Further Discussion - Restructured Novice Classes

[dirkterrell]

Let's figure out if this is worth doing:

Eliminate Sportsman, Nov-U and Nov-O and replace them with Nov-A, Nov-B and Nov-C. Since lap times in the novice ranks tend to be determined by rider skill much more so than bike displacement, the idea is to restructure the novice classes to better reflect that situation.

1) Nov-A and Nov-B would have fastest lap limits like Sportsman currently does so that the slowest riders would be in Nov-A, faster ones in Nov-B and the fastest in Nov-C. Slower riders could ride up if they wanted to. The lap time limits would be decided by MRA officials.

2) Superbike rules with no displacement limits. Removing the displacement limit means that riders of larger displacement bikes now have more racing options.

The fastest riders now have only one novice class to race in but if Scott's proposal is accepted, these riders would ride in the novice 2nd waves of the SS/SB races. This proposal thus has the advantage of encouraging the fastest novice riders to move up to expert.

There has already been some discussion of this in Scott's "novice waves in SS/SB" thread (starting on this page) if you want to read that first.

Dirk

[Mforza]

I see one thing wrong about this idea. If as a novice I start the year in NovA class and then I get faster I will have to go to NovB, which takes the chance from me to fight for the title or good standings in that class, then the same in NovB to NovC.
By the time I end up in NovC I can not win the title in any of those classes
So if I'm the leader or in good standings in one class I would like to stay in that class untill the end of the season!
If I go to next one I'll be at the end with no chance to finish good in final standings.
Just my 2c

[dirkterrell]

I see your point but maybe the purpose of the novice classes should be to make people work towards expert status rather than stroking their ego with a championship at the slowest two levels? Note that there would be a championship for Nov-C since no one would get bumped out of it.

No doubt this requires a different mindset but if the goals are to (a) encourage the faster novices to move towards expert status and (b) give slower novices more opportunities to ride regardless of bike size, then this proposal does that. I think both of these goals are desirable.

Dirk

[Mforza]

But they do working towards their expert status

From Sportsman - cut off time
NovU and NovO - top 10

Do you think that let's say Erik Cromer when leading NovU for most of the season will be happy that he have to move to another class and can not finish good in NovU?

What I'm saying is not to force racers to move up in the midle of the season. Then it might work

[dirkterrell]

The fastest novices will be in Nov-C all year (unless they petition to move up to expert) and thus will compete for a championship. With Scott's proposal, they would also compete in, for example, MW SS and compete for a novice title there (and HW SS and Open SS if they like). There are more opportunities for the fastest guys, not fewer.

Dirk

[dirkterrell]

What I'm saying is not to force racers to move up in the midle of the season. Then it might work

Oh, and if you don't force the fastest guys to move up, this entire scheme will collapse because the fastest guys will start in Nov-A and never move up.

Dirk

[Mforza]

So basicly as I understand this is that

I run lets say 3 races in Nov A then I get faster so I will have to go to Nov B and run 3 races there and then I maybe get faster again and will have to move up to Nov C for the rest of the season.

So my whole season of racing is for nothing as I could not finish good in final standing in any of those classes?

Then what is the purpose of the season championship?

[dirkterrell]

So basicly as I understand this is that

I run lets say 3 races in Nov A then I get faster so I will have to go to Nov B and run 3 races there and then I maybe get faster again and will have to move up to Nov C for the rest of the season.

Remember, if you're eligible to run Nov-A, you can also run Nov-B and Nov-C. You can run Nov-C the whole season and go for the championship if that is your motivation.

Dirk

[Moto-Mania]

IMHO - None of these proposals strikes me as an improvement over what we currently have.

But I do like the following concepts (I forget who put them out here first):

1. Published maximum cutoff time for every class (as appropriate) so that everybody has the opportunity to move up and enter more races, regardless of number plate color - if they've got the speed, that is. The reality is, you can do this now if you first obtain the approval of the New Rider Director. But it would still be nice to know what the threshold is to enter MWSS, etc. Also, perhaps more importantly, fast novices who are contending for novice championships could race expert classes without surrendering their novice status.

2. Retain class championships for NovO and NovU. Having a sanctioned, tangible goal to strive for does not constitute "stroking novice ego" as someone suggested.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!

