 1 degree is not enough of a change. if you add timing and the power goes down then you have passed your MBT.

Building a ignition map is very tedious and takes skill and time as well as adjustment to the fuel map during the process to keep all things equal, and the use of an excel spreadsheet to keep things in order and it saves time. Try to do all this in your head and you'll get lost in the process. Also this has to be done in the step increments I mentioned above, a ramp acceleration style dyno run(where it just pulls through the RPMs like the bike is running down the road) will not suffice as there are transient issues and wall fuel wetting issues that come into play.

A very common mistake for tuners is to add some timing and see no gains and throw up their hands and say well that's it there's no more power to be had....a good tuner will look both directions by adding and subtracting timing when looking for MBT. as the factory settings in the ECM may already be too high for MBT for the combo of pistons and fuel and cam timing your trying to run.


So when someone says you have to run "x" fuel its untrue. I have tuned dozens of engines putting out incredibly high HP numbers per cylinder on 91 oct pump gas, and these are engines with superchargers and turbo chargers where cylinder pressure is very high, simply by tuning the ignition timing map. An example: a standard chevy 350 v8 making 350 hp naturally aspirated will run about 32-38 degrees of advance, put a supercharger on it and you are effectively raising the compression ratio significantly. That same motor will now run somewhere from 12 degrees to 18 degrees of advance so to keep it from detonating and breaking the pistons or melting them down.

So yeah if you take a stock bike and throw in a big bore kit, and mill the heads and do no ignition timing mapping, you certainly will have to run race fuel because the stock ignition map was optimized for a lower compression smaller displacement motor and that motor was tuned to run the max ignition timing for that setup and you've just run past the MBT torque potential of the motor with all your mods and are most likely going to have detonation problems, if you try to use a fuel that will not hold up to the pressure and break apart.

and unfortunately this isn't just for WOT, there's the rest of the table from 90% down to 10% throttle opening that needs adjusting, because when you roll through the throttle at the apex of a turn, you are traversing across the ignition map(and fuel) and the rest of those areas are more than likely gonna need some tuning as well for best torque.

also blanketing the map with and just adding 2 degrees to the whole thing is not the best idea either because certain area will tolerate more or less timing depending upon your cam timing. Also doing just a blanket on the wot line of the map of 2 degrees is a bad idea as well. because the entire chain of cells one leads to another, so lets say you add 2 degrees to the entire 100% line, well it may make better torque at 8000 rpms with 2 degrees, but at 7500 maybe that extra 2 degrees drops the power and since this is right before the 8000 rpm cell the engine never recovers from the drop in power and the full potential gain of adding the 2 degrees to 8000 rpms is never realized. One cell leads to another and if the sequence is interupted then the motor will have dips in the torque curve and loss of power at points. it all has to work together in sequence.

Don't get hyperfocused on this. Pistons these days will tolerate alot and sometimes it may be cheaper to just throw high dollar fuel in it than to pay a experienced tuner enough money to build a proper ignition timing map for lesser expensive fuel. To do it properly it should cost a little more than twice as much as what a normal fuel tuning session costs. But thats my opinion because of the amount of time it takes, someone out there may do it cheaper....

[marty]

fwiw, from my experience sunoco 110 jets like c12 on two strokes. i have been using c12 to race and sunoco 110 to practice, never had an issue with switching between the two

[random hero]

thats a lot of info!! Let me say this, I'm not looking for the bike to be any faster, I just want to make sure it's tuned safely. Last thing I want to do is damage the motor by running the map that comes w/the Bazzaz

Anyone know if there are generic maps available from Bazzaz?

[benfoxmra95]

fwiw, from my experience sunoco 110 jets like c12 on two strokes. i have been using c12 to race and sunoco 110 to practice, never had an issue with switching between the two

BTW, I have found out from a very reputable source that B-32, sold here in the springs at cheif petroleum, is very very similar to c-12. I think its $6 a gallon.

I was always very skeptical of it, but after seeing acutally dyno results back to back with the c-12 im convinced. Also I know someone who works there and the rumors of it being watered down or in an old tank are completely false. don't know if this is a cheaper alterantive or not, i honestly don't know what the going rate for race fuels are these days, since my last competative season I used pump gas... 8)

BTW marty, Im gonna get that tail section painted this weekend for you. sorry, haven't forgotten, ive just been bust and gone alot.

[benfoxmra95]

thats a lot of info!! Let me say this, I'm not looking for the bike to be any faster, I just want to make sure it's tuned safely. Last thing I want to do is damage the motor by running the map that comes w/the Bazzaz

Anyone know if there are generic maps available from Bazzaz?

sigh...just run the most expensive race fuel you can get...





Just kidding. seriously is this the right bike for you? if this is motor is built up, you really need to get it on a dyno and tuned properly if someone has kept the ecu and original mapping.

I know a guy with a funny accent that just started working at Fay myers who can help you get your bazzaz unit tuned. I would "not" try to use a generic map as I can assure you it will not be right for this altitude and a motor that has been modded.

Talk to aaron clark, he's on the forum here under clarkie, send him a pm or email: clarkie49@hotmail.com he'll dial you in right. or bart at faster. Or Marv rosecrans at RMK

[Bartman]

Bazzaz does not make maps like dynojet does and even the DJ maps are not all that good. The drawback of the Bazzaz is no ingtion adjustablity so with a built motor you may have to run something a little more stable.
How is it Ben that your posts are way longer than your conversations :lol: but seriously I didn't say the fuel was bad but when the AMA went to the spec fuel I had several people test it and found less HP then some pump fuels. The only benifit to a spec fuel or spec anything is a level playing field, rarely is it the best thing out there and while it can bring closer racing I don't personaly like the idea as I think racing should be the persuit of the best.
I would like to see a leaded fuel at HPR to go with the unleaded, I don't think there is a motorbuilder in the world that would rather run unleaded if he is allowed leaded, it has always been forced on them to run unleaded as we march to the GREEN side.

[Bartman]

Oh I forgot to mention that sunoco can be had from Hill Petroleum. For a built motor the best sunoco I have found is the MO2X.

[Desmodromico]

Bart, my basket case Triumph 675 is at your shop now, all this talk of fuel and tuning, way over my head....you can run diesel in it if you can get it to run right, riding it around the neighborhood the surging gave me nightmares of highsides...please help!

[Bartman]

No worrys I will get it running smooth, diesel will run for a spit second before it just plain stops. No harm to the motor but if you go the other way gas in a diesel motor very bad things happen real quick.
I had a guy pick up his bike many years ago and he went 2 blocks to the gas station and then made another block before it quit. Needless to say he called up very upset that his fresh tuned bike just quit. Got it back to the shop open the tank and it was full of diesel. Got it drained and cleaned but it prolly smoked for the next 1000 miles till it burned out all the diesel out of the pipe. So long story short DO NOT put diesel in a motorcycle.

[oldtimer]

If you feel you need to use rocket fuel then you may as well use the vp mr12. I think it's like $25 per gallon.

This fuel is not legal in Colorado I can't find it. :cry:

[Bartman]

Correct all VPs MR fuels have MBTE in them so are not legal in colorado. Now if you get caught with it the fine can be real stiff, how ever its likely your normal POPO will not know what they are looking at. Thats why VP made ethanol fuels because there are several states that have that law.

[The GECCO]

I would like to see a leaded fuel at HPR to go with the unleaded

Sunoco Standard 110 octane leaded not street legal 0.0% oxygen $7.75/gallon

Wake up, Bart! :lol: