Steering dampers

[mbohn]

5.2 Motorcycle Technical Requirements, Paragraph Z.

As it reads now:

Steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

Proposed revision:

An adjustable steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

===============
The purpose of this revision is to discourage new racers from trying to get by with the damper that came on their street bike. These are usually non-adjustable and while they may be suitable for street use, they are practically useless for racing.

[dragos13]

5.2 Motorcycle Technical Requirements, Paragraph Z.

As it reads now:

Steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

Proposed revision:

An adjustable steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

===============
The purpose of this revision is to discourage new racers from trying to get by with the damper that came on their street bike. These are usually non-adjustable and while they may be suitable for street use, they are practically useless for racing.

While I do agree that the OEM dampers are practically useless, have we seen a need for such a rule change or would we just be making ir more expensive for a new rider to start racing? Have there been issues caused by using stock dampers? Would a new rider even notice the difference between stock and aftermarket?

[hcr25]

Who checks the "adjustable steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition."

This does not get checked in tech currently and cant be checked while on the tech ramp.

[mbohn]

5.2 Motorcycle Technical Requirements, Paragraph Z.

As it reads now:

Steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

Proposed revision:

An adjustable steering damper is required and must be in good operating condition.

===============
The purpose of this revision is to discourage new racers from trying to get by with the damper that came on their street bike. These are usually non-adjustable and while they may be suitable for street use, they are practically useless for racing.

While I do agree that the OEM dampers are practically useless, have we seen a need for such a rule change or would we just be making ir more expensive for a new rider to start racing? Have there been issues caused by using stock dampers? Would a new rider even notice the difference between stock and aftermarket?

Casey:
Yes, there were at least 2 novice riders at Hastings that found out the hard way how ineffective the OEM dampers are. That's what I'm addressing. As far as cost, yes for the new rider who has chosen to convert a street biker into a race bike, which is really very few people, the cost will go up. A new one is about $450 but I suppose there are used ones available. But the cost of crashing because of an ineffective damper is many times that even if there are no personal injuries in which case....
And yes, a newbie will notice the difference in bike handling even under normal riding conditions. And for the better.

Mike:

While neither the unadjustable or adjustable damper can be really tested on Ray's inspection ramp, it sure is easy to see if a guy is trying to get by with a non-adjustable damper.

[T Baggins]

given that the current sportbikes are "so good" from the factory now anyway - we've even talked about doing away with the rule altogether...

thoughts on that?

[toptier]

I found that my stock damper was not adequate enough especially at Hasting. There were times I had very bad tank slappers which almost caused me to crash.

[dragos13]

Yes a rider CAN benefit from aftermarket steering dampers but why make it a requirement? Stock front suspension with absolutely no rebound damping can also cause crashes but where do we draw the line? Is this an idea of making racing safer? Should we say that no one can use a clip-type master link on their chain because they are known to fail? I'm asking only to better understand the theory that this should be a required upgrade. Could the riders that crashed put less input into the bars and avoided the crash altogether, regardless of steering damper? Can't I just adjust my Ohlins damper all the way soft and have it about as effective or less then a stock?

[polar x]

I would almost put money on the cause as being more rider induced than damper induced. With that said, a properly set up bike should be pretty stable and need only minor damping which a stock unit would provide.

Thats not to say a good unit does not help and for sure wont hurt ya. But is the problem that big that you need to mandate the cost? Hastings has always been a problem with pilot induced ocilations. Turning up a dampner could solve it OR it could mask a bigger problem of set up.


These are my thoughts on it...and like everything I come up with prob way off base and outside the norm.

[T Baggins]

This was a "reactionary rule" put in place after we had a fatality that (arguably) could have been avoided had the bike that crashed had a steering damper on it.

[hcr25]

Was that in 2000?

[T Baggins]

Was that in 2000?

No, this goes back to when Willie Sharp was killed at Second Creek in the 90's. The bike in front of him got into a tank-slapper going thru the esses (clockwise direction). That rider went down, and Willie hit the downed bike.

The argument was that "if" the first bike had a steering damper, it wouldn't have crashed... and then the rest wouldn't have happened.

[mbohn]

..Can't I just adjust my Ohlins damper all the way soft and have it about as effective or less then a stock?

That is an interesting thing. When I replaced my OEM Showa damper with an adjustable Ohlins damper I compared the two on the bench. I had to turn the Ohlins to zero clicks to get it to be as ineffective as the OEM unit. The Ohlins instructions tell you to set the clicker to halfway and adjust from there but never go below 5 clicks. At half way on the clicker the Ohlins has way more damping.

As far as the oscillation problem being rider fault, we are talking about novices here. I say if an expert wants to toss their steering damper, maybe thats ok. But not for novices.