[CO750]

So basicly as I understand this is that

I run lets say 3 races in Nov A then I get faster so I will have to go to Nov B and run 3 races there and then I maybe get faster again and will have to move up to Nov C for the rest of the season.

Remember, if you're eligible to run Nov-A, you can also run Nov-B and Nov-C. You can run Nov-C the whole season and go for the championship if that is your motivation.

Dirk

If you are fast enough to race for a points title then why would you be racing in the slowest class to start the year? That class is proposed to be basically on par speed wise with our current sportsman class.

Even if you did improve drastically through out the year there would probably be someone who did well start to finish. Look to this years novice classes as an example of what I mean.

[dirkterrell]

If you are fast enough to race for a points title then why would you be racing in the slowest class to start the year?

You wouldn't. You'd be in Nov-C and MWSS (or whatever) where you belong.

Dirk

[rybo]

Dirk,

I love this idea, but struggle with the logistics. Currently we have one class that is populated by about 15 people a season to manage cut off times for.

With a proposal like this one you would have to manange cut off times for better than 50 people at 3 different levels.

I think we've identified that it's a good idea and worth exploring further. The WHY is well explained, now it's time for the HOW.

I also think it would be worth getting some input from the people who would be setting up grids and managing the cut-off times.

Scott

[dirkterrell]

I think we've identified that it's a good idea and worth exploring further. The WHY is well explained, now it's time for the HOW.

It may be necessary to redesign the database and gridding code. As I said in the thread about novice hours, I am happy to help do that. With a good database and access tools, it shouldn't be much trouble to figure out who's eligible for each class.

Dirk

[CO750]

If you are fast enough to race for a points title then why would you be racing in the slowest class to start the year?

You wouldn't. You'd be in Nov-C and MWSS (or whatever) where you belong.

Dirk

I was just affirming your previous reply, not arguing against it.

[rybo]

How about a smaller intermediate step that may involve less restructuring of the database?

This idea is stolen from the USBA and the MOM series where they have 2 levels of novice:

USBA Construct
1) Provisional Novice
is permitted to run Novice and Sportsman classes only until they complete 6 race starts without crashing.

2) Novice
Is permitted to run Amateur and Endurance classes in addition to the Novice and sportsman classes.

Application to the MRA (including an assumption that the supersport class proposal will be accepted)

1) Provisional Novice
Would be permitted to run Novice, sportsman, and Endurance classes. Until they complete 10 race starts without crashing. They must ALSO time out of Sportsman to advance.

2) Novice
Would be allowed to race Amateur and Supersport classes in addition to the above mentioned classes (minus sportsman).

Thoughts?

s

[gsnyder828]

Interesting idea - I like it.

I assume that you mean 10 consecutive race starts w/o crashing? Meaning someone who's started 15 races and crashed out of 5 would not be eligible to advace out of provisional (unless they managed to stay upright the last 10 in a row after crashing out of their first 5)?

How does MOM visually identify provisionals vs. non-provisional novices (if at all)?

[dirkterrell]

Keeping track of who has crashed seems more difficult than lap times to me. I'll think about this some more but it doesn't address some of the issues that I was trying to deal with:

1) Eliminating the penalty (in terms of race eligibility) for racing something bigger than a 600.

2) Creating a class for those intermediate between sportsman and the fastest novices. This is primarily to encourage those "tweeners" to stick around rather than giving up because there is such a huge skill jump to being in the novice top 10.

3) Encourage the faster novices to move towards expert status more quickly.

Dirk

[mbohn]

Keeping track of who has crashed seems more difficult than lap times to me...

Dirk

Isn't that just finishing the race (DNF/DNS I get them confused)?

[dirkterrell]

Keeping track of who has crashed seems more difficult than lap times to me...

Dirk

Isn't that just finishing the race (DNF/DNS I get them confused)?

There are various reasons why someone might not finish a race that have nothing to do with crashing (e.g. mechanical, injury)

Dirk

[mbohn]

Keeping track of who has crashed seems more difficult than lap times to me...

Dirk

Isn't that just finishing the race (DNF/DNS I get them confused)?

There are various reasons why someone might not finish a race that have nothing to do with crashing (e.g. mechanical, injury)

Dirk

Likewise, there are various reasons for crashing some of which shouldn't preclude a novice from qualifying as an expert. (Experts crash too.)

