Rule Change Suggestions for 2009

[Clarkie]

So if a couple of manufacturers make DOT Rains (like MT-60R) why do we have to open up the rules to allow full rains? There's no rule that says you can't use two different manufacturer's tires. You guys with contracts have a problem - but us normal folks can pick whatever works best for the conditions.

And yet if we allow full rains EVERYONE will have a choice of rain tire, not just those who dont have a tire deal, and there are a lot of people in the paddock that have tire deals with Michelin/Dunlop/Pirelli/Bridgestone :wink:

I don't understand why allowing full rains would change that. People will still go slow and pull off early.

how do you know, people have never been able to use rains in a DOT race so at best it is speculation on your part

If I wanted to ride in a parade I would buy a v-twin.... (sorry Jim couldnt resist :lol: ) So if you are saying there wont be adifference between dot's and full rains in a rain race (that has been declared a 'wet race' by the track marshall), why not give us the choice of what tire we run?

There is a myth that rain tires are more expensive than any other tire and once they are used they are too be thrown away, my rain tires are a set Scott gave me that had a full Superbike race on them from Road America last year. Most racers that have a set of rains aren't worried about when they were built, buy one set and they are good for many years.

If you want to ride around at 80% in the wet there is less chance of crashing on rains compared to DOT's, crash damage can add up to a lot ore than a set of rain tires.

Obviously this can go round and round and both sides have good arguments, and it will be a good reason to turn up and vote at the rules meeting 8)

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

And yet if we allow full rains EVERYONE will have a choice of rain tire, not just those who dont have a tire deal, and there are a lot of people in the paddock that have tire deals with Michelin/Dunlop/Pirelli/Bridgestone :wink:

how do you know, people have never been able to use rains in a DOT race so at best it is speculation on your part

Ok, this is going to be rude, but since the MRA has shyed away from rain racing for years, most of our racers have never done it and thus likely not very good at it. So yes, it is speculation.

If I wanted to ride in a parade I would buy a v-twin.... (sorry Jim couldnt resist :lol: )

Oh, that stings!

Wait .. wasn't it you who talked me into that damn Ape thing in the first place!? :-k

There is a myth that rain tires are more expensive than any other tire and once they are used they are too be thrown away, my rain tires are a set Scott gave me that had a full Superbike race on them from Road America last year. Most racers that have a set of rains aren't worried about when they were built, buy one set and they are good for many years.

You're right. I had a set that I'd bought 3 years before using them. Then I used them 3 times (with other clubs) finally finishing them off during the 2nd Creek endurance. They were still working fine.

IMHO, rain racing is all about preparation (anti fog, RainX, waterproof glove & boot liners), riding technique, and patience. In club racing, it seem to be a race of attrition.

Obviously this can go round and round and both sides have good arguments, and it will be a good reason to turn up and vote at the rules meeting 8)

Mission accomplished.

[JimWilson29]

Addition to 2.4.1 Class Limits

5. RACE OF THE ROCKIES GTU
• If RoR GTU rider's lap times are not less than or equal to 115% of current class lap record for 3 consecutive laps, the rider can be black flagged. (This would be around 1:42 at Pueblo)

6. RACE OF THE ROCKIES GTO
• If RoR GTO rider's lap times are not less than or equal to 115% of current class lap record for 3 consecutive laps, the rider can be black flagged. (This would be around 1:39 at Pueblo)


It would be the Track Marshall's responsibility to visually identify a rider that could possibly be lapping too slow and creating a hazard and then check with timing for that rider's lap times.

[polar x]

Addition to 2.4.1 Class Limits

5. RACE OF THE ROCKIES GTU
• If RoR GTU rider's lap times are not less than or equal to 115% of current class lap record for 3 consecutive laps, the rider can be black flagged. (This would be around 1:42 at Pueblo)

6. RACE OF THE ROCKIES GTO
• If RoR GTO rider's lap times are not less than or equal to 115% of current class lap record for 3 consecutive laps, the rider can be black flagged. (This would be around 1:39 at Pueblo)


It would be the Track Marshall's responsibility to visually identify a rider that could possibly be lapping too slow and creating a hazard and then check with timing for that rider's lap times.

Better yet, have Chris, who is watching the times, tell the track marshal we have rider xxx lapping at 1.40 for 3 laps then the TM can make the call. Or he could be given cart blanch (sp?) and just tell Bob number xx needs to be meatballed and tell him his/her race is over.

[T Baggins]

I like the idea because it takes the whole "turning practice in to qualifying" out of the equation.

