Rule change suggestions for 2010

[gsnyder828]

That could actually happen in less than 1 race weekend with a 2000 M/Y 600.

Well then is 9 a better # than 6 then? (since one could feasibly enter 8 races/weekend on a 2000 600)

[oldtimer]

E. Any novice racer who finishes in the top 10 in overall points in either Novice GTU or Novice GTO will be ineligible to compete as a Novice in the future unless they do not race for 3 or more seasons and are subject to the requirements
of 4.3.C.

I would like to suggest that this rule be amended to include Am U, Am O and any endurance classes.
If we force a top ten Novice to move to expert, how can we not hold a novice finishing top ten in an Am class to the same standards. I would think that it would be more difficult to finish top ten with experts mixed in.

To clarify, this rule change proposes bumping novices into expert at year end based on their finishes in these classes, but allowing them to continue racing the classes under the existing rules, correct? Ie, a novice who can't make Saturday's Novice classes and races Sunday's Am classes all year (and finishes top 10) is bumped to expert at the end of the season. But can continue to run Am for the following year until meeting the top 5 expert bump? There is no bump out of Endurance (nor do I think there should be). I don't know that I would agree with applying the novice bump to Endurance, but maybe Amateur. Just trying to understand the proposal, thanks.

[CO750]

That could actually happen in less than 1 race weekend with a 2000 M/Y 600.

Well then is 9 a better # than 6 then? (since one could feasibly enter 8 races/weekend on a 2000 600)

I guess I'm trying to understand the objective you are trying to reach with this. To me, if someone comes in and is clearly fast enough to be running expert classes then why shouldn't they be given that opportunity. As of now they can petition to be moved up to expert ahead of "schedule", so why put a minimum race limit on it?

[T Baggins]

should this go to it's own topic heading so as not to confuse Mr. Brewer....?

[CO750]

Propose 2 new categories:

Middleweight Production
Open Production

The intent of this class is to reduce the ongoing costs of racing and bring close competition. As such only minimal modifications may be made to the motorcycle with the intention of making it track worthy. In the production class the stock ECU, Airbox, Air Filter and Exhaust system must remain in place.

I think this might limit your entries a bit. I don't know of any bike with the stock exhaust and air filter still on it. Even from potential street riders we are hoping to entice to race, most have changed these items already.

[gsnyder828]

That could actually happen in less than 1 race weekend with a 2000 M/Y 600.

Well then is 9 a better # than 6 then? (since one could feasibly enter 8 races/weekend on a 2000 600)

I guess I'm trying to understand the objective you are trying to reach with this. To me, if someone comes in and is clearly fast enough to be running expert classes then why shouldn't they be given that opportunity. As of now they can petition to be moved up to expert ahead of "schedule", so why put a minimum race limit on it?

I agree they should and that's the intent - in a backwards way perhaps. :lol:

The objective would be to clarify that you *can* move up very quickly (I'm not stuck on 1 weekend or 2... but there has to be time to assess the rider's skills). Right now it's unclear - and all advancement process verbiage is focused on end of year results, rather than encouraging strong novices to move to expert as soon as possible.

Perhaps the whole section needs a rewrite to clarify the intent.

I'd rather see more strong, competent novices move to expert sooner than add more novice classes to keep them there when the expert class they'd be joining only has a dozen or so entries.

[dirkterrell]

We began discussing this in the thread for Scott's "novice 2nd waves in SS/SB" proposal but I'll bring it here to make it official:

Eliminate Sportsman, Nov-U and Nov-O and replace them with Nov-A, Nov-B and Nov-C. Since lap times in the novice ranks tend to be determined by rider skill much more so than bike displacement, the idea is to restructure the novice classes to better reflect that situation.

1) Nov-A and Nov-B would have fastest lap limits like Sportsman currently does so that the slowest riders would be in Nov-A, faster ones in Nov-B and the fastest in Nov-C. Slower riders could ride up if they wanted to. The lap time limits would be decided by MRA officials.

