Novice Waves in MW, HW, and Open Classes

[T Baggins]

I see the value in that we have additional opportunites for our CURRENT customers to spend more money at our store. We need to increase revenues in order to succeed financially. This is only one facet of a multi-faceted approach to growing the club and club revenues.

I think you've overstated the racing opportunities for Novices. Obviously they can't run all 4 endurance races since we run them two by two. And if the racer has a modern bike, anything bigger than 600cc's, or a penis then he's pretty much excluded from most of the rest you've mentioned.

A novice who works on saturday and rides a 750 or 1000 is limited ONLY to Amateur O. Not much of an incentive for a new guy to spend $140 and then wait around all day for a 7 lap race.

Do you really think every Nov U rider will run MWSB? Personally I think the racers who are top 15-20 will run it, but the others would probably prefer NOT to have their ass handed to them by Dalton on lap 2. If it becomes a problem with too many entries -THEN- we should look at cutoff times, etc.

My question to you is "why not"? What would it hurt to give our racers an opportunity to get more track time and spend more money with the club? ***remember, we're "not" the AMA***

[dragos13]

In my opinion, this is a major change of the schedule to add novice racers on the expert grids. Not only that but also a safety issue.

Why are we making such changes? Are we doing this to better support the Novice rider who only shows up on Sunday and happens to run a 1000cc so he can race more then one race?

I dont think that rider falls under the 80% we are worried about right?

[T Baggins]

couple things:

1) we aren't making these changes - this is a rule change suggestion (which I happen to favor)

2) it's "no" change to the schedule at all. It just adds a second wave to six classes.

2) $

3) $$

4) $$$

Is nobody but me seeing the financial benefit provided by this? If we had 15 novices in each of the 6 races (which is very reasonable) that would net the club an additional $1800 per weekend MINIMUM. This from the racers who are ALREADY THERE ANYWAY. NO extra cost to the club, no need to recruit new members, nothing. Just free money for the club.

We could just as easily raise entry fees for everyone (say $20 per racer) to get the same net effect. But the riders get NO additional benefit if we do that. NO extra races, nothing - just a fee increase.

For the record, this wasn't my rule suggestion - but I think it is an excellent way to provide additional racing opportunities and revenue stream for the club.

If you're opposed to it, go to the rules meeting and be heard. I'm voting "yes" unless someone can convince me why this is a bad idea...

[oldtimer]

If a novice comes in to the club on a 750 or 1000 and can only race sundays, that gives them one class they can race they can run under the current structure.

I understand the point, but this is about rider choice. I self select my class options based on the racebike I choose to run. For example you and I both selected 600's to give us more classes. I previously owned an 850 twin and replaced that bike with a 600 for this very reason. I respectfully suggest this idea to novices who can't run Saturday and have a liter bike.

[oldtimer]

Is nobody but me seeing the financial benefit provided by this? If we had 15 novices in each of the 6 races (which is very reasonable) that would net the club an additional $1800 per weekend MINIMUM. This from the racers who are ALREADY THERE ANYWAY. NO extra cost to the club, no need to recruit new members, nothing. Just free money for the club.

We could just as easily raise entry fees for everyone (say $20 per racer) to get the same net effect. But the riders get NO additional benefit if we do that. NO extra races, nothing - just a fee increase.

For the record, this wasn't my rule suggestion - but I think it is an excellent way to provide additional racing opportunities and revenue stream for the club.

If you're opposed to it, go to the rules meeting and be heard. I'm voting "yes" unless someone can convince me why this is a bad idea...

I do see the financial benefit. I'm also considering the impact to the expert racing the SS and SB classes.

I think this discussion is about ideas to strengthen the club's finances but not compromise the racing experience. And I don't know that I favor having a massive novice wave to race through in my expert classes. I believe there will be more than 15 novices in the middleweight, and possibly heavyweight grids, what if there are 20, or 30? I'm interested in hearing more comments on the topic.

[T Baggins]

it's being done successfully at other MAJOR race organizations throughout the country. further, clubs like the AFM don't even run Novice classes - everybody runs together and the fast experts get thru the slower riders (novice and expert both) just fine. maybe their experts are just more "expert" than our experts... :lol:

[CO750]

I can see both sides of this. You don't want the entire NovU grid lining up on MWSS/MWSB along with the experts. However, there were quite a few novice this year that finished in the top 5-10 in their novice races AND their amateur races. So obviously they are fast enough to compete with, and beat, some of the experts.

