Novice Waves in MW, HW, and Open Classes

[oldtimer]

I guess I'm not envisioning a first weekend novice signing up for MWSB... but who knows - maybe they wouldn't know better?

I think you're underestimating the turn out if these classes are created. Remember, under this proposal novices are not actually racing the experts. They're racing each other in a separately scored division, just like the MVGTU/LOR 2 wave grid. So regardless of how many times a novice gets lapped by Dalton, he can still get a top finish in his own separate class, with more trophies and another championship. If I was a novice I would find this appealing.

I anticipate a lot of people signing up for MWSB, as well as all the other SS and SB classes. If I really thought my fellow GTO novices would be "too scared" to enter OSB with the super fast guys, why wouldn't I sign up on my 600 and collect my 1st place novice OSB trophy by myself? To give our novices credit, I don't think they'll be scared I think they'll all enter!

I'm not completely against this idea, but I want to understand how this will work if it's implemented. What's the point of our novice and amateur championships if we create all these new classes? If we're going to have a Novice MWSB Championship, is it fair to exclude some novices from competing from the get-go if they don't meet a laptime cutoff? That doesn't seem right. We currently have giant novice grids, how will everyone be assimilated?

[benfoxmra95]

What about contingency money? Will Michelin Pirelli etc... Pay out for all these extra classses? If not then will that be a deciding factor on who signs up?

[snay]

I guess I'm not envisioning a first weekend novice signing up for MWSB... but who knows - maybe they wouldn't know better?

I think you're underestimating the turn out if these classes are created. Remember, under this proposal novices are not actually racing the experts. They're racing each other in a separately scored division, just like the MVGTU/LOR 2 wave grid. So regardless of how many times a novice gets lapped by Dalton, he can still get a top finish in his own separate class, with more trophies and another championship. If I was a novice I would find this appealing.

I anticipate a lot of people signing up for MWSB, as well as all the other SS and SB classes. If I really thought my fellow GTO novices would be "too scared" to enter OSB with the super fast guys, why wouldn't I sign up on my 600 and collect my 1st place novice OSB trophy by myself? To give our novices credit, I don't think they'll be scared I think they'll all enter!

I'm not completely against this idea, but I want to understand how this will work if it's implemented. What's the point of our novice and amateur championships if we create all these new classes? If we're going to have a Novice MWSB Championship, is it fair to exclude some novices from competing from the get-go if they don't meet a laptime cutoff? That doesn't seem right. We currently have giant novice grids, how will everyone be assimilated?

just my opinion I'm not looking to get any points or cash just more sprint races i can run in well cash ok :shock:

[gsnyder828]

just my opinion I'm not looking to get any points or cash just more sprint races i can run in

Shawn - out of curiousity, why don't you move up to expert? :?: Then you can run MWSS, MWSB, HWSS, HWSB, OSS, OSB, MWEnd, Open End, AmU and AmO on your 600 and 1000.

That's 10 classes in a weekend! \/

[CO750]

just my opinion I'm not looking to get any points or cash just more sprint races i can run in

Shawn - out of curiousity, why don't you move up to expert? :?: Then you can run MWSS, MWSB, HWSS, HWSB, OSS, OSB, MWEnd, Open End, AmU and AmO on your 600 and 1000.

That's 10 classes in a weekend! \/

I think that is the whole point of this idea. As an expert you have a multitude of classes to choose to race in. As a novice you really only have gtu and gto to race against other novices. This would give more options for that while not impacting the overall schedule.

[gsnyder828]

I think that is the whole point of this idea. As an expert you have a multitude of classes to choose to race in. As a novice you really only have gtu and gto to race against other novices. This would give more options for that while not impacting the overall schedule.

OK, so you recognize that the opportunity exists to run additional classes - simply by moving to expert.

Why not advance to expert then?

:? You just like the color yellow? :?

[CO750]

This is for those of us who don't yet have the option to move to expert.

