The Highside

[gripped]

So I figured I would head out to IMI today to get in a couple laps and have a little fun. The day started out like any other, I got everything set up, put on the tire warmers ect. I head out for the first session and am taking it pretty easy just getting the feel. After a couple laps I step it up a bit and start having some fun, then on lap 8 I'm turning into my favorite left with some decent speed (that double apex one when your going clockwise) and just as my knee touches I have my ohhh shittt moment.

I completely lose the rear, next thing I know I'm looking down at the bike pulling my first heel-clicker superman, followed shortly by a belly-flop onto my windscreen (which explodes). I somehow keep it together and end up shaking/laughing/hyperventilating on the side of the track.

The damage is a broken windscreen, a huge chunk of my left knee slider is gone? and I feel like Anderson Silva hit me with a flying knee to the chest. I dont know if its from the impact or I pulled my chest holding on to the bars.

I'm starting to question my whole 50+ degrees and your good philosophy on track days. So my question is what is the minimum temp you guys need to see to head out for a track day?

Thanks Mark

[dragos13]

After making the 12 hour drive to Pahrump NV one year, we find ourselves with morning temps right around freezing. I think it was about 38 degrees when we hit the track.

Any temp above freezing can be ridden in. You just have to adapt to your situation. I wonder what caused your rear to spin around? Getting back on the gas? Too much lean angle? Condition of your tires? Tire pressure? Bad body position? Many factors come into play. Its just like racing in the rain. You can't go all out, but you can go pretty darn fast if you do everything perfect. The main issue is smooth hand controls and body movement. Easy off and on the throttle, easy on the brakes. Everything has to be smooth.

I think 50+ is plenty of temp as long as its sunny, dry and you take your time. I usually like to just shake down myself and the bike the first session, never getting to the "feeling good and pushing it" point until I come back into the pits, check over the bike and see what temps I have got in the tires. You can do that with a temp gauge or just use your hand to feel them. I know you had warmers on, most of that temp probably left your tires before you started putting any back in.

On that note, I really need to get on a damn track

[Jon]

Anyone up for a January race in AZ? I'm thinking about heading down just like 2007.

[froth]

It's a lot of fun on a motard bike, and I think a full race one would be fun, but you'd likely never hit beyond 3rd gear.

[Throttleroller277]

After making the 12 hour drive to Pahrump NV one year, we find ourselves with morning temps right around freezing. I think it was about 38 degrees when we hit the track.

Any temp above freezing can be ridden in. You just have to adapt to your situation. I wonder what caused your rear to spin around? Getting back on the gas? Too much lean angle? Condition of your tires? Tire pressure? Bad body position? Many factors come into play. Its just like racing in the rain. You can't go all out, but you can go pretty darn fast if you do everything perfect. The main issue is smooth hand controls and body movement. Easy off and on the throttle, easy on the brakes. Everything has to be smooth.

I think 50+ is plenty of temp as long as its sunny, dry and you take your time. I usually like to just shake down myself and the bike the first session, never getting to the "feeling good and pushing it" point until I come back into the pits, check over the bike and see what temps I have got in the tires. You can do that with a temp gauge or just use your hand to feel them. I know you had warmers on, most of that temp probably left your tires before you started putting any back in.

On that note, I really need to get on a damn track

Dido to all that, including being there at Pahrump....... in 06' at Miller for the last race of the season, the first practice sessions Saturday and Sunday were in the high 30's!! :shock:

Considering that you did 8 laps, I don't think that the ambient temp was the issue. 8)

[cromer611]

Anyone up for a January race in AZ? I'm thinking about heading down just like 2007.

i really wanna go, im racing to get my bike back together.

[sheispoison]

In 2008 at Pikes Peak when we went out for practice Sunday morning it was like 39 degrees. Then when the races started it started to mist and rain. Talk about scary! I guess you just gotta feel things out before you start pushing real hard. Then again that was my rookie season and I had no idea what I was doing anyway...
Then again, I still don't...
carl

[JWinter]

What tires were used? Softer compounds work better in colder conditions. So even if you used tire warmers on a hard or medium compound it may still not have enough temp to provide grip. I use Bridgies and they have a super soft compound that I use at the beginning and end of the season when the track surface temp is lower. But I ride a GP bike on slicks and not a production on DOTs. I truly don't know what is available for compounds in the DOTs being used. The tires are more than likely the problem, it's just finding what is exactly the problem or combination of problems?

Jeff

[Throttleroller277]

The tires are more than likely the problem, it's just finding what is exactly the problem or combination of problems?

Jeff

Not sure I 100% agree with that statement .... Not saying you are wrong either, Jeff..... or doubting Marks skill for that matter.

But as Casey stated, there are so many variables that can play into a crash......

You can highside on a 50 degree day on any tire, and you can highside on a 90 degree day on any tire. .... Doesn't necessarily mean it was the tires.

[dave.gallant]

...and, just to add to the tire thoughts:

On some specific brands of tire, you don't go softer as it gets colder. You go softer as it gets hotter. :shock:

(Yes, I am being dead serious.)

That said, ALL race tires today provide so much grip it often comes down to inproper setup (pressures, etc) or being a bit hamfisted on the throttle instead of opening it sooner but softer.

IMI is too small for anything over a motard anyways, so I wouldn't get too much in your head about this incident and get out on a real race track.

[JWinter]

I agree with Dave, in that IMI is a stop and go track for anything bigger than a tard. That alone could be the answer.

The most important part of this conversation is that nobody got hurt (other than some bumps and bruises)!!!!

