Qualifying to help bring up entry.

[benfoxmra95]

Having had the experience of generating grids for the USGPRU this season, I will say that it is not within the reach of our club at this time.

Not within reach?

Scoring for all races used to be done by hand with groups of score keepers. No transponders. They'd score and get the results posted the same day for multiple class grids.

It may be hard at first. but so what? if it has the potential to generate revenue from race entrys from non active race license holders and a mojority of people that are current race license holders are keen on the idea, then I think it's something that shouldn't be dismissed so quickly becuase it may be a PITA.

Im sure we can get novices to help the process, or even appoint another scoring person full time in the office to help with this. Im sure somebody out there would volunteer there time to get it rolling till it was a smooth process.

If Im free I'll come out and help set grid positions.

[Scored51]

Having had the experience of generating grids for the USGPRU this season, I will say that it is not within the reach of our club at this time.

Care to expand on that? Is it a technical limitation?

In my original post I did list out a number of hurdles to overcome, but scrapped it for the more concise version I actually posted. Yes, there is a serious issue with the software that does not allow it to readily process a single competitor riding multiple bikes, in an unlimited number of races. I've had discussions in the past with AMB-it about the issue and specifically how to correct it. This shortfall also limits the functionality of the software in other areas I'd like to automate. For example, the class track records must be processed manually (which is why there are always seem to be errors) when the current version of the software already has the facility to automatically track them and notify when a record has been broken. However, the limitation is one rider must ride only one bike in one race.

[elvis8310@hotmail.com]

Ok, so the problem would then be needing a transponder for each bike you ride. I know in Europe when I races 3 classes on one bike it worked but when I had 2 bikes I had to have 2 transponders(rented from racing body). My questions is the software the problem or not having the right software? I know if there is software available and it has to be bought then lets buy it, if we need someone to do it or get donations to buy it. I would help out for sure if it is a money issue.

[Munch]

What format is the data that AMB provides? Excel? CSV? Something proprietary?

If I can get a sampling of the data collected in a usuable format, I'm pretty certain I can automate the gridding process.

[Wild Cheetah 612]

I'm not a big fan of it simply because I like to use practice to...uh...practice. You know, the fundamentals like form and body position, get my brain focusing, and test out new things on the bike and and in general make sure all is good.
It's also a great time to help new riders get to know a track or help them to improve their riding. A smooth and consistent racer generally turns out to be a fast and safe racer.

[DOUBLE A]

what about a system that incorporated both??? like points & qualify times mixed into how the grid is set.....that way the guys in the back that don't have any points at all are not grided in front of guys that can run in the top 15 time wise?

[glenngsxr]

Having had the experience of generating grids for the USGPRU this season, I will say that it is not within the reach of our club at this time.

Not within reach?

Scoring for all races used to be done by hand with groups of score keepers. No transponders. They'd score and get the results posted the same day for multiple class grids.

It may be hard at first. but so what? if it has the potential to generate revenue from race entrys from non active race license holders and a mojority of people that are current race license holders are keen on the idea, then I think it's something that shouldn't be dismissed so quickly becuase it may be a PITA.

Im sure we can get novices to help the process, or even appoint another scoring person full time in the office to help with this. Im sure somebody out there would volunteer there time to get it rolling till it was a smooth process.

If Im free I'll come out and help set grid positions.

Agree 100% Ben. I would be willing to come in to the raceday office and help set grids.

To your point Chris, I guess to do one transponder for multiple bikes we would have to go by the honor system and have each rider come in and tell us which bike they put each fast time one. There are only a few of those folks anyways right? glenn #62

[cactusjack]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!

I don't know if it's feasible to introduce this rule change this season, but regardless of when it can be implemented, I love the idea.

Do we have any database gurus out there (probably don't even need SQL, can make it work using the MS Access GUI)? I imagine that if AMB times can be exported to a database, some sort of creative linking of databases can be used to generate grids just about automatically (a master dbase containing everyone's best lap time for the day, and a dbase for each race that "pulls" the best lap time for each person participating in that race).