I think a safe and fair compromise would be to put a qualifier in the rule for eligibility. It could be along the lines that once a novice had finished a novice race in the top 10 or an amateur race in the top 15 they would be eligible to compete in the novice wave along with the expert classes.

You get the safety factor of only putting people on the grid that are fast enough to not be a safety hazard, yet still allow novices to run with experts, get more races and still compete for their own standings. With this, you also filter out the random guy who signs up for his first race weekend and signs up for all the expert races because he thinks he's the next Spies, and promptly gets blown past all day long and never comes back.

[T Baggins]

Rybo, this was your damn rule suggestion... where are you bro?? Gonna sit there and let me take all the heat?!? Yeah, I see how you are.... :lol:

[dragos13]

it's being done successfully at other MAJOR race organizations throughout the country. further, clubs like the AFM don't even run Novice classes - everybody runs together and the fast experts get thru the slower riders (novice and expert both) just fine. maybe their experts are just more "expert" than our experts... :lol:

It would be totally understandable to grid them with experts in the MRA if the MRA didn't have novice classes. But we do 8)

My main issue is allowing someone who has never raced before in their life, to grid up in some very aggressive classes. Personally, I think income can be found not by giving a novice an extra class, but doing something to get experts to return to the grid, something I feel is currently being overlooked.

[T Baggins]

If the committee recommends a "cut off" along the lines of what co750 suggests, then that may be a reasonable solution. I guess I'm not envisioning a first weekend novice signing up for MWSB... but who knows - maybe they wouldn't know better?

If you have a solution on how to bring existing experts back to the grid, please share... or better yet, make it part of your Bio and then come be a rider rep and join in all the fun! :lol:

[hcr25]

So WERA has been doing it this way for years with very good success. They do have some novice only classes but many are run with the expert grids.
here is what a daily race schedule from WERA looks like

http://www.wera.com/pdfs/2008Schedul...ings090609.pdf

9:00am - 11:30am Practice Groups as follows:
1) 600cc Experts 4) Lightweight Novices and Experts
2) 750cc and Up Novices 5) 600cc Novices
3) 750cc and Up Experts 6) Minis
11:30am - 12:30pm Lunch Break
11:40am Riders Meeting - Tech
12:10pm Chapel Service - TBA
12:30pm Pirelli/WERA Sportsman Series Races - 8 Laps each
1a) Minis - 6 laps
1) A Superstock Ex & Nv
2) WSS, HWT SB, V6 HW, V7MW
3) C Superstock Expert
4) C Superstock Novice
5) Formula 2 Ex & Nv
6) Senior Superbike Ex & Nv
7) B Superstock Expert
8) B Superstock Novice
9) C Superbike Ex, HWT SS Ex & Nv
10) C Superbike Novice
11) 125cc GP, Clubman
12) Formula 1 Expert & Novice
13) LWT SS, DSB, ESS Ex & Nv
14) B Superbike Expert, V7 HW
15) B Superbike Novice
16) LWT SB, DSS
17) A Superbike Expert & Novice
- Awards Presentation in Tech following last

[CO750]

I guess I'm not envisioning a first weekend novice signing up for MWSB... but who knows - maybe they wouldn't know better?

Many people know where they stand and what classes wouldn't be good for them to run in. But there are always some who's ego, self image, showing off for a girl, whatever, makes them believe/do stupid things.

I just think a cutoff weeds out all of these scenarios, yet still increases classes and entry fees. Plus, it can be viewed like a reward for the novices that are entering races and doing well. They get to have a preview of the competition in the expert classes they could be competing in the next year.

[dragos13]

If you have a solution on how to bring existing experts back to the grid, please share... or better yet, make it part of your Bio and then come be a rider rep and join in all the fun! :lol:

I'm worried that combining expert and novice as well as cutting/combining ROR will do just the opposite.

Again, when I was a Novice I ran 4 classes. Plenty for most racers out there. The "majority" of novices run both saturday and sunday, and also run on a 600cc bike. If we are working towards making the majority happy, how is this being accomplished by letting them run 6 or 8 races per weekend?