And I love the color yellow. It matches so well with my helmet and brings out the color of my eyes. :lol:

[gsnyder828]

This is for those of us who don't yet have the option to move to expert.

Help me understand why you don't have that option?

[rybo]

In my opinion, this is a major change of the schedule to add novice racers on the expert grids.

Casey,

One of the reasons I made this proposal is that it is exactly ZERO change to the schedule. The July 26th race there were 14 bikes on the grid in MW SS, and 21 in MWSB. By any measure we really can't call these "full" grids. ROR U only had 15, and that is what we call the premier class that caters exactly to the 20%. Hell, us old slow guys in Twins U fielded 14 bikes (the same as MW SS) and we ran with the second wave of Modern Vintage GTO.

What I'm driving at here is that the argument that the "grid will be too big" is an argument for a problem that we AREN'T even close to having.

Looking at the other classes:

Novice U - 34
Amateur U- 32
Novice O - 41
Amateur O - 28

Now, here is where it gets interesting:

LW/MW endurance = 40 riders total

This is the situation you speak of with some of the fastest most aggressive 600 riders and some of the slowest least experienced novices together on the same track at the same time. Not only that, but the length of the race means that the slower riders are getting lapped multiple times. On the 26th the slowest rider was lapped 6 times by the fastest rider.

From watching the starts and races carefully I honestly believe that we can run 50 to 60 bikes on the track at HPR in a race environment with properly trained riders (which I believe we have in spades). A 2 wave start with 30 bikes per wave scored separately for novice and expert seems like a reasonable and safe solution to expanding what the club can offer to it's members.

Ben:

In the review of results I just did I have to agree with you and at the very least this rule proposal goes a small step towards offering (2) more 1000CC classes to our novices. I also agree that further tapping our REGULAR existing membership is a hard way to go, but I see this as a way to give the occasional racers (and we have a lot of them) more of a reason to come. Some of my biggest costs in a race weekend involve getting to and from the track. If I can get more bang for my buck while I'm there, then why wouldn't I?

Are we doing this to better support the Novice rider who only shows up on Sunday and happens to run a 1000cc so he can race more then one race?

I dont think that rider falls under the 80% we are worried about right?

Sorry to pick on you Casey, but you ask good questions. We should be worried about 100% of the racers, and the needs of some groups of racers are mutually exclusive to the needs of other groups. In the end it's a delicate balance of taking care of the whole club in the amounts that they need to continue to want to come racing.

Ben: Re Contingency

Who knows? The contingency sponsors put together their packages based on what classes we offer. They may or may not offer contingency for these classes, but I'm guessing they will. These classes offer a direct advancement to classes that share exactly the same rules as an expert.

CO750: Re: limiting which novices are allowed to race

Again I think this has been answered in several ways, one is using the existing heat race system once the grid gets too big.

That being said see the note above about the LW/MW endurance and the speed differential in that class.

oldtimer: Re underestimating the turn out for these classes

I would be pleasently surprised if we "underestimated" anything to do with turn out or revenue generation for the club next year.

I'm glad to see that this topic has developed some lively discussion.

Scott (aka Rybo)

[snay]

just my opinion I'm not looking to get any points or cash just more sprint races i can run in

Shawn - out of curiousity, why don't you move up to expert? :?: Then you can run MWSS, MWSB, HWSS, HWSB, OSS, OSB, MWEnd, Open End, AmU and AmO on your 600 and 1000.

That's 10 classes in a weekend! \/

This was my first year ever on a race track I'm hoping get a few trophy's and move up !next year i will work hard this off season miller Vegas and prump on riding and my cardio and see how it goes next year.

[gsnyder828]

LW/MW endurance = 40 riders total

This is the situation you speak of with some of the fastest most aggressive 600 riders and some of the slowest least experienced novices together on the same track at the same time. Not only that, but the length of the race means that the slower riders are getting lapped multiple times. On the 26th the slowest rider was lapped 6 times by the fastest rider.