2) Superbike rules with no displacement limits. Removing the displacement limit means that riders of larger displacement bikes now have more racing options.

The fastest riders now have only one novice class to race in but if Scott's proposal is accepted, these riders would ride in the novice 2nd waves of the SS/SB races. This proposal thus has the advantage of encouraging the fastest novice riders to move up to expert.

Here is the discussion thread for this item.

Dirk[/url]

[Desmodromico]

I have one but it is probably a bit self-serving as I hope to someday have an 848...I know an 848 could be a monster but the stock bike isn't pushing much more than a 749R.

SuperTwins GTU

• Up to 850 cc two cylinder, four stroke

• Up to 125cc single cylinder two stroke

• Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled

• Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke.

[rybo]

Class limits- Currently reads

2.2.3 Class Displacement and Configuration Limits
A. Middleweight Supersport
• Up to 600cc four cylinder
• Up to 650cc pre-1984 four cylinder
• Up to 750cc two or three cylinder
• Up to 904cc, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
• Unlimited displacement pushrod, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled


Change to:

2.2.3 Class Displacement and Configuration Limits
A. Middleweight Supersport
• Up to 600cc four cylinder
• Up to 650cc pre-1984 four cylinder
• Up to 850cc two or three cylinder
• Up to 904cc, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
• Unlimited displacement pushrod, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled


To allow the ducati 848 in supersport and align it with our other GTU classes with 4 cylinder bikes. Superbike, Novice GTU and Amateur GTU all allow the 848 already.

[hcr25]

So should the 848 be legal for both ST GTU and MW SS?

[rybo]

I think it should for sure be legal in MW SS, I'm on the fence about ST GTU mostly because it essentially puts an end to any hope that a mildly tuned SV could be competitive there.

There are many more SV's in this world than 848's and I would like to see some classes in the MRA where a SV could do well. Currently

LW GP - SV killed by TZ (unless you're moham)
ST GTU - SV killed by 749R (unless your moham)
Nov U - SV killed by 600's
and so on.

[mbohn]

I have one but it is probably a bit self-serving as I hope to someday have an 848...I know an 848 could be a monster but the stock bike isn't pushing much more than a 749R.

SuperTwins GTU

• Up to 850 cc two cylinder, four stroke

• Up to 125cc single cylinder two stroke

• Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled

• Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke.

This allows the 749R/848 engine used in Larry Pegram and Marty Cragill's AMA FX bike (and currently ridden by Skip Meador in StO) to be run in StU. Is that your intention? I think that bike is a whole different animal than the Ducati 848. All the guys that bought 749R last year would then need to open them out to 848 cc to be competitive. So, last year's Nuclear Arms Race in StO moves down to StU.

[froth]

LW GP - SV killed by TZ (unless you're moham)
ST GTU - SV killed by 749R (unless your moham)


From my perspective, Mr. M. is helping keep it alive, by showing what the SV can do when ridden well. He borrowed Lincoln's SV last year or the year before, and did well, and it was a stock motor.

[Desmodromico]

I have one but it is probably a bit self-serving as I hope to someday have an 848...I know an 848 could be a monster but the stock bike isn't pushing much more than a 749R.

SuperTwins GTU

• Up to 850 cc two cylinder, four stroke

• Up to 125cc single cylinder two stroke

• Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled

• Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke.

This allows the 749R/848 engine used in Larry Pegram and Marty Cragill's AMA FX bike (and currently ridden by Skip Meador in StO) to be run in StU. Is that your intention? I think that bike is a whole different animal than the Ducati 848. All the guys that bought 749R last year would then need to open them out to 848 cc to be competitive. So, last year's Nuclear Arms Race in StO moves down to StU.