[sheispoison]

I've never run anything but the stock damper on my bike. Never had an issue, even at Hastings.
carl

[cosp600rr]

I have a little experiance in this problem. An aftermarket steering damper won't always save your butt in a tankslapper situation and I don't believe it is only rider induced.

Hastings last year. Did friday saturday and sunday morning practice on one tire. Bike was perfect and very stable. I have a new gpr steering damper on it set on the stiffer side of middle but not to stiff to make handling hard.

After sunday morning practice I got a new tire of the same brand but a different model. Went out on the warm up lap and bike felt very weird. The tires where the same size and everything the new tire was just older technology. Started the race and after one lap new something was wrong as the bike was headshaking and moving around alot. Coming out of turn 2 I reached up and turned the damper up 4 clicks. It made a little differance but not enough so I was planing on taking it up a notch or 2 coming out of turn 2 again.

I never made it that far. I was going down the front straight in a full tuck and went into a full lock to lock tankslapper after the bridge. It through me off at what ever speed you are going in 4th gear wide open. That was the longest slide in the world as I had to go all the way to turn one before sliding off the track and then my bike ran over me. Thankfully I wasn't hurt and none of the 6 guys behind me hit me.

Going down the front straight I find it hard to believe that it was any kind of rider input that caused it. The bike had been totally fine the several practices before that.

It was a bike setup issue in it not being set up for the tire I had put on. I don't believe that the steering damper could have saved the crash even if it had been turned up all the way.

I do believe that steering dampers are good to have and can save many crashes but they are not the end all. The bike still has to be set up right.

[mbohn]

I have a little experiance in this problem. An aftermarket steering damper won't always save your butt in a tankslapper situation and I don't believe it is only rider induced.

Hastings last year. Did friday saturday and sunday morning practice on one tire. Bike was perfect and very stable. I have a new gpr steering damper on it set on the stiffer side of middle but not to stiff to make handling hard.

After sunday morning practice I got a new tire of the same brand but a different model. Went out on the warm up lap and bike felt very weird. The tires where the same size and everything the new tire was just older technology. Started the race and after one lap new something was wrong as the bike was headshaking and moving around alot. Coming out of turn 2 I reached up and turned the damper up 4 clicks. It made a little differance but not enough so I was planing on taking it up a notch or 2 coming out of turn 2 again.

I never made it that far. I was going down the front straight in a full tuck and went into a full lock to lock tankslapper after the bridge. It through me off at what ever speed you are going in 4th gear wide open. That was the longest slide in the world as I had to go all the way to turn one before sliding off the track and then my bike ran over me. Thankfully I wasn't hurt and none of the 6 guys behind me hit me.

Going down the front straight I find it hard to believe that it was any kind of rider input that caused it. The bike had been totally fine the several practices before that.

It was a bike setup issue in it not being set up for the tire I had put on. I don't believe that the steering damper could have saved the crash even if it had been turned up all the way.

I do believe that steering dampers are good to have and can save many crashes but they are not the end all. The bike still has to be set up right.

Mat:
That's almost my story almost exactly word for word! Pretty weird.

[benfoxmra95]

given that the current sportbikes are "so good" from the factory now anyway - we've even talked about doing away with the rule altogether...

thoughts on that?

not even a chance. if we do away with the rule, then it opens the door for older bikes that never came with dampners to be raced with out them.

[benfoxmra95]

Bikes that go into tankslappers are on the "edge" of too aggressive geometry.

A bike can be setup to be perfectly stable to the point you can turn down a dampner to zero.

Racing surfaces cannot be adjusted.

At hastings there happens to be a section of just the right rythum of bumps to upset a motorcycle. This can be the case at any track after deterioration of the pavement.

Steering dampners are 100% necessary, is a $500 one necsessary? Yes if your not able to figure out the fact that you need to avoid certain sections of the track.

Mike applegate was a very fast rider at hastings and he was using a stock steering dampner. I think his choice of routes around the track were a little better than average.

This is the case at any track, if there's a section of pavement that upsets the bike, go around it.

Im not for imposing this rule. I think a little more education on the subject of chassis geometry and line choice is a better action to take, maybe this should be addressed in the new riders school?.

Im not for removing the dampner rule either. Bikes wouldn't come from the factory with some kind of dampening on it if it weren't necessary.

[auzzy]

I have a stock stabilizer, am a rookie, and did not crash all year. If the issue is equipment saving us from our own mistakes, then perhaps we need to look into more schooling, track time with Schellinger?

[hcr25]

It is not always our mistakes that cause crashes. In the case of the hastings crashes the track helped cause them on the front straight for sure. The only other track I have been to like that was Mid America in Iowa. That track has bumps down the start finish straight also. They also didnt do anything about the track surface and last I heard no clubs race there anymore.
It is my understanding we are not going to Hastings because of the low rider turnout and the cost of the track. The bumps alone there make me not want to go back. Either way the Hastings bumps are not a factor anymore.
Mike