Scott - all due respect, but I don't think it's fair to compare a 30 minute amateur class endurance race involving (maybe) some tire $$ to the top 5 with a 7 lap sprint with national level bounty hunters + all our fast guys going after real manufacturer's contingency dollars.

Apples and oranges.

The endurance races may have a handful of our fast guys, but the sprints certainly have more/deeper talent and a higher level of "urgency" since the top guys are battling for their paycheck on some weekends.

What I'm driving at here is that the argument that the "grid will be too big" is an argument for a problem that we AREN'T even close to having.

I agree - but why approach the issue by incenting novices to stay novices rather than incenting novices to move to expert and filling the expert grids? They're the light grids - not the novice grids. Added benefit is more classes to run once you bump up.

It seems like we're looking to establish a perpetual novice class by adding more and more incentive to stay novice rather than adding incentives to move to expert.

Heck, you don't even have to do service hours anymore. That was a big motivator for me to move to expert - since it meant a 1/2 day of work instead of riding. Now you write what - a $50 check?

[CO750]

This is for those of us who don't yet have the option to move to expert.

Help me understand why you don't have that option?

Well, I'm speaking of myself and others who weren't able to race every round and finish high enough in the points to qualify to "move up". Or even first year racers.

For those people who only make 4-5 weekends, this gives them more options to race. And for those who are at every round, they get even more time on the track.

Scott: I only think there should be some sort of qualifying for novices because I don't think the whole NovU/O grids should just be duplicated behind the experts. It doesn't seem fair to the experts riders who are chasing contingency to have to weave through 40+ other riders. But I think that about the top half of the novice grids would be a good compromise.

And just to clarify, I don't stand to benefit in either situation. Unless my right hand magically learns where the gas is this winter, I probably wouldn't be eligible to race in these classes under the type of proposal I suggested. And I wouldn't unless I thought I could be competitive and not be a safety hazard as a back marker.

[benfoxmra95]

Snyder hit one of my points I was making earlier this year.

There's no real incentive to move to novice. And when you are a novice an get bumped because you finished well enough you are posed with the question of spending a crapload of money on a "supersport" bike.

I have talked to numerous novices over the years who purposefully stayed novice to collect novice contingency.

[Scored51]

In my opinion, this is a major change of the schedule to add novice racers on the expert grids.

Casey,

Now, here is where it gets interesting:

LW/MW endurance = 40 riders total

There were actually 49 riders scored by the transponder system during that race and I believe the sign ups were for had 41 for MW End and 13 for LW End totaling 54 bikes.

[marty]

maybe we could combine a couple of rule changes to appeal to everyone. what if we did an expert "show room stock" class gtu/gto (cases covers and tires for mods) and as a second wave have a sunday novice grid. this would keep the expert classes novice free except for two, and give the sunday novices two more classes to run.

[polar x]

I walked thru the pits sunday and spoke with several riders and asked their opinion on what they wanted and thought was important for the new clubs president to tackle. How to keep novices and get more novices in the club was in the top 3. If we don't cater to the novices how can we expect them to keep coming back and become the experts of the future?

I dont see how adding nov races to our existing scheds will keep the novices from moving up. Frankly with out them we as a club will not grow. We need to structure the club to be what the customer wants. I am not saying to ignore the experts but the experts wont keep this club healthy. More novices will.

I like the idea and if it ends up with huge grids and problems with to many bikes, well thats a GREAT problem to have that we can fix if the time comes.

[froth]

Just to hit the large grid situation. LW and MW endurance, with the 54 machines was, to say the least FUN! Sometime around the third lap, LW was mixing in with the MW back markers, and it was a hoot.
If we wind up with two (large) wave starts, great. As the man said, we can deal with that issue when it arrives, but as for being in the 54 bike situation, the track wasn't crowded, and when we got four or five of us in a turn......that's why they call it racing.
Very good discussion gang! I'm enjoying reading what everyone is thinking, as well as why they think that way.