Mark, I totally get what you mean however the 848 would get trounced in the StGTO as much as it would have an advantage over the SV's. It is kind of a tweener unfortunately, however it is also Ducati's fastest selling bike ever and like I said for selfish reasons I would like to see it legal for StU. I definitely agree with Scott to make it MWSS legal, though even a 1098 wouldn't make me as fast as those guys!

[rybo]

Add:

A rule stating that in order to score points in a class you must complete race distance.

This keeps people who crash from scoring points in a class (disincentive for crashing) and prevents the obligatory 1 lap ride at the end of the season.

It could be worded as follows:

7.2.1 Finish Position
A. To qualify for a finish position a rider must start the race with the green flag/light or start while the race is in progress.
B. Any rider who does not complete the full race distance for any reason will be awarded a finish position based on the distance they completed.
C. Any rider who is on the grid but does not start the race or join the race in progress will be scored as a DNS at the bottom of the results in the same order as their original grid positions.
D. If the rider does not qualify for a finish position, that rider will not receive points for that race.
E. If the rider starts, but does not finish the race no points will be awarded to that rider

[marty]

Add:

A rule stating that in order to score points in a class you must complete race distance.

This keeps people who crash from scoring points in a class (disincentive for crashing) and prevents the obligatory 1 lap ride at the end of the season.

It could be worded as follows:

7.2.1 Finish Position
A. To qualify for a finish position a rider must start the race with the green flag/light or start while the race is in progress.
B. Any rider who does not complete the full race distance for any reason will be awarded a finish position based on the distance they completed.
C. Any rider who is on the grid but does not start the race or join the race in progress will be scored as a DNS at the bottom of the results in the same order as their original grid positions.
D. If the rider does not qualify for a finish position, that rider will not receive points for that race.
E. If the rider starts, but does not finish the race no points will be awarded to that rider

what about the guy who gets crashed into who was not the fault of the crash

[chrobis]

Novice Hours / Community Service

I will be the first to admit that this is not at all a new proposal.

***************
Delete 4.5.D,E,F,G:
***************

D. All riders who begin the season as a Novice must complete 4 hours of community service to the club that season. Novice riders must complete 4 hours of service before being upgraded to expert. Failure to complete the service will result in the forfeiture of all points and standings for the season in all classes in which the rider has competed.

E. For the purposes of this section ‘community service’ may include but not be confined to scorekeeping, cornerworking or any other service as defined by the Board.

F. The Board may waive the requirement of community service for a rider for extraordinary circumstances and by a majority vote of the Board.

G. Point calculations for the purposes of advancing to expert (Section 4.3) will be applied prior to application of penalties due to failure to complete 4 hours of service to the club.


***************
Add:
***************

4.4.4.C Community Service

1. All riders who are not members of the MRA Board must either:

• a. Complete 4 hours of community service to the club each season, or
  b. Pay $25/hr to the club for each partial hour not worked.

Failure to comply with one of the above conditions will result in the forfeiture of all points and standings for the season in all classes in which the rider has competed.

2. The period for Community Service begins the day after the previous season's last race, and continues through the end of the current season's last race weekend.

3. Fullfillment of the Community Service requirement will be tracked on the MRA website for all riders, indicating both 'if' and 'how' the requirement has been completed, (i.e., 'Board Member', 'waived', 'x hours / y dollars').

4. For the purposes of this section ‘community service’ may include but not be confined to scorekeeping, cornerworking, race school instruction, bike night events, or any other service as defined by the Board.

• a. Riders must have prior consent of any responsible Board member in order to fullfill their Community Service in such capacity. (This is geared towards cornerworking and PR events.)

5. The Board may waive the requirement of community service for a rider for extraordinary circumstances and by a majority vote of the Board.

6. For Novices, point calculations for the purposes of advancing to expert (Section 4.3) will be applied prior to application of penalties due to failure to complete 4 hours of service to the club.


************************************


I have wanted to propose a rule change like this for several years, but felt that unless I did it as an Expert, that it would be discounted as the whinings of a Novice. The events of this year have forced my hand, and not by encouraging me to petition for Expert status - that is a completely separate debate.