Chris - would it make it easier to implement this if the lunch period were lengthened?

[Scored51]

Not within reach?

Scoring for all races used to be done by hand with groups of score keepers. No transponders. They'd score and get the results posted the same day for multiple class grids.

Im sure somebody out there would volunteer there time to get it rolling till it was a smooth process.

Ben, you seem to have forgotten who the head scorekeeper was before the arrival of the transponders. However, qualifying has nothing to do with manual score keeping, unless you intend to hire a team of scorers to work the sessions with stop watches.

Things weren't all that great back in the day as I remember trying to score a three lap heat race for ROR. Even with more than six experienced score keepers, the results were so poor that we had to stop the race day, call a riders meeting, and have all those in the heat race physically line up in the order they thought they finished in. Once that was agreed upon, only then was the grid able to be set (again lap times had nothing to do with it). I also remember sitting in the race day office Second Creek at 9:30pm on a Sunday night still trying to figure out race results with the club's secretary.

The main issue with the software is that in its current state it will not perform the tasks qualifying asks of it in an integrated and efficient manner to keep the race day running as smoothly as it presently does. As Americans have been able to land on the moon with little more than slide rules for calculators, so of course it can be done. However, the cost of having AMB-it make changes to their proprietary program would cost this club more money than it doesn't have. So I defer back to my original statement.

If I'm free I'll come out and help set grid positions.

I commend the sentiment, but "If I'm free" doesn't keep things running smoothly. It would be a full time position to integrate, process, deliver, and post the grids. Furthermore, the efficiency would only come with practice as does a successful score keeper. There would have to be a firm commitment to the task for the entire season.

For these and other logistical reasons, I don't believe it's possible with the amount of resources available to the club at the moment unless I'm reading something wrong on the revenue/expense sheet passed around at the last general meeting.

[oldtimer]

I'm less for this idea because I've been making every race specifically because I want to do well in the championships. It's a motivator for me to show up and make the grid.

I also am not crazy about turning a practice session into an additional race, cause that's what it will be if we have to grid based on times. So I won't be "practicing" I'll be racing in open combined novice practice? Sounds like a cluster. :shock:

[cjmagnuss]

i would love to have a qualifying session.

[benfoxmra95]

It saddens me to see that we've become such a "point and click" type culture.

There a way to do it. It might be all manual labor but it could happen.

Let me put it this way if 20 non active racers said they'd come back if they had a chance at decent starting positions what would be the answer to this "not within reach scenario".

An extra 20 or 30 racers appears to be what we need. Right?

[PremiumBlend]

There would be obvious challenges to getting everyone gridded with a qualifying type program - simply because the current system AUTOMATICALLY grids you up based on current points. It would take considerably more effort/time to pore over the lap times and grid everyone up like that. It would have to be done manually, unless the AMB timing system could do it...

I'm not saying "don't do it" or "it can't be done" - I'm just pointing out the operational shortcomings of the current system.

"IF" we were to go to qualifying - why not simply take the BEST lap from all sessions?? What if you do well in your first session, break your bike in the second, and miss "qualifying" because you're fixing your bike in the 3rd session?

I can create an excel spreadsheet that will automatically place each rider accordingly to their lap times. If the rider DOES not participate in the "qualifying" laps that rider will be placed at the 1st available grid AFTER the last guy who DID run the "qualifying" laps according to his the points he has accumulated and so on and so forth for every rider.

It would take about 10 or 15 minutes to put everyone into the spreadsheet so it will grid them accordingly.

[PremiumBlend]

I'm less for this idea because I've been making every race specifically because I want to do well in the championships. It's a motivator for me to show up and make the grid.

I also am not crazy about turning a practice session into an additional race, cause that's what it will be if we have to grid based on times. So I won't be "practicing" I'll be racing in open combined novice practice? Sounds like a cluster. :shock:

I see your idea and quite frankly I think in the CHAMPIONSHIPS should be gridded according to points so that you reap the benefit of showing up to every race and accumulating those points. I would think this would be the best of both worlds b/c then it creates competition on every level.

