Rule Change Suggestions for 2009

[dave.gallant]

OK - Here is the 2009 thread.

Please, cite existing rule if applicable and your additions/edits to that rule.

If you want to discuss it (argue about it), that is fine but your "rule change suggestion" needs to cite the actual rule as it exists today or you are wasting everyone's time.

[clowe]

G. Only DOT tires may be used.
4. Grooved DOT’s are allowed for wet conditions. Trimming tires for
clearance purposes is prohibited.


Please, please, please for the love of all that holy please let's start allowing rain tires in SS if the race is deemed wet (this should be up to the TM). Next season we may well have four race tracks to race at. On three of them we should be able to race in the rain. We can argue about safety, cost, Supersport being a stock class but why don't we cut through the BS. We all come to the track to race, not pussyfoot around turning 1:30 minute lap times in to 2:15 minute lap times because you can hardly lean the bike over. We have a very good chance of racing in the rain next year. Those of you who have never raced in the rain at all and plan on racing Supersport next year should really pay attention to this. Riding around on DOTs on a 185HP SS 1000 is not safe or very fun. Try it on a 125 HP 600 and it is not much better. I don't care what anyone has said in the past, racing dangerous but using rain tires helps us to minimize the risk. Think of it is as for the same reason you wear a helmet. Riding with one is dangerous too, but which is more dangerous, with a helmet or without? I won't ride without one!

[Wild Cheetah 612]

At least two tracks. AMA didn't run PPIR in the rain.

Crash,
Put in the wording you'd like to see in the rulebook.

[benfoxmra95]

G. Only DOT tires may be used.
4. Grooved DOT’s are allowed for wet conditions. Trimming tires for
clearance purposes is prohibited.


Please, please, please for the love of all that holy please let's start allowing rain tires in SS if the race is deemed wet (this should be up to the TM). Next season we may well have four race tracks to race at. On three of them we should be able to race in the rain. We can argue about safety, cost, Supersport being a stock class but why don't we cut through the BS. We all come to the track to race, not pussyfoot around turning 1:30 minute lap times in to 2:15 minute lap times because you can hardly lean the bike over. We have a very good chance of racing in the rain next year. Those of you who have never raced in the rain at all and plan on racing Supersport next year should really pay attention to this. Riding around on DOTs on a 185HP SS 1000 is not safe or very fun. Try it on a 125 HP 600 and it is not much better. I don't care what anyone has said in the past, racing dangerous but using rain tires helps us to minimize the risk. Think of it is as for the same reason you wear a helmet. Riding with one is dangerous too, but which is more dangerous, with a helmet or without? I won't ride without one!

#-o

[clowe]

Oh, I forgot about PPIR. So that would make three tracks that we can run in the rain and two we don't. I am assuming that both new track in Colorado get built and we are able to race at both of them.

Exact wording to come.

[The GECCO]

At least two tracks. AMA didn't run PPIR in the rain.

They didn't? I don't recall that they ever got rained out there, but I know the MRA has run PPIR in the rain.

Either way, my opinion (and Crash and I have had this debate more than a couple times) on the rain tires is that it shouldn't be called a safety issue. You can go FASTER on rain tires, yes, but that doesn't make it safer. Whether or not you fall is still up to the skill of the rider, and with rain tires you'll be going faster and slide further when you fall. This is like saying that racing slicks are safer than street tires. The different tire only changes where the traction limit is, it has nothing to do with the rider's ability to find that limit without exceeding it.

To take it to an absurd comparison - if we raced on bare wheels it would be very safe because no one would get going fast enough to get hurt when they fell, but the best rider would still win.

I don't really have a dog in that fight, I just wanted to put forth another opinion that is held by at least a few of the top riders.

[dave.gallant]

I am not a top rider. (We only have 1 top rider btw)

It is my opinion that at my skill level (and the skill level of 99% of the people in our organization), I have less of a chance of wadding up my bike and hurting myself while riding in the rain on rain tires than on modern DOTs.

If you think it is "not safer", stop invalidating an MRA members opinion and feel free to ride DOTs in the rain. It would still be legal to do so.

FWIW: If I had to purchase a set of rain tires, it would have cut my DOT tire bill by 50-60% for a given weekend. The "costs too much" argument does not fly for the people it would effect most.