Post a maximum allowable lap time.
Allow anyone (who meets the other requirements) to enter.
If they lap too slow, for 3 laps in a row, they get meatballed.
No refunds, you knew the deal when you entered.

Pretty simple, no?

[Jon]

I'm all for a 10 minute qualifying session run in the morning first practice. Get the oil dry and ambulances ready! :lol:

[dimick27]

in addition to the maximum lap time proposal, i think there needs to be an exception somewhere in the rulebook when it comes to rider eligibility for the ROR classes.

how is it that the last race weekend i did at hastings, riders were able to compete in RORU that were nearly 10 seconds off pace, just because they have had atleast one year experience in the "expert" class. and the person that turned the fastest lap time of the whole race got DQd becasue of lack of "experience at the expert level" with the mra.

i completely understand the rule and think its a great rule to make sure inexperienced riders dont jump into a class thats out of their league becuase if they do it could put them and other riders in harms way. but there has to be some exceptions.

if the particular rider holds an AMA PRO LICENSE in one or more different racing disciplines, if lap times are competitive, if the rider is not riding over their head to keep up... these are all things that can be taken into consideration and be decided by the board at the race.

for example, i just got back from racing at miller with MOM and like the MRA, MOM has a money paying expert class called KOM with a similar rule. when i asked them about sign up they took everything into consideration and said they couldnt make a call until they saw my lap times and riding...

with all the racing background that the MRA has on the board i think they could very easily make a smart/saffe decision on whether or not a rider is capable of competing in that class.

plus dont the same 20 guys that compete in mwss and mwsb comete in roru? the only difference is the money factor and more laps. if the rider is capable of riding the class i say let them. its more money for the mra and more money for other riders if he/she doesnt do well.

just my two cents, in no way shape or form am i mad about the situation im just giving my opinion. after all i did bring it upon myself by signing up when i knew it was a nono :lol: i just think it would be good for more up and coming riders or out of state guys for next year.

wording it in the rule book would be kinda tricky but you guys are the experts and im sure you could come up with something good!

see yall at ppir!

[motobum]

if the particular rider holds an AMA PRO LICENSE in one or more different racing disciplines, if lap times are competitive, if the rider is not riding over their head to keep up... these are all things that can be taken into consideration and be decided by the board at the race.

mmm... wonder who your talking about

[polar x]

Jims rule suggestion makes the most since, it puts the policing of riders times on the rider and not the club to make room for qualifiers. You, the rider, will know what you are capable of before entering and paying extra to run it. The Mra just oversees your times and boots your ass if you are outside the times. Like Tony said, you knew the rules before you entered and paid to play. so sorry too bad.

Running qualifiers takes up more time in the day that we don't have so this is pretty fair and straight across the board.

[dimick27]

chris i understand i "paid to play" i wasnt complaining at all i knew what the risk was. like i said i put it upon myself... im just saying for future references.

i didnt read the whole forum so i didnt catch jims suggestion so ill go back and look at that, maybe i jumped the gun a little my bad.

[polar x]

chris i understand i "paid to play" i wasnt complaining at all i knew what the risk was. like i said i put it upon myself... im just saying for future references.

i didnt read the whole forum so i didnt catch jims suggestion so ill go back and look at that, maybe i jumped the gun a little my bad.

Was'nt directed at you. sorry if you took it that way. I was in the same situation my first year as a expert and got booted for the last two races.

I was just saying how I thought it would be better and why. I cast no stones in this house. :lol: :lol:

[dimick27]

ya my i didnt read the whole forum so i took it the wrong way. but i def agree with both jims and tonys ideas!

[froth]

Not to throw a wrench in here, but, here's a question.

If while running RORO, and getting meatballed out, would a rider still get payout if getting meatballed out resulted in say, am 11th place finish? Or, if meatballed out, and a faster rider goes down, can the meatballed rider come back in. After all, the slower rider didn't biff? Just curious.

[Scored51]

Just catching up with this so here are my thought on a class I'll never run. I could certainly monitor the lap times and pull whoever isn't running fast enough. However, running a 1:40 around Pueblo in ROR would just get you lapped at the end of a fourteen lap race. If this is the case, we could just pull lapped riders as done in bicycle racing. Of course the other option is to use one of the fast practice sessions on Sunday morning as a qualifier. Maybe not to set the grid, but to remove anyone unable to keep up with the pace that will be set.

The other thought I had was that if the eligibility rule was changed to remove the required one year as an expert with the MRA it would open the door to any and all of the contingency hunters. Meaning MRA money (and points towards the number one plate) would be leaving the MRA.

