Further discussion - Production Class Racing

[rybo]

Propose 2 new categories:

Middleweight Production
Open Production

The intent of this class is to reduce the ongoing costs of racing and bring close competition. As such only minimal modifications may be made to the motorcycle with the intention of making it track worthy. In the production class the stock ECU, Airbox, Air Filter and Exhaust system must remain in place.

I think this might limit your entries a bit. I don't know of any bike with the stock exhaust and air filter still on it. Even from potential street riders we are hoping to entice to race, most have changed these items already.

Well, the point of the rule is pretty simple. With a fairly restrictive intake and exhaust system you can do just about anything you want to the motor in between and NOT see a big bump in HP. The super techie mechanics amongst us could probably find a way to cheat, but the reality is that with a stock airbox and a stock exhaust cheating gets REALLY expensive.

I'm looking at this as a way to decrease the ongoing costs of racing. Stock motors are super reliable and not prone to blowing up. Being competitive in a class like this is a matter of honing rider skill as the bikes will be, for the most part, pretty equal. So you need a stock exhaust to put back on your bike? Look on ebay. There are a bunch of them out there for most models for under $100.

[bluedevil]

Cheaters will cheat. Its gonna happen. None the less Ive been a fan of production class racing for a while now. I know the idea has gotten shot down in several past years, but I think with times a changin the way they are, its a valuable exploration.

If this was to really be a success and not just a big cluster F of protests and cheating, it would need to be closely monitored in terms of tech and inspection. Guys and gals who will run this class are going to be folks who like to budget race and or may be on the brink or leaving racing or maybe just beginning, and if they see cheating happening and little to no penalty for doing so.. they are gone. Bet on it.

Id suggest tear downs more often, deeper in the class, stiffer penalties for items found as "illegal parts or mods". The class rules would need to be more of a list of things you are allowed to change, than things you cant. If it is not on the list of allowed to change items, its illegal in the class. (sounds simple anyway :wink: )

[dragos13]

Well, the point of the rule is pretty simple. With a fairly restrictive intake and exhaust system you can do just about anything you want to the motor in between and NOT see a big bump in HP. The super techie mechanics amongst us could probably find a way to cheat, but the reality is that with a stock airbox and a stock exhaust cheating gets REALLY expensive.

I'm looking at this as a way to decrease the ongoing costs of racing. Stock motors are super reliable and not prone to blowing up. Being competitive in a class like this is a matter of honing rider skill as the bikes will be, for the most part, pretty equal. So you need a stock exhaust to put back on your bike? Look on ebay. There are a bunch of them out there for most models for under $100.

Scott, I highly support the creation of newer classes as ways to bring in new riders. I think we could promote alot of this at the trackdays, as well as online and forums. People who have street bikes, however, usually have some basic mods. If we run a "superstreet" type class I would like to see less restrictions on who can run. If we say stock exhaust, we eliminate almost all street riders who would probably be interested. The trackday guys are all about upgrades and we need to keep that in mind.

If the idea behind this is to get street riders a taste of racing, then lets open up the rules for whatever mods they want. In all honesty, at that level of riding an intake and exhaust wont make any difference. On the other hand, if this is for a more affordable way of racing (which i thought was the intent of SS classes) then lets maybe tighten up the SS rules. I ran pretty competetive this year on a stock 06 R6. I didn't even have a power commander but of course I had an exhaust. SS racing is pretty affordable already if you ask me. I always ran pump gas and only one set of tires per weekend. Will this production class be more affordable for some reason? Or just tighter restrictions and probably ALOT of protests? I only ask this after the SS madness of last year.

Also, who has a completely stock bike that is track prepped? Are there alot of people out there? Or maybe this will be a nice idea for people wanting to join and not spend alot of money to get started?

[toptier]

Also, who has a completely stock bike that is track prepped? Are there alot of people out there? Or maybe this will be a nice idea for people wanting to join and not spend alot of money to get started?

I have been riding a completely stock bike the entire year.

I think a class like this would be a good thing for people try to keep cost down. I think most people that start racing and track riding think that they need to start modding because they won't be fast enough. The majority of track and street riders don't usually have a full exhaust system, usually just a slipon and maybe an air filter. So maybe we could allow a different exhaust and air filter but no ECU modifications (ie. power commander). I know if there were a class like this I would race in it.

[dragos13]

I have been riding a completely stock bike the entire year.