If a racer grids higher b/c he had a faster qualifying time during the season well thats fine, let him, b/c if that same guy only races 4 rounds he will not have enough points to get a good grid in the Championships.

[Wild Cheetah 612]

+1

[James W]

I like it Ben, lets try it out at the next round. I would be available to help also

[Scored51]

It saddens me to see that we've become such a "point and click" type culture.

There a way to do it. It might be all manual labor but it could happen.

Let me put it this way if 20 non active racers said they'd come back if they had a chance at decent starting positions what would be the answer to this "not within reach scenario".

An extra 20 or 30 racers appears to be what we need. Right?

I have to disagree with your sentiment as our "point and click" approach to the task of timing. The scoring system has provided club members with far more information with regards to lap times, class track records, and more accurate results in a more timely manner than was ever present prior to the technology's arrival. Most of the time results are now posted even before racers can literally dismount their bike and get into the race day office. All of this is being accomplished with far less manpower that was never volunteer. Further financial savings to the club.

I've spent quite a lot of time thinking about this over the past three years because it isn't the first time it's been suggested. If I thought there was a solution that could implement a qualifying setup in the short term at a low cost I would be all over it. I believe it is an idea that would generate more interest in racing. Especially with the Novices who see themselves as fast but are stuck in the second wave due to our current gridding procedure.

It would take about 10 or 15 minutes to put everyone into the spreadsheet so it will grid them accordingly.

I already have the ability to accomplish this by exporting through .CSV files etc, but the timing system cannot make class distinctions when a rider enters more than one race. Therefore we have two options:

If we do not have a separate qualifying session for every grid to be set based on a qualifying time, the grids would for every rider would be based on his/her fastest lap on their fastest bike. This means on Sunday, I will be qualifying for Colorado Class on a near 100 hp Honda F2 that will also be running in Mod Vin GTU. The regulars in the class may not be afraid, but the F2 isn't legal for the class so why should I be gridded based upon my lap times on it?

If we arranged to have separate qualifying sessions for each race, each qualifying session (assume 15 minutes) would take as much time (most longer) than the race itself. Therefore, we would trade 2 hours of practice Sunday morning for 3 hours and 15 minutes of qualifying. What's even more interesting about this scenario is that someone will be qualifying between 8:00 and 8:15! Super Twins GTO is first race on the schedule. "How 'bout dem big purty Ducs on a cold track?

I will certainly put every effort forward to make this happen if it is what the club wants, and I'll continue to post overly long messages to the forums regarding the details of the process for everyone willing to read them. I enjoy improving the process and and the product that is presented to the club members because I'm one them too.

[froth]

Chris, wake up. We are supposed to take the trees we felled yesterday to the dollection point, quick staying up so late :lol:

[oldtimer]

Ben I want to ask, what club were you thinking of that is using qualifying sessions to grid? Or that doesn't care about their championships? I don't know of any, all the clubs I can think of WERA CCS USBA SMRI CMRA, use the points system to grid and their racers do care about the championships.

The qualifying sessions I know of are the AMA. But that's always per class, broken out into groups so not everyone is crowding the track during fast qualifying sessions. Qualifying sessions are not practice, it's an all out sprint, and the times are as fast or faster than race times. It's what qualifier tires are made for. 8)

Is that what we're talking about for MRA club racing?

[Snowman]

Havening racers grid by the number of points only lets those with large racing budgets who can make every race have a chance at a podium. Fast guys without large racing budgets will never generate the points necessary to grid up front for a chance at a podium, which would be their goal because they are not racing for a championship. Most race to win the day they race.

Having faster guys fighting their way through slower racers ahead of them seems to be a unnecessary risk to be taking, especially with a standing start.