Hope this helps,

[Clarkie]

lappers are part of the game, and i think it is a bad idea to pull people from the race. As one of the 'fast guys' I have never had a problem with any lappers riding out of control, usually everyone is just out there doing their own thing and riding in control, well except for that Jim Brewer guy, he is a pain in the ass

If you start restricting who can enter (or finish) the ROR races you will have less people enter and the grids will shrink. Racers get faster by following faster racers, so if people want to pay to enter ROR (remember the club needs all the money it can get right now) let them race.

[polar x]

lappers are part of the game, and i think it is a bad idea to pull people from the race. As one of the 'fast guys' I have never had a problem with any lappers riding out of control, usually everyone is just out there doing their own thing and riding in control, well except for that Jim Brewer guy, he is a pain in the ass

If you start restricting who can enter (or finish) the ROR races you will have less people enter and the grids will shrink. Racers get faster by following faster racers, so if people want to pay to enter ROR (remember the club needs all the money it can get right now) let them race.

Though I agree with most of your post, the fact remains that if you are getting lapped within the first half of the race by the top 8-10 guys then you probably are not going to learn much from the faster guys. There comes a point where the closure speeds are so drastic that it does become a safety issue. Atleast in my eye. But I don't have that much experience so I might be acting like a big wuss.

[JWinter]

Oops, I meant to put this in this thread but pushed the wrong button and ended up making a new thread (I am technologically challenged).

2.4.1 Grand prix motorcycle class limits

Current STGTU limits:
Up to 750 cc twin cylinder, four stroke
up to 125 cc single cylinder, two stroke
Unlimited displacement, two cylinder, two valve, air cooled

Add:
Unlimited displacement single cylinder, four stroke

My four stroke single competes against 99% of the bikes in this class in the LWGP class anyway. Plus it will help keep the grid filled for contingency as well.

[rybo]

Modern Vintage Rules - I'd like to propose a change that would allow a few more bikes into the class while not really affecting the purpose of the rule. I don't have the exact wording, but the case that comes to mind is the 1999 R6. 99-02 bikes have the exact same frame and engine cases, so there is no reason one could garner an advantage by running an 02 model vs. a 99.

Current:

2.5.1 Requirements

Modern Vintage motorcycles must use a frame and engine case 10 years old or older, as determined by manufacturer’s model year. For 2008, the model year must be 1998 or prior.

Revised

2.5.1 Requirements

Modern Vintage motorcycles must use a frame and engine case 10 years old or older, as determined by manufacturer’s model year. For 2009, the model year must be 1999 or prior. An exception will be made for motorcycles that are mechanically identical to the 10 year old model, allowing them into the class.

[/i][/u]

[Lel399]

1) I propose the creation of a 'Rules committee' that consists of 3 NON board members and 2 board members.

The purpose of the the rules committee will be to adjust or amend rules MID YEAR if an issue arises that is found to be antiquated or obsolete so we dont have to 'wait until the end of the years rules change process' as we do now. All other professional or amatuer organizations I ahve been a part of (outside or including roadracing) have some sort of rules process that can be adjusted mid year.

The purpose of a 3 non board member, 2 board member is that it is still goverened by the board, but the 'riders' have the final say. The riders must be active racing members, and could either be nominated in the beginning of the year (10 people for the 3 person slot in case either 1) there is a conflict of interest or 2) people cant always participate) or in the case of an immediate action, the 3 riders could be drawn out of a hat from the ama release slips for riders that were at the weekend until 3 are found that want to participate and do not have a conflict of interest.

Addendums to the rules would be available at sign in each weekend, and would be announeced at the riders meetings the first weekend after a change.


2) Final grids - Final grids will not be posted or considered 'final' until after the first round of the second round of morning practices... (ie on sunday, they would be final after the conclusion of expert fast for the SECOND time) this gives people time to do their first practice, without worrying about tryting to check grids before their first round of practice, and creates a consistant time when they are posted.

On saturday, it would be after the conclusion of the 2nd round of 'novice combined' the grids would be final.

They do not have to be final at that time, but they will not be final prior to the above posted time.

[benfoxmra95]

Spec fuel proposal:

All classes with the exception of ROR GTO/open superbike and two stroke motorcycles are limited to no more than 91 oct and the specific gravity of pump fuel from local gas stations.



This is a little vague but we can hash out the details of this in the rules meeting.

[Scored51]

Wow, that would also control the costs of engine builds because you wouldn't be able to built compression past the limit of 91 octane (keeping even more costs down). However, the exception list wouldn't sit well with riders in the small displacement classes (lightweight & middleweight endurance, lightweight grandprix, colorado class, modern vintage GTU & GTO, lightweight grand prix, novice GTU & GTO, amateur GTU & GTO, and middleweight superbike) where two strokes run with non-exempt bikes. If all superbike, ROR, and grand prix classes were exempt, it would only affect experts running super sport classes.