[dirkterrell]

As one of the slowpoke novices, I'll weigh in with my view on things. This is a healthy discussion and I can see it from the point of view of the fast experts as well as my own slow novice viewpoint. Good points made by all.

I'm trying to get better by getting instruction and riding more. Having more races appeals to me, especially since I'm on a 750. I race for fun, pure and simple. I don't care about points or trophies. I was doing Nov-O but bailed on it because with the huge grids and huge range of skills, it was just too dicey. I just saw too much dicey passing and decided it wasn't worth it. I was even run into once (not bumped, nearly knocked off the bike). I have no problem with close racing and even trading paint but I don't enjoy being run (slammed) into.

It seems to me that what we need is a way for novices with more similar skill sets to race each other. I really think that the whole GTU/GTO concept is not optimal at the novice level. Look at the number of 600s in the top 10 of Nov-O. Clearly at this level the bike is a much less important part of the equation than the riders. What we really need is a classification based on rider skills that offers a more graduated way of progressing towards expert status, maybe something like Nov-A, Nov-B, Nov-C where Nov-A is like sportsman and Nov-C is like Nov-O. I know this doesn't have the elegance of the solution Scott is offering and it might be difficult to implement, but it's an idea that seems worth exploring, at least from the point of view of a slow novice looking to get better.

Dirk

[CO750]

With that idea all you are doing is taking the novice grid, splitting it in thirds, and adding two races to the schedule, but not allowing a novice to race in any more events than before.

Really, that is what sportsman is for. If you don't feel comfortable on the big novice grid you race in sportsman.

I'm not trying to jump on your case, and I am a slow novice myself, but you don't get faster racing in sportsman, or NovU/O. If you really want to get faster you need to put in time on the track outside of races working on different aspects of your skills.

[racedk6]

Snyder hit one of my points I was making earlier this year.

There's no real incentive to move to novice. And when you are a novice an get bumped because you finished well enough you are posed with the question of spending a crapload of money on a "supersport" bike.

I have talked to numerous novices over the years who purposefully stayed novice to collect novice contingency.

If you look at the top 3-5 in NOV and AM, they are running times either on par or not much off the SS times. Yes some have modified bikes but some like myself and Cromer do not. Our mods are all bolt on mods that almost anybody can afford and most are the standard on what gets put on a race bike when you build one or buy one.

[cromer611]

if the goal is to collect more money for the club with entrees. why not move Novice classes to sunday, rather than let novices race with experts. just my opinion.
-oh and you dont need to spend a shit ton of dough to run in supersport : ) the key to that is in your wrist and two fingers. : P

[dragos13]

Scott - all due respect, but I don't think it's fair to compare a 30 minute amateur class endurance race involving (maybe) some tire $$ to the top 5 with a 7 lap sprint with national level bounty hunters + all our fast guys going after real manufacturer's contingency dollars.

Apples and oranges.

The endurance races may have a handful of our fast guys, but the sprints certainly have more/deeper talent and a higher level of "urgency" since the top guys are battling for their paycheck on some weekends.

What I'm driving at here is that the argument that the "grid will be too big" is an argument for a problem that we AREN'T even close to having.

I agree - but why approach the issue by incenting novices to stay novices rather than incenting novices to move to expert and filling the expert grids? They're the light grids - not the novice grids. Added benefit is more classes to run once you bump up.

It seems like we're looking to establish a perpetual novice class by adding more and more incentive to stay novice rather than adding incentives to move to expert.

Heck, you don't even have to do service hours anymore. That was a big motivator for me to move to expert - since it meant a 1/2 day of work instead of riding. Now you write what - a $50 check?

Great points Geoff.