I think a class like this would be a good thing for people try to keep cost down. I think most people that start racing and track riding think that they need to start modding because they won't be fast enough. The majority of track and street riders don't usually have a full exhaust system, usually just a slipon and maybe an air filter. So maybe we could allow a different exhaust and air filter but no ECU modifications (ie. power commander). I know if there were a class like this I would race in it.

I ran MWSS all year with no power commander and finished pretty well. How would this be cheaper then running your Nov and Am classes? Would you prefer it because you would feel more competitive? More equal to your other riders? Isn't running down guys on highly modded, more powerful bikes about the most enjoyable thing to do on the track?

I'm all for making classes more equal in power and thats exactly why I run supersport. Of course, with our current rules you can still dump TONS of cash for a full supersport build so maybe adding a superstock class with even tighter regulations would appeal to more racers? It is nice to be within 10-20hp difference then your competition, I do agree with that for sure.

Also, look at Cromer. He is more then supersport legal with barely any mods. Didn't slow him down much nor make racing any more expensive.

[dirkterrell]

Also, who has a completely stock bike that is track prepped?

I do.

Dirk

[dragos13]

Also, who has a completely stock bike that is track prepped?

I do.

Dirk

OK and your reasoning behind a class like this?

I'm not against the idea at all, just really trying to stir shit up so the right questions are asked and the right answers are given. Making sure we cover all the bases so please, NO ONE TAKE MY POSTS PERSONAL That goes for this thread and every other rule change thread that I post in.

[Scored51]

...Guys and gals who will run this class are going to be folks who like to budget race and or may be on the brink or leaving racing ...

Id suggest tear downs more often, deeper in the class...

I like the idea because it's a kick the tires and light the fires class, but how would you propose to balance your theories with your suggestion?

My point here is that a tear downs of any nature costs time, money, and parts to the riders being torn down. If I am racing on a budget, my expenses have just increased because I need to rebuild. If I'm on the brink of leaving, the additional work I now need to do to get my perfectly good running bike back together might send me over the edge.

[cromer611]

I ran stock except a rear shock and a custome silencer. was 500bones and alot of time.

[dirkterrell]

Also, who has a completely stock bike that is track prepped?

I do.

Dirk

OK and your reasoning behind a class like this?

Not sure I understand the question. In general I like the idea of making it easier to pull new people into racing.

Dirk

[bluedevil]

If the idea behind this is to get street riders a taste of racing, then lets open up the rules for whatever mods they want.

We have 4 classes already then and no need to ad any more. Nov U, Nov O, AM U and AM O.. oh and sportsman also qualifies. :wink:

[hcr25]

If the idea behind this is to get street riders a taste of racing, then lets open up the rules for whatever mods they want.

We have 4 classes already then and no need to ad any more. Nov U, Nov O, AM U and AM O.. oh and sportsman also qualifies. :wink:

You forgot endurance! and its only $50.00

[gsnyder828]

I'm looking at this as a way to decrease the ongoing costs of racing

I'll admit I'm a bit ambivilent about this class. On the surface it seems like a good idea, but I don't think it addresses the issue of cost.

A used, prepped supersport bike isn't that expensive in the scheme of things. A decent bike that can put someone with talent at the front of mid-pack(or better) can be had for $5k-$8k. How does a production class reduce this cost?

On recurring expenses, the 2 biggest line items in my budget (excluding beer, of course 8) ) are tires and entries.

I don't see this class reducing the entries line item - unless we're going to have other racers subsidize the entries for this class (something I would not support).

I also don't see that this class addresses the cost of tires. Perhaps adding a spec-tire to the class would help. I would suggest a trackday (not race) specific tire that is cheaper than race tires and expected to last a few weekends.

Racing is expensive. The unpleasant reality is some (most, actually) people cannot afford it.

I would very much support classes focused on true reduction in cost to allow for cheap racing (Ninja 250 spec, whatever), but I suspect a) it would not be popular and b) most trackday riders still could not afford it in the long term.

As I see it described, the Production Class does not materially reduce costs.

[dragos13]

Not sure I understand the question. In general I like the idea of making it easier to pull new people into racing.