Our financial difficulties this year poignantly illustrated two related facts: 1) The club can really use a significant level of volunteer service, and 2) a lot of people - both Novice and Expert - were happy to step up to the challenge. On a related note, this year's $50 buyout option created the rather bizarre side effect of in essence making the turnkey Novice race license $50 more expensive than the turnkey Expert license. WTF!

The gross effect of what I am proposing would add up to a total of 1200 hours of volunteer service hours, or $30000 to the club's bank account, (or some ratio of the two), for the approximately 300 racers we had this year, assuming that they all cared about points or standings. (Racers that didn't compete during the season could ignore this requirement without repercussion.) The net effect is harder to quantify, given that all we have tracked up until now is the efforts that Novices make toward their requirement - not what Experts have contributed, nor what Novices have contributed beyond their 4 hour requirement.

I've proposed a doubling of this year's buyout price because I think it should be more expensive than that to buy a clear conscience. The club could do a lot with the equivalent of a part time employee, (granted that administration would be a required but hidden cost), and any money that this brought in could go a very long way in covering PR costs.

Tracking riders' fullfillment on the MRA website would grant recognition to those who contribute the most, (and least), and could ultimately conclude with an annual award.

[dave.gallant]

As I do every year, I suggest the following modificatoin:

SuperTwins GTU

• Up to 700cc two cylinder, four stroke
• Up to 125cc single cylinder two stroke
• Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
• Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke.

[dragos13]

Add:

A rule stating that in order to score points in a class you must complete race distance.

This keeps people who crash from scoring points in a class (disincentive for crashing) and prevents the obligatory 1 lap ride at the end of the season.

It could be worded as follows:

7.2.1 Finish Position
A. To qualify for a finish position a rider must start the race with the green flag/light or start while the race is in progress.
B. Any rider who does not complete the full race distance for any reason will be awarded a finish position based on the distance they completed.
C. Any rider who is on the grid but does not start the race or join the race in progress will be scored as a DNS at the bottom of the results in the same order as their original grid positions.
D. If the rider does not qualify for a finish position, that rider will not receive points for that race.
E. If the rider starts, but does not finish the race no points will be awarded to that rider

what about the guy who gets crashed into who was not the fault of the crash

Yeah I have a big issue about the wording and idea behind this. I have seen riders and personally been involved in crashes that were not my fault. Now you are saying that I would get 0 points? I always thought "crashing" was a disincentive of itself...

I also want to ask about the idea of doing 1 lap on someone elses bike, just to get "some" points and hopefully a shot at keeping a top 5 championship. With this rule, if I was going to borrow a bike now I must complete the entire race? I borrowed Eriks bike once, it was for MWSS and his novice class was following right behind. I did one lap so that I could get his bike back to him, and he could get ready for his race, make sure the bike is fueled, let the brakes cool down, etc. Just my opinion.

[CO750]

Add:

A rule stating that in order to score points in a class you must complete race distance.

This keeps people who crash from scoring points in a class (disincentive for crashing) and prevents the obligatory 1 lap ride at the end of the season.

It could be worded as follows:

7.2.1 Finish Position
A. To qualify for a finish position a rider must start the race with the green flag/light or start while the race is in progress.
B. Any rider who does not complete the full race distance for any reason will be awarded a finish position based on the distance they completed.
C. Any rider who is on the grid but does not start the race or join the race in progress will be scored as a DNS at the bottom of the results in the same order as their original grid positions.
D. If the rider does not qualify for a finish position, that rider will not receive points for that race.
E. If the rider starts, but does not finish the race no points will be awarded to that rider

What is the purpose for further penalizing someone who crashes? They are already going to finish near the end of the standings. I understand we want to promote safety, but lets face it, this is racing not a track day. Even Rossi crashes from time to time and some times it's not even your fault. Plus you have to account for people who might have a mechanical reason for not finishing.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

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