Having said that, I can understand the limitation of software timing programs may not give grid information in a timely manner for racers to figure out where they are starting. But this is simply a matter of working out some way of doing this. Maybe its time for a new timing system with this capability? (Insert fund raiser here)

It sounds like this AMB system can produce a list of lap times per bike number/rider name. At worst we can get one of the many computer geeks in this club to program a way to do this quickly.

As far as multiple bikes with a single rider, have a different transponder for each bike. If you have the kind of budget to have multiple bikes, you obviously can afford transponders for each, at least the money to rent more than one. It would mean if you want to grid you have to run at least one lap on every bike you intend to race during pratice.

With the spacing most racers give other racers during practice, the lap times during practice are typically faster than during a race, for most racers. (this is the case in other racing orgs I have reaced with) Having not to contend with traffic and the fact practice is broken down to slow medium and fast riders, not by classes means there is far less of a chance of multiple rider accidents.

This sport is dangerous enough as it is, without forcing faster racers behind slow ones creating an unnecessary risk we should not be taking. After all this is just club racing, and we all have weekday jobs we have to go back to.

[racer316]

With the spacing most racers give other racers during practice, the lap times during practice are typically faster than during a race, for most racers. (this is the case in other racing orgs I have reaced with) Having not to contend with traffic and the fact practice is broken down to slow medium and fast riders, not by classes means there is far less of a chance of multiple rider accidents.

This sport is dangerous enough as it is, without forcing faster racers behind slow ones creating an unnecessary risk we should not be taking. After all this is just club racing, and we all have weekday jobs we have to go back to.

I like this idea and would offer my time as a database programmer to help out. I do see some issues to overcome to make this work:

1. The current Combined Novice practice sessions. Trying to get 40+ novices on the track at one time to qualify (especially on a cold track) would be tricky and some would feel 'balked' by the slower riders. To make it safer there probably should be only novice slow, novice fast sessions.

Perhaps instead of 3 practice rounds on Saturday, only have 2:

SATURDAY QUALIFYING
Qualifying session # 1:
Novice Slow - 15 minutes
Novice Fast - 15 minutes
Expert Slow - 15 minutes
Expert Medium - 15 minutes
Expert Fast - 15 minutes

Qualifying session # 2:
Novice Slow - 24 minutes
Novice Fast - 24 minutes
Expert Slow - 24 minutes
Expert Medium - 24 minutes
Expert Fast - 24 minutes

SUNDAY QUALIFYING
Qualifying session # 1:
Expert Fast - 15 minutes
Expert Med/Slow - 15 minutes
Novice Fast - 15 minutes
Novice Slow - 15 minutes

Qualifying session # 2:
Expert Fast - 15 minutes
Expert Medium - 15 minutes
Expert Slow - 15 minutes
Novice Fast - 15 minutes
Novice Slow - 15 minutes

This utilizes the same amount of time as the existing practice schedule. Session #2 on Saturday gives plenty of time to tweak suspension, etc and get back out.

2) I also agree with 1 transponder for each bike. That is the only way to sort out the class issue.

3) Need to combine Saturday and Sunday sessions. Some racers don't come until Sunday so this seems the only fair way to do it.

4) Combine Sat/Sun/Endurance qualifying and just use the best time for those running the Endurance races. Best qualifying times would be used for Sunday races. This means they get an extra qualfying session but they paid for it!

Just a few issues to consider. Being a database guy, I think most issues can be worked out and in time it could be automated, efficient, and accurate.

Perhaps we could do a few dry runs (run the new system along with the current points system for rest of the season to work out the bugs) then implement the new system next year if the club so desires.

[benfoxmra95]

I have to disagree with your sentiment as our "point and click" approach to the task of timing. The scoring system has provided club members with far more information with regards to lap times, class track records, and more accurate results in a more timely manner than was ever present prior to the technology's arrival. Most of the time results are now posted even before racers can literally dismount their bike and get into the race day office. All of this is being accomplished with far less manpower that was never volunteer. Further financial savings to the club.

What I meant was, and this is not pointed at you. That we've become so dependent on the "script" that's put in front of us that when deviation or creativity is necessary, It becomes a huge roadblock.