Hmmm...

[polar x]

Change SEC 13
original reads
A: Unless penalties are otherwise expressly provided for in this rule book, MRA Officials may disqualify or suspend any rider for the remainder of the event for any violation of the rules of competition, insubordination, or any other conduct detrimental to the event. In addition, fines ranging from $25 to $1,000 may be levied. Fined riders are barred from further competition pending payment of the fine, unless there is an appeal in process.

To read


A: It is the sole discreation of the VP of TECH to disqualify, dock laps for said race OR suspend any rider for the remainder of the event OR year for any violation of the rules of competition. Any MRA Official may disqualify or suspend any rider for the remainder of the event or year for insubordination, or any other conduct detrimental to the event. In addition, fines ranging from $25 to $1,000 may be levied. Fined riders are barred from further competition pending payment of the fine, unless there is an appeal in process.

This rule will supersede all previous rules and any conflicting rules.


Or something to the that effect. Basically it needs to give the VP broader ability to punish without being so harsh.

[benfoxmra95]

lappers are part of the game, and i think it is a bad idea to pull people from the race. As one of the 'fast guys' I have never had a problem with any lappers riding out of control, usually everyone is just out there doing their own thing and riding in control, well except for that Jim Brewer guy, he is a pain in the ass

If you start restricting who can enter (or finish) the ROR races you will have less people enter and the grids will shrink. Racers get faster by following faster racers, so if people want to pay to enter ROR (remember the club needs all the money it can get right now) let them race.

Though I agree with most of your post, the fact remains that if you are getting lapped within the first half of the race by the top 8-10 guys then you probably are not going to learn much from the faster guys. There comes a point where the closure speeds are so drastic that it does become a safety issue. Atleast in my eye. But I don't have that much experience so I might be acting like a big wuss.

I'll try to keep this short as i don't think this thread is the place for the debate but only rule change suggestions:

this rule proposed by jim about being within 115% of the lap record was something I had cooking up in my mind as well, but my suggestion was going to have a few more teeth, I actually wanted to submit a rule that said if your practice lap time or race times were'nt within 108% of the lap record your were done.

Well today the light bulb came on and I realized that my rule and jims rule can come back and bite us in the ass, here's how:

Average joe racer is at pueblo and he blows a rod out the side of his 198 hp superbike gsxr 1000 with a 8mm stroker crank and titanium rods, 18mm lift cams with this really sick cam timing 85/98, 36mm intake valves, special kit crank with no markings and there's just titanium parts scattered all the way from turn 1 brake marker 1 to turn 2 entrance.... and he's in the points chase for 7th or something like that.

after sobbing like a 16 year old girl on prom night he borrows a gsxr 750 from someone and it's a 2001 crapped out turd that barely makes 112 hp....

anyways i've digressed, you see what Im saying. you get a average joe racer who's within 2 seconds of the bubble but still fast enough to be in it and then he's screwed becuse he can't ride someone elses bike for darn. that's were this rule could bite some veterans in the behind, because there's been a lot of bike borrowing this year.


I suggest that we put the new rider director in charge of more closely monitoring the progress of "expert" riders and maybe coaching them and or helping them with their decisions as to whether or not they should be riding in the big class.

I personnally think the line has to be drawn somewhere, I mean you can't enter an ama race unless you can show your within a reasonable amount of time from the leaders, they do it for reason.

and coonshead is right, you learn nothing by riding with fast riders when they are gone within one turn of passing you.

[polar x]

=D> 8)

[froth]

Ben: one thing to think about. AMA is big money, and although we do have a few folks who actually don't have huge dollars going outbound on a race weekend, most of us will never get rich (or even very lower middle class) on what we bring in on a weekend.

If someone wants to pony up the dough, I think letting them spend it with us is the way to go. There will be a suggestion coming for a modification of an existing class which may make the club a small bit more money while having a very fun mix of bikes.

While I was laughingly thinking of running "mighty thundar" in RORU next year, I know I'd get smoked, to put it mildly. However, if someone wants to pony up the bucks, I think if they are basically qualifies, they should be allowed to run. If I pays my moneys, and gets my chain yanked, for me, I'd be spending my money elsewhere. Lots and lots of places like the cash. And, if a guy runs slowly, yet finishes, I seem to remember a fable about a tortise and a hare.

See ya at PPIR!