I think a big reason that experts didn't come back was due to the economy and just not being affordable. Maybe lower entry fees, more class choices for experts, keeping RORU etc. will help keep experts around.

[benfoxmra95]

i don't see novices running 6 races plus an endurance per weekend if they can barely afford to run 2/3 races with tires and gas money.

I guess There's no penalty to allow more riders sign up, so go ahead and do it.

but let's find some other way to get more track time to the 1000cc riders.

maybe another class, Open GP Superbike Extreme class.

[dragos13]

So WERA has been doing it this way for years with very good success. They do have some novice only classes but many are run with the expert grids.
here is what a daily race schedule from WERA looks like

http://www.wera.com/pdfs/2008Schedul...ings090609.pdf

9:00am - 11:30am Practice Groups as follows:
1) 600cc Experts 4) Lightweight Novices and Experts
2) 750cc and Up Novices 5) 600cc Novices
3) 750cc and Up Experts 6) Minis
11:30am - 12:30pm Lunch Break
11:40am Riders Meeting - Tech
12:10pm Chapel Service - TBA
12:30pm Pirelli/WERA Sportsman Series Races - 8 Laps each
1a) Minis - 6 laps
1) A Superstock Ex & Nv
2) WSS, HWT SB, V6 HW, V7MW
3) C Superstock Expert
4) C Superstock Novice
5) Formula 2 Ex & Nv
6) Senior Superbike Ex & Nv
7) B Superstock Expert
8) B Superstock Novice
9) C Superbike Ex, HWT SS Ex & Nv
10) C Superbike Novice
11) 125cc GP, Clubman
12) Formula 1 Expert & Novice
13) LWT SS, DSB, ESS Ex & Nv
14) B Superbike Expert, V7 HW
15) B Superbike Novice
16) LWT SB, DSS
17) A Superbike Expert & Novice
- Awards Presentation in Tech following last

It looks like the only classes being combined are the open SS and SB. Middle and Heavy ( class B and C) are still seperate. Also appears WERA runs a 1 day format? Are we on board with WERA as everyone in the post has said?

[hcr25]

I think a big reason that experts didn't come back was due to the economy and just not being affordable. Maybe lower entry fees, more class choices for experts, keeping RORU etc. will help keep experts around.

How much do you think we would need to lower the entry fees?
If the average racer spends $200.00 now and we lowered it by $50.00
do you think that would make the difference? Or would we need to lower it even more?
Mike

[dragos13]

How much do you think we would need to lower the entry fees?
If the average racer spends $200.00 now and we lowered it by $50.00
do you think that would make the difference? Or would we need to lower it even more?
Mike

Honestly I dont think the club should lower fees. I just feel the major reason people dont return to road racing is that its expensive. Alot that I know are now riding dirt or supermoto and its usually $35 per day. Of course we can't accomplish something like that and personally I dont think its feasible.

Maybe we can lower the first entry amount letting people who only want to run 1 or 2 classes to do it for slightly cheaper.

[benfoxmra95]

I see the value in that we have additional opportunites for our CURRENT customers to spend more money at our store. We need to increase revenues in order to succeed financially. This is only one facet of a multi-faceted approach to growing the club and club revenues.

I agree with this setiment. But I'd honestly like to see the other facets focused on to grow the club. And not look inwards towards our current memebership to spend more of their money than already can afford.

[hcr25]

click the link they are a two day club. only copied and pasted one day just for an example

[dragos13]

click the link they are a two day club. only copied and pasted one day just for an example

ok thanks ops:

[oldtimer]

