Novice Waves in MW, HW, and Open Classes

[T Baggins]

discussion moved here. The proposal is to add additional Novice classes, to run as a second wave to the existing Expert classes.

MW SS Novice
MW SB Novice

HW SS Novice
HW SB Novice

Open SS Novice
Open SB Novice

The intent of the classes, I believe, are to provide additional opportunities for Novices to race during the weekend - thus increasing race entry revenue for the club.

My thought is that probably not more than 15-20 Novice racers will ride up - not 40+ as Geoff suggests.

It should be noted that MANY clubs in the US do this, and some (like the AFM for example) run completely combined classes all the time. 60+ bikes, mixed Novice and Expert - all running in 600 Superbike. Good Times!

[T Baggins]

a response from the other thread:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dragos13 wrote:
I always thought the reason for class eligibility (yellow versus white plates) was a matter of safety.


+1

I can't imagine the chaos of Matt Lynn and Jason Disalvo battling for contingency $$ through a field of 40+ new novices.

*If* we went this route - I would suggest getting rid of Nov O and Nov U and moving to LWSB Novice and MWSB Novice (2 waves) running together and HWSB Novice and OSB Novice (2 waves) running together.

If novices want exposure to experts - run amateur classes and/or get an expert plate.
_________________
Geoff Snyder
#76

[dragos13]

Please add some sort of time limit qualification to this rule limiting novices to run in expert classes. We should use some sort of 110% time limit as currently used in ROR. I feel it should be the same for these classes as they have just as fast of riders and usually larger grids.

I have no problem running 60+ bikes mixed with novice and expert, so long as there is some basis to what novices are eligible.

Honestly, if you can run the pace then why are you still on yellow plates?

[T Baggins]

some guys would like to win a novice championship, and still compete with the experts given the opportunity... cromer comes to mind.

If you limit novices to 110%, then shouldn't the experts be held to the same standard? there are many experts who are slower than slow, even by slow guy standards - and they run in these sorts of classes.

remember in order to be successful financially we need to cater to the 80% not the 20%...

AFM has no lap time limits. The fastest guy is on pole, the slowest guy in the back. they make no differentiation between Novice & Expert.

[snay]

some guys would like to win a novice championship, and still compete with the experts given the opportunity... cromer comes to mind.

If you limit novices to 110%, then shouldn't the experts be held to the same standard? there are many experts who are slower than slow, even by slow guy standards - and they run in these sorts of classes.

remember in order to be successful financially we need to cater to the 80% not the 20%...

AFM has no lap time limits. The fastest guy is on pole, the slowest guy in the back. they make no differentiation between Novice & Expert.

=D>

[gsnyder828]

remember in order to be successful financially we need to cater to the 80% not the 20%...

Not to be too off-topic, but I disagree with that statement and think that mindset/framework sets the MRA up for trouble in a down economy.

The 20% (series regulars) are the financial health of the series and the series should be designed to be break-even (at a minimum) around them.

The 80% (part-timers) all have valid reasons why they don't show on a regular basis - a large one being $$. Looking to bring some more of them in is fine - but very few will become regulars and the financial success of the MRA should not depend on them.

[hcr25]

Honestly, if you can run the pace then why are you still on yellow plates?[/quote]

So you are saying Cromer should have moved up and not run novice?

WERA has run experts and novices for years. In the WERA national series they have way more fast guys then us and they dont seem to have any problems getting through traffic.
mike

[T Baggins]

remember in order to be successful financially we need to cater to the 80% not the 20%...

Not to be too off-topic, but I disagree with that statement and think that mindset/framework sets the MRA up for trouble in a down economy.

The 20% (series regulars) are the financial health of the series and the series should be designed to be break-even (at a minimum) around them.

The 80% (part-timers) all have valid reasons why they don't show on a regular basis - a large one being $$. Looking to bring some more of them in is fine - but very few will become regulars and the financial success of the MRA should not depend on them.