Steve, if the Novice riders are on par with SS riders, then maybe they should just finish the season and move to white plates. I still dont understand the point or revenue that will come from this. As a novice, you can run novice classes and then get your "expert" fix running Amateur. Once you finish your novice year (which normally should only be one year to begin with if you are wanting to move up) then you can still dominate in Amateur and get your feet wet in SS and SB. What is the need for a first year novice to battle with on an all expert grid? I have no problem with someone like yourself running with experts as I expect to be doing that next year with you anyways. I just feel like we need to get novices into white plates and fill our ACTUAL expert grids. I would love to have 30 experts gridded up in MWSS. Plus with the HIGH level of skill from our Novices last year, I think we are going to be doing pretty well there.

Scott, I know you said 0 impact to the schedule, however there will definitely be an increase in time for these races to finish. Also, an increase in crashes due to have an additional group on the grid. Endurance is definitely not the same as a sprint race as you are talking about Matt Lynn, Jason Disalvo, Kane Laski, and so on. Those guys are head hunting for money and are on a SPRINT race. They are not on the slower pace of an endurance since they sometimes have several thousand dollars on the line.

Marty, I really agree with your idea of creating another superstock type beginner class. That will give them more classes to choose from, and still keep the incentive of becoming an expert to ride expert classes.

Chris, if all we do is cater to the Novice riders then we might as well just make all classes novice classes. Here we are already talking about cutting/combining our PREMIER class. Now we also want to make every expert class tagged on by a Novice class? How does the thought of lap traffic appeal to our experts? Next year all the fast Novices will be bumped to white plates and running these expert classes anyways. The ones who were not bumped and choose not to progress, again, will stay in the novice classes.

I agree that Novice riders are what keep this club alive so why dont we do more to make it easier to get them on the grid? Most new riders dont jump on board because its so damn expensive. So we are going to respond with "hey now you can run 10 classes". I mean thats several sets of tires and lots of gas.

I hope we can keep our focus on bringing in new riders and spectators, appealing to the experts as well as the novices, and get this club to grow. So, why dont we create more classes that will give new riders easier ways to get involved? I mean, each person who chooses to run an additional race only brings in what $20 for a 3rd or 4th race? Will that really amount to much? Wouldnt' it be better to get a couple trackday guys out here, running a superstreet class, and geting 1st entry and 2nd entry fees collected? Just one race costs $140 so if we could get one new rider, that would equal about 7 novices joining these proposed classes. The math just doesn't add up to me.

[dirkterrell]

Ok, I posted a reply to this thread last night after CO750's comments on my first post and now I don't see it. Hopefully I still have it cached on the laptop at home.

Dirk

[gsnyder828]

I just feel like we need to get novices into white plates and fill our ACTUAL expert grids. I would love to have 30 experts gridded up in MWSS.

=D>

[jplracing]

Okay here is my $.02

I completely agree with the efforts to increase revenue and provide more classes for someone on the outside looking in to get involved

But I think that two major points are being missed in this discussion.

1) When a new marketing plan (and this is what this suggestion really is) is developed in any business, it is built around data collected from the consumers. Has anyone thought of polling next years novices to see if they would be interested in this type of structure? My concern is this may increase the novice ranks by a few and add a few dollars to the revenue bucket, but would this really create NEW RIDERS or just spread out the current ranks over different classes? Honestly a question that I don't have the answer too.

2) In the last few months of attending the meetings and listing to what the current board had to say, it appears that the average racer spends $200 in entry fees per race weekend. Is this because of the current state of the economy and all they can afford or is this because of the class structure and all there bikes are eligible for? My guess is that over the past two seasons, money has been a more important factor to the individual racer. My gut feeling is that the economy isn't going to be that much stronger (and god forbid could be worse next summer). Should we be looking at ways to provide a bigger bang for the dollar that is already being spent?

I personally believe that this could be one piece to the financial puzzle that we are searching for so that we don't end up in the same boat next year as we did this year. However, as with most things in life, 20% of the club is responding in this thread....I think it is vastly more important to get the opinion of the 80% that isn't involved in this discussion and the opinions of the people that are thinking about becoming racers next year.

Joe