So WERA has been doing it this way for years with very good success. They do have some novice only classes but many are run with the expert grids.
here is what a daily race schedule from WERA looks like

http://www.wera.com/pdfs/2008Schedul...ings090609.pdf

9:00am - 11:30am Practice Groups as follows:
1) 600cc Experts 4) Lightweight Novices and Experts
2) 750cc and Up Novices 5) 600cc Novices
3) 750cc and Up Experts 6) Minis
11:30am - 12:30pm Lunch Break
11:40am Riders Meeting - Tech
12:10pm Chapel Service - TBA
12:30pm Pirelli/WERA Sportsman Series Races - 8 Laps each
1a) Minis - 6 laps
1) A Superstock Ex & Nv
2) WSS, HWT SB, V6 HW, V7MW
3) C Superstock Expert
4) C Superstock Novice
5) Formula 2 Ex & Nv
6) Senior Superbike Ex & Nv
7) B Superstock Expert
8) B Superstock Novice
9) C Superbike Ex, HWT SS Ex & Nv
10) C Superbike Novice
11) 125cc GP, Clubman
12) Formula 1 Expert & Novice
13) LWT SS, DSB, ESS Ex & Nv
14) B Superbike Expert, V7 HW
15) B Superbike Novice
16) LWT SB, DSS
17) A Superbike Expert & Novice
- Awards Presentation in Tech following last

Just an FYI, their gridding system is different than our pre-planned schedule.

Because I'm planning to attend a WERA race this year I recently spoke with a WERA racer about where I would be gridded as a novice. She told me they rearrange the schedule for every weekend based on sign-ups. So if a ton of middleweight racers show up I'll probably run a separate race, if not I'll be gridded behind the experts.

[snay]

I'd like to hear more about why we should add 6 more novice classes/championships to the existing schedule. Currently novices can run novU, novO, amU, amO, 4 endurance classes plus all the "exception rule classes" like twins, ladies, CO class, etc. Do they need to race every single class the entire weekend, PLUS Novice and Amateur classes?

I also predict that MWSB is going to be overwhelming, since almost every novU rider will qualify. I'm looking forward to having expert classes without novices in them to race in. As a first year expert I'll already be gridding up with novices in the Amateur classes, so the only difference in AmU and MWSB under this proposal is whether novices are shuffled in or listed separately in finishes. I'm not sure I see the value in this restructuring.

hell yes its a good thing not all novices will take part but i will i drive 14 hrs to race in the mra and 1 time 22 hrs to race each bike once a day 4 total races i would love to race more sprint races if we the mra can make it work =D>

[hcr25]

Just an FYI, their gridding system is different than our pre-planned schedule.

Because I'm planning to attend a WERA race this year I recently spoke with a WERA racer about where I would be gridded as a novice. She told me they rearrange the schedule for every weekend based on sign-ups. So if a ton of middleweight racers show up I'll probably run a separate race, if not I'll be gridded behind the experts.[/quote]


Sounds like it works for them.

[snay]

I see the value in that we have additional opportunites for our CURRENT customers to spend more money at our store. We need to increase revenues in order to succeed financially. This is only one facet of a multi-faceted approach to growing the club and club revenues.

I think you've overstated the racing opportunities for Novices. Obviously they can't run all 4 endurance races since we run them two by two. And if the racer has a modern bike, anything bigger than 600cc's, or a penis then he's pretty much excluded from most of the rest you've mentioned.

A novice who works on saturday and rides a 750 or 1000 is limited ONLY to Amateur O. Not much of an incentive for a new guy to spend $140 and then wait around all day for a 7 lap race.

Do you really think every Nov U rider will run MWSB? Personally I think the racers who are top 15-20 will run it, but the others would probably prefer NOT to have their ass handed to them by Dalton on lap 2. If it becomes a problem with too many entries -THEN- we should look at cutoff times, etc.

My question to you is "why not"? What would it hurt to give our racers an opportunity to get more track time and spend more money with the club? ***remember, we're "not" the AMA***

I'm with you tony it takes Thursday to Monday night every round and i get to race 4 races!! don't get me wrong I'm not bitchin i would love to race more with the mra!!!

[CO750]

I see the value in that we have additional opportunites for our CURRENT customers to spend more money at our store. We need to increase revenues in order to succeed financially. This is only one facet of a multi-faceted approach to growing the club and club revenues.

I agree with this setiment. But I'd honestly like to see the other facets focused on to grow the club. And not look inwards towards our current memebership to spend more of their money than already can afford.

I agree with that fully. We continue to look for existing members to shell out more money, when most are at the limit already. In the long run I think this pressure will turn away more members.

Personally, I like this idea if it is limited to what novices are allowed to race in these classes. It gives those who have the ability and money to race more, generates more revenue, and doesn't put a strain on all members like raising entry fees across the board would.