Except remember that last year, at Pueblo we took a vote and the "dyed in the wool" racers voted for an 11 race season. It almost bankrupted us... The season was too long, and the costs too great for most normal humans. If we're simply to rely on the 20% (even only to break even $$), then expect entry fees to quadruple...

There's a balance in there somewhere I'm sure - but MY primary objective is to get weekend race entries UP, and per race participation UP. That's the only way we can keep pace with insurance and track rental costs.

[racedk6]

...

[dragos13]

So you are saying Cromer should have moved up and not run novice?

WERA has run experts and novices for years. In the WERA national series they have way more fast guys then us and they dont seem to have any problems getting through traffic.
mike

I told Cromer many times that he would benefit as a racer if he moved up to expert classes.

Hey, if there are peolpe who before wouldn't join the MRA but now will because they can run up in expert classes, then I'm all for this change.

Better yet, why dont we go back to the old schedule since the two day schedule actually screws over some novices right?

Honestly I thought our decline in members was not a lack of novices, but a lack of returning experts. Wasn't that the case this year?

[hcr25]

I think the decline was both. If we do novice mw, hw and open superbike with the expert classes that will give the novices getting screwed 3 more classes to run on Sunday :wink:

[T Baggins]

Casey, there's two things afoot here:

Adding the novice wave to the SS & SB classes is to take the current Novice racers and give them an opportunity to spend more money with the MRA each weekend. Not necessarily to try to bring in new novices, though it could have that effect too... If the current Novice racers added two classes, thats an extra $40-50 each that we wouldn't have otherwise.

Allowing this would "unscrew" :wink: the Novice guys who work on Saturdays. This would leave them with several classes to race on Sunday, instead of just one or two.

The Superstreet (aka beginner) class (other thread) is to incent track day guys to come try racing without having to drop $10K only to find out that they don't really like it after all. This is where the growth of novice riders will come from, imo.

We were distinctly down in renewals this year - both novice and expert. There were 30 Experts and 44 Novices who were licensed last year, but DIDN'T renew this year. And, of the 81 new students we had in April, only about 12 actually got licenses. Further, of the nearly 300 licensed racers this year almost HALF of them NEVER made it to a race... sux, no?

Total 2009 membership breaks down like this (accurate as of race # 8 )

Expert 143

Novice 130

[racedk6]

So in adding these classes, will these guys be riding against the other novices or against the experts points wise?

[dragos13]

Thanks for that info Tony. Wow I didn't realize the lack of students that actually got licenses.

I am not trying to start any fights here, just want to make sure all details are covered. I can see what you mean about being an incentive to race more classes and of course that is appreciate.

I would also be happy to have more then 8 people on the normal supersport grid. Earlier today I would have never voted for such a change but I'm starting to see where you guys are coming from financially.

[marty]

hellz yeah, 125 in open sb next year! i was needing a couple more classes to run!

will novice bikes be required to maintain ss rules for modification to run as the second wave or will the novice wave still have sb rules?

[T Baggins]

So in adding these classes, will these guys be riding against the other novices or against the experts points wise?

they would be scored separately.

[T Baggins]

Thanks for that info Tony. Wow I didn't realize the lack of students that actually got licenses.

I am not trying to start any fights here, just want to make sure all details are covered. I can see what you mean about being an incentive to race more classes and of course that is appreciate.

I would also be happy to have more then 8 people on the normal supersport grid. Earlier today I would have never voted for such a change but I'm starting to see where you guys are coming from financially.

Yeah, it's pretty shocking when you get down to the nutz and boltz of it isn't it??

Asking intelligent questions is not starting fights - and I welcome the input. This allows me to put forth the information that you guys and gals need to create informed opinions for yourselves. There's no easy fix for any of this, unfortunately.

We're trying to find ways to accomodate as many people as possible, still keeping it fun and competitive, and increasing revenue for the club. Sometimes you gotta look at new and different ideas to make it work for everyone.