I already have the ability to accomplish this by exporting through .CSV files etc, but the timing system cannot make class distinctions when a rider enters more than one race. Therefore we have two options:

If we do not have a separate qualifying session for every grid to be set based on a qualifying time, the grids would for every rider would be based on his/her fastest lap on their fastest bike. This means on Sunday, I will be qualifying for Colorado Class on a near 100 hp Honda F2 that will also be running in Mod Vin GTU. The regulars in the class may not be afraid, but the F2 isn't legal for the class so why should I be gridded based upon my lap times on it?

If we arranged to have separate qualifying sessions for each race, each qualifying session (assume 15 minutes) would take as much time (most longer) than the race itself. Therefore, we would trade 2 hours of practice Sunday morning for 3 hours and 15 minutes of qualifying. What's even more interesting about this scenario is that someone will be qualifying between 8:00 and 8:15! Super Twins GTO is first race on the schedule. "How 'bout dem big purty Ducs on a cold track?

Expert fast is the first class out on the track in the morning anyway? I don't see a problem with track temps at all.

So if we did this on saturday we run practice as normal, then at the end of day, start disecting the times and put rider #x's fastest time on his pre grid spot accordingly to the other riders in that class.

What happens if i don't practice saturday, well those few people who show up sun morn, then get slotted in per there last first session times on sunday morning that way there's enough time to work them in the grid.

Well gee ben that sucks becuase they had no time to warm up....too bad....it's more incentive to show up saturday and spend more money with the club.

I think we spend too much time practicing anways....the MRA used to be a two day event club. For that past several years its now been a 3 day weekend, if you dont show up and practice on friday then you were behind the 8 ball. And this adds a whole other layer of expense, one more day taken off work, one more day of burning gas and tires. One more deterrent for a rider that can't afford friday practice to say awww screw it, I can't ride on friday and won't get up to speed in just 3 practice sessions on saturday and the other guy in my class that can afford to practice for 900 days straight leading up to a race will have already riding all day friday.

For the guys with two bikes riding multiple classes then...... well maybe we could do sessions on saturday where it's a 600cc session, then a 750 session, and a 1000cc session, that way crash lowe's 1000cc times can't be mistaken for his 750cc times.

Wyeth, I understand your apprehension here completely. But as it sits here's my point:

the club needs "racer" entry's to keep the money flowing.

Specatators entrys just don't look like the solution given the amount that would have to show up.

We need to come up with some ideas to draw in racers. We dont have time to get "new" racers. A new riders school would be nice, but even if we had one how many new riders would be able to get there bikes race ready by the next race, not the 20-30 entrys we need right now.

There is an urgency here to bring a mra racer with a race license and race bike in his garage out of hibernation. And by urgency, i mean by the next race..... The clubs check book is in the red.... There's been money loaned to the club that has to be paid back....plus the club has to break even at very least on the next race weekend.

you need to give them an incentive to come out and pay the $200 entry fee.

I have not spent too much time looking but I haven't seen any other ideas to try and draw them out.

this may not be the best idea, but it's intriguing nevertheless, correct?

The only reason Im keeping after this is because maybe someone else after reading all this will have a "ah hah" moment and come up with another idea that's better and more easily implemented.???? who knows....im just kicking down the box we are in and trying to get us thinking out of it.

let's leave the "can't do" attitudes and our half empty glasses in lazy town.

[oldtimer]

I think something getting missed in this discussion is the incentive to show up every weekend. Qualifying would reward the racers who don't race very much. Gridding by points rewards the workhorses of the club who show up every weekend and pay the clubs bills by doing so, regardless of how fast they might be.

Personally I don't think this would be the right move to promote more of a turn out, if anything it encourages racers to show up less. My opinion on this idea. 8)

[benfoxmra95]

But the long haul points riders aren't supporting the club as it is.

The long haul riders will show regardless. They'll race shoppings carts if they have to...right?

[froth]

Just knocked the left front wheel out of balance on mine!