[CO750]

I think if you force someone to have to time out of classes to be able to race more you are going to encourage them to ride outside their ability, potentially causing crashes and again eliminating them from advancing. And I don't agree with saying that crashing makes you unable to ride in other classes either. MotoGP guys crash quite a bit and no one is questioning their riding ability for it.

With this you are also going in the opposite direction of getting people involved in more races and classes. We don't want to be limiting them. I know that I want to race in more classes, not less.

[dirkterrell]

With this you are also going in the opposite direction of getting people involved in more races and classes. We don't want to be limiting them. I know that I want to race in more classes, not less.

Remember that I came up with this idea after seeing Scott's proposal to add novice classes to MWSS, HWSS, etc, so my proposal should be seen as an extension of his idea. His proposal gives the faster novices a chance to run more races. My proposal gives the slower novices a chance to do so.

Take my own case of a slow novice on a 750:

Current possibilities in the novice class: Sportsman and Nov-O.

Proposed possibilities: Nov-A, Nov-B and Nov-C.

In the case of a fast novice on a 600:

Currently: Nov-U and Nov-O

Proposed: Nov-C, MWSS, HWSS, OSS

Fast novice on a 1000

Currently: Nov-O

Proposed: Nov-C and OSS

That's more racing, not less, at zero impact on the schedule (no new races added).

Dirk

[rybo]

With this you are also going in the opposite direction of getting people involved in more races and classes. We don't want to be limiting them. I know that I want to race in more classes, not less.

Remember that I came up with this idea after seeing Scott's proposal to add novice classes to MWSS, HWSS, etc, so my proposal should be seen as an extension of his idea. His proposal gives the faster novices a chance to run more races. My proposal gives the slower novices a chance to do so.

Take my own case of a slow novice on a 750:

Current possibilities in the novice class: Sportsman and Nov-O.

Proposed possibilities: Nov-A, Nov-B and Nov-C.

In the case of a fast novice on a 600:

Currently: Nov-U and Nov-O

Proposed: Nov-C, MWSS, HWSS, OSS

Fast novice on a 1000

Currently: Nov-O

Proposed: Nov-C and OSS

That's more racing, not less, at zero impact on the schedule (no new races added).

Dirk

Dirk,

Don't forget

MWSB
HWSB and
OSB

[rybo]

How about a smaller intermediate step that may involve less restructuring of the database?

This idea is stolen from the USBA and the MOM series where they have 2 levels of novice:

USBA Construct
1) Provisional Novice
is permitted to run Novice and Sportsman classes only until they complete 6 race starts without crashing.

2) Novice
Is permitted to run Amateur and Endurance classes in addition to the Novice and sportsman classes.

Application to the MRA (including an assumption that the supersport class proposal will be accepted)

1) Provisional Novice
Would be permitted to run Novice, sportsman, and Endurance classes. Until they complete 10 race starts without crashing. They must ALSO time out of Sportsman to advance.

2) Novice
Would be allowed to race Amateur and Supersport classes in addition to the above mentioned classes (minus sportsman).

Thoughts?

s

Let me change it up a little then, instead of completing 10 race STARTS, let's say complete 10 races. We can eliminate the "without crashing" as crashing would prevent the rider from completing races.

Re word to read:

1) Provisional Novice
Would be permitted to run Novice, sportsman, and Endurance classes. Until they complete 10 races. They must ALSO time out of Sportsman to advance.

This eliminates the need to track who crashed and who didn't, but it's easy to figure out who finished and who didn't. Just look at the results. You either went race distance or you didn't.

I've just added another rule change proposal to the main thread saying that in order to score points in a race you must complete it. That would assist in the enforcement of this rule as well.

Scott

[cakake]

The problem I see with this rule is that it encourages new riders to buy a 1000cc bike because of the impression that it'll be faster around the race track, and therefore an easier way to move up the ranks.

That, and it really penalizes riders on smaller bikes, like an SV or 125. Scott's actually a great example, I remember watching him ride the wheels off his FZR400 at Pueblo, only to be eaten alive down the front straight. He was riding *much* better than half the novice grid, but since he was on a low horsepower bike, his lap times were on the high side. In these classes, he'd never advance.

I'm not a fan of lap time cut offs, because with the different power bikes, it's not a great measure of rider skill. At least now, the rider of a small bike has the option of NOT racing with 1000cc bikes. Your proposal forces all novice riders into the same class regardless of bike (I think).


Eric