[T Baggins]

hellz yeah, 125 in open sb next year! i was needing a couple more classes to run!

will novice bikes be required to maintain ss rules for modification to run as the second wave or will the novice wave still have sb rules?

The intent is to have Novice waves in BOTH SS and SB, but they must meet the class structure rules just like the Experts. So, if you're SS legal, then run SS and SB. If you're only SB legal, then run SB, and run "up" in the bigger displacement SB classes too!

[dragos13]

We're trying to find ways to accomodate as many people as possible, still keeping it fun and competitive, and increasing revenue for the club. Sometimes you gotta look at new and different ideas to make it work for everyone.

Thats exactly what the club needs too. We have to adapt to changes to survive and I'm glad we are willing to think outside the normal MRA mindset.

[rybo]

So in adding these classes, will these guys be riding against the other novices or against the experts points wise?

Steve,

They would be scored as two separate races like we do with Vintage and Twins classes.

The main reason for this is so that we don't give up manufacturer contingency in the expert classes. Many manufacturers will NOT pay contingency in Novice or Amateur classes, only expert classes.

There are several models for this around the country including AFM and WERA.

Geoff, I'm all for the safety argument, and want to see good safe racing, after all that is why we go to the track instead of tearing up the canyons. That being said I'm a slow guy who's been on the track with some really fast guys and they've never had any problem making a safe pass.

Also, there are plenty of experts who are running slower lap times than many of the novices. If there is going to be a cutoff then it should apply to all on the grid. Personally I think that's a bad idea. Instead of that I think that using the heat race plan we already have in place is a good solution. We say that at HPR there are X number of spots total on the grid Say at HPR we call that number 60, 30 in each wave. If the number exceeds that then we run heat races for that class and set the grid accordingly.

s

[gsnyder828]

Except remember that last year, at Pueblo we took a vote and the "dyed in the wool" racers voted for an 11 race season. It almost bankrupted us... The season was too long, and the costs too great for most normal humans. If we're simply to rely on the 20% (even only to break even $$), then expect entry fees to quadruple...

Understood - and I know you recognize the difference between "asking what they want" and putting together a fiscally viable season based on data - trending grid levels, participation, etc. and cutting operational costs appropriately (even if that means removing/combining classes and going to a 1 day schedule, etc.) to ensure the health of the org.

That's what I mean by focusing on the 20%.

[Moto-Mania]

Oh nuts, here goes anyway....

Along the lines of what Rybo suggested:

- Set the grid limit for each race/track.
- Fill the grid based on lap times
- Subject to a max lap time cutoff
- Race classes could have different cutoff limits (ROR, SS, AM, etc.)

Probably more work and hard to administer, but that's why we have computers.

[oldtimer]

I'd like to hear more about why we should add 6 more novice classes/championships to the existing schedule. Currently novices can run novU, novO, amU, amO, 4 endurance classes plus all the "exception rule classes" like twins, ladies, CO class, etc. Do they need to race every single class the entire weekend, PLUS Novice and Amateur classes?

I also predict that MWSB is going to be overwhelming, since almost every novU rider will qualify. I'm looking forward to having expert classes without novices in them to race in. As a first year expert I'll already be gridding up with novices in the Amateur classes, so the only difference in AmU and MWSB under this proposal is whether novices are shuffled in or listed separately in finishes. I'm not sure I see the value in this restructuring.

[racedk6]

I'd like to hear more about why we should add 6 more novice classes/championships to the existing schedule. Currently novices can run novU, novO, amU, amO, 4 endurance classes plus all the "exception rule classes" like twins, ladies, CO class, etc. Do they need to race every single class the entire weekend, PLUS Novice and Amateur classes?

If a novice comes in to the club on a 750 or 1000 and can only race sundays, that gives them one class they can race they can run under the current structure.

[benfoxmra95]

The "MR600A"

I truly dislike the fact that you can run so many classes on a 600. And if you show up with a 1000 you've got 3 races 4 including endurance.

If we are going to base te club around 600's then we should tighten up te supersport rules alot.