Dirk

I definitely agree with needing to make it easier to pull in new racers. I'm just asking how you reason this as a solution. Do you think alot of non-racers stay out because they are worried the novices have superbike built motors? I mean, again I can use Cromer as an example. He had a rear shock and a modified stock exhaust. We all know how well he did. Then you have novices not even inside top 10 who are using traction control and every other goodie known to man. So, how will this class increase the ability for people to race? I'm all for more racing options, just got to make sure they are the right and most beneficial ones we can come up with.

[dirkterrell]

I definitely agree with needing to make it easier to pull in new racers. I'm just asking how you reason this as a solution. Do you think alot of non-racers stay out because they are worried the novices have superbike built motors?

Where did I reason that it was a solution? You asked if anyone was running a completely stock bike. I answered that I was. That's the extent of my input to this discussion up to this point.

Do I think that a lot of non-racers are worried about superbike motors? Of course not. As I pointed out in the other thread about new novice classes, at the novice level the bikes don't make that big of a difference. Witness the number of 600s in the top 10 of Nov-O.

From what I gather from the proponents of this class, it eliminates the need to do a lot of work on the bike to go out and try racing to see if they like it. It decreases the cost of entry into the game so people can try it out without having to buy a bunch of stuff to prep the bike. At least, that's my take on it from listening to the proponents.

Dirk

[CO750]

I think that we need to define the true purpose of creating this type of class. If it is to provide a cheaper class for existing riders to compete in, then that could be done by tightening up the SS rules more.

If it is to draw in new riders, like the track day guys, then I don't see it making an impact. They are still going to have to get race fairings and safety wire everything. That is a lot more expensive and daunting to a newbie than having an exhaust, which most street and track day riders already have.

I think the best way to get new racers is to go out and educate them. A lot of people that I talk to think that you have to be the fastest guy around to even think about racing, and then you have to build a 15k race bike to be competitive. Most of them don't understand the existing class rules and differences, so making a new class geared towards them isn't something they will really understand without being told.

[bluedevil]

I think that we need to define the true purpose of creating this type of class. If it is to provide a cheaper class for existing riders to compete in, then that could be done by tightening up the SS rules more.

SS classes are expert classes. They dont entice new riders... Production class or some form of restricted class if used to entice new riders would need to be Nov plate class or AM class. (Not that Im not or tightening the rules up anyway in SS but that's a different topic all together) :wink:

[rybo]

From reading the responses, it seems I need to do some clarification:

1) The intention of this class is NOT to create a "new" sportsman class.
2) It is NOT to reduce the cost of "getting into" racing by reducing the amount of bike prep needed
3) It is NOT (entirely) to entice new riders.

What it is is an attempt to reduce the ONGOING cost of racing.

One of the major problems the club has is the ability to retain racers and members that we already have. Every year we turn over a large number of members, and I would suspect that many of them would say it was because it was too expensive.

A production class helps to solve some of this problem by:

1) reducing the cost of keeping the bike competitive
2) reducing the cost of ongoing maintenance (stock motors are very reliable)
3) reducing the cost of spare parts (stock exhaust systems can be had on ebay all day long for very little money)

Finally and I think most importantly, it makes a "riders" class without having to be a SPEC class. Modern motorcycles are all pretty even in terms of performance, so all in all it would be a pretty even grid bike wise.

I, for one, proposed this class because I would actually race in it. As Mr. Fox pointed out, the difference in the amount of money that riders are spending on supersport bikes is amazing. This would reduce the money gap to some extent.

Call it a tightening of the supersport rules, sure, but what I wouldn't like to see with supersport is a ruleset that would prevent MRA racers from traveling to race supersport races if they wanted to, or a set of rules so restrictive that traveling racers don't come and race with us.

Again, I'm not a pioneer in this, production class racing is happening in clubs all over the country.

Please read my original rule change proposal for details, while this is the ongoing discussion, there are questions raised here that are addressed in the rule change proposal itself.

scott

[JWinter]

Scott I love your idea!!! But this exists! Cromer has proven that a stock bike can win races. If we want to reduce the cost of racing than ride a lightweight. Heavy bikes in any trim will eat tires and when they crash cost more to fix.

Here is the million dollar question? Will the manufactures pay contingency for this class? And if so then I would have to buy a new bike every 2 years and that doesn't make racing cheaper. And if a rider isn't running in the top 3 that rider isn't winning much other contingency either?

Racing costs alot of money if you don't win and costs less if you win.

Again I love the idea of a bone stock class, but it won't accomplish the goals Scott has set for it.

Jeff