Jeff

[gripped]

Thanks for all the input guys! So I had medium Michelin compound tires on and had them up to about 125 degrees when I took them off of the tire warmers.
I think the major problem was that there there was a pretty cold wind that day and try as I might I just could not get any heat into the tires. Its that double edge sword right, go hard to try and get some heat into the tires, but if you go hard you risk crashing. Regardless when I came in and felt them they were not up to temp.
I think I made a mistake by raising the tire pressure also. Is that correct? Do you want to raise or lower your tire pressure if its colder out?

[nwatkins176]

That is a question for Mark, but it seems if you lower your pressure for ambient tempature it would increase friction on the tire and increase temp. But I know all the tires are different.

[Throttleroller277]

Thanks for all the input guys! So I had medium Michelin compound tires on and had them up to about 125 degrees when I took them off of the tire warmers.
I think the major problem was that there there was a pretty cold wind that day and try as I might I just could not get any heat into the tires. Its that double edge sword right, go hard to try and get some heat into the tires, but if you go hard you risk crashing. Regardless when I came in and felt them they were not up to temp.
I think I made a mistake by raising the tire pressure also. Is that correct? Do you want to raise or lower your tire pressure if its colder out?

Boy this one opened up a big can of worms!!

125 degrees is no-where near optimal temp for any race compounds. And how was the temp measured? Some people just "shoot" the outside of the tire, some people have a probe that penetrates (I just wanted to say probe and penetrate in the same sentence) :shock: farther into the tire. Some people measure the temp of the rim itself..... Just because the outside of the tire is warm, doesn't mean the inside of it is.....something to keep in mind.

You mentioned your tires having no temp when you came in...... Tires cool down very quickly, on a hot day I have seen them cool as much as 30 degrees in the time it took to get from pit lane to my trailer.... so, if you had crashed, did a cool down lap, idled into the pits, etc..... you would have lost a lot of temp, leaving you with inaccurate data.....

As for the proper pressure..... all manufactures are different.....I'll leave that to Mark......

But then again............. as Casey and I stated before.... Was it the tires in the first place that caused the crash? 8)

[Throttleroller277]

I agree with Dave, in that IMI is a stop and go track for anything bigger than a tard. That alone could be the answer.

The most important part of this conversation is that nobody got hurt (other than some bumps and bruises)!!!!

Jeff

I second both of those statements! 8)

[gripped]

The temp was taken via a thermometer which I stuck in between the tire and warmer (not the most accurate). My warmers which are not the best were having a hard getting up to temp so I figured I would take it easy the first couple of laps.
As far as the tires not being up to temp im sorry I should have clarified, I replaced the windscreen and went back out for 4-5 sessions. Needless to say my confidence was shaken so I was taking it very easy, but I never had them up to temp at the end of any session.
Which makes me wonder another question (sorry bout all the questions) whats the best way to get heat in tires? I had thought it would be fast long turns but I could be completely wrong.
The high side itself was same speed, amount of gas, location, lean angle as I have done many times before, which is why it really freaked me out,but must say the fastest I went through that turn on that day.

Again I really appreciate all the advice

[gripped]

Oh and I just recieved my HPR punch card (thanks Glenn) so lets get the 10+ people we need and tear it up at HPR for the next track day so I don't even have to think about IMI anymore

[oldtimer]

Which makes me wonder another question (sorry bout all the questions) whats the best way to get heat in tires? I had thought it would be fast long turns but I could be completely wrong.

My recommendation on the fastest way to get tires hot--hard hard acceleration away from the corner (when straight up and down), hard hard on the brakes into the corner (when straight up and down). Not grabbing a handful when leaned over or grabbing breaks while trailbreaking at lean, this is straight up and down gas and breaks. Do it for a full lap and you can get a lot of heat into the tires.

I learned to do this from my old Michelin tire vendor, Mark E Mark!, when we were racing before the invention of tire warmers. That's when the warm up lap was really a warm up lap and you had to get tires hot in one lap. Savage times.

It would be great if you could see at least 190 degrees with a probe in the Michelins...

[Jon]

Damn Wyeth,
You must be pretty old to remember the times before the invention of the tire warmer, They've been around for about 30 years, How long HAVE you been racing?

[gripped]

That is great to know, Thanks oldtimer

[Moto-Mania]

Since we're on the topic of tire temps and measurement - anybody have info on those handy dandy infrared temp sensors? The kind where you just point it at the tire and it gives a readout. I'd like to buy one.

[marty]

Since we're on the topic of tire temps and measurement - anybody have info on those handy dandy infrared temp sensors? The kind where you just point it at the tire and it gives a readout. I'd like to buy one.

just go by radio shak. they have some inexpensive ones that will get you started. i can't recall who had one, but there are also some models that you can read the temp of your tire by poking into the rubber also

[rohorn]

I'm a little surprised someone doesn't sell an onboard tire temp sensing unit. How hard could it be to make one?

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/pro...oducts_id=9570

No, I have no connection (heh) with the above company in Boulder.

[Scored51]

Because the infrared temp gauge will only detect surface temperature. A digital stick thermometer can be used to dig into the carcass and get a better reading of the tire temp. You can flash heat a tire by spinning it up, and conversely it can lose it's surface heat by riding through the paddock.

[Old Racer]

I agree with Chris about surface vs deeper tire temps. Glenn has my old Chek-It Electronics Tire Pyrometer from my short track days. For more modern instruments, see http://www.temperaturehumidityinstru...pyrometer.html .

Harbor Freight Tools sells a IR CEN-TECH surface reader for only a few dollars, but I'm old school and like the needle probe type better. The further away in time or distance you are from hard on it, when you measure, the greater potential error.