[Ray-Ray]

Glenn -

The AMA wouldn't race at PPIR in the rain. Something to do with the banking. I remember waiting out the rain while corner working. And as long as I've been around the MRA has not raced in the rain there either.

[The GECCO]

Glenn -

The AMA wouldn't race at PPIR in the rain. Something to do with the banking. I remember waiting out the rain while corner working. And as long as I've been around the MRA has not raced in the rain there either.

I'll have to ask Jim, I seem to remember him telling me that he won a rain race at PPIR and it was his only win at that track.

[Ray-Ray]

Glenn -

The AMA wouldn't race at PPIR in the rain. Something to do with the banking. I remember waiting out the rain while corner working. And as long as I've been around the MRA has not raced in the rain there either.

I'll have to ask Jim, I seem to remember him telling me that he won a rain race at PPIR and it was his only win at that track.

That must have been in a "wet dream" OR i just suffer from CRS!!

[Hotrod]

I cornerworked a race at PPIR that was such a downpour that Jim Brewer pulled his truck out onto the track to give the cornerworkers some shelter while we set up for the motard event.
It dumped all afternoon, and we didn't stop till the break before motard.
As soon as we were all set, we let the dingdongs on dirtbikes have at it in the rain too. :lol:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I'll have to ask Jim, I seem to remember him telling me that he won a rain race at PPIR and it was his only win at that track.

Bite my butt. I have a few 1st place trophies from PPIR - mostly on my Ape, some on my TLR.

But yes, the MRA has *always* raced in the rain at PPIR - there isn't a reason not to. I don't know what you're remembering, Ray. I know we waited out the storm a couple times, but if it was constantly raining, we kept racing.

As soon as we were all set, we let the dingdongs on dirtbikes have at it in the rain too.

Ha! I remember that, Lincoln. The motos were leaving 2 foot wakes through the 5-6 esses section. That was cool.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Back on topic - I have a couple questions for Davey and Crash.

If we allow rain tires in SS, do we want to declare the race a "wet" race (as Crash suggests)?

If so, how much time do we allow for people to switch out their DOT's for rains? I'd suspect some if not most SS racers don't carry around 2 sets of OEM wheels.

If not, we'll have to write the rules such that non-DOT tires can be used at any time. Or we'll have to spell out what exactly we mean by a "rain" tire - compound, tread, carcass, etc. Or would we allow cut slicks? If so, how cut do they have to be? (I remember the AMA 600 SS Pirelli tire fiasco @ Daytona back in '96)

As a point of reference, I've raced a few wet races on DOT's and on rains. I don't understand the "safety" argument - rains give more grip than DOTs, but they're both predictable. Predictably less grip doesn't make riding unsafe, unpredictable grip makes it unsafe.

[dave.gallant]

Don't declare a race to be anything different than it already is. If a rider wants to show up on a dry track with rain tires, so be it. If a rider wants to show up ON TIME for a race in the wet on rain tires, so be it.

We shouldn't allow time to switch out tires due to the weather. At 3rd call, no matter what the weather is doing, either you are on the grid or you are not.

This doesn't mean you need a spare set of wheels; it means you have to be prepared to ride at the same time everyone else is and we can not hold up the race day (except at Pueblo) due to rain. Everyone mounts super soft DOTs now for the rain anyways at places like Hastings, and some of the "top" riders have impossible-to-find real DOT legal rain tires which makes the playing field even less level.

Rain tires can be ANY tire obviously designed for wet weather. Avon has one that is DOT legal to boot, Bridgestone has a (great) rain race tire, Pirelli, Dunlop, Michelin - everyone has what we refer to as a "rain tire", and if we need to we can come up with very specific language to describe what it is and how it is recognized.

No slicks. No cut slicks. No hand cut rain tires of any origin, rain or not. No extra grooving to a DOT.

Since Senator Crash came up with this legislation, he really should put it in the form of a Bill so that it can be discussed at length (again) at the rules meeting this fall.

Back on topic - I have a couple questions for Davey and Crash.

If we allow rain tires in SS, do we want to declare the race a "wet" race (as Crash suggests)?

If so, how much time do we allow for people to switch out their DOT's for rains? I'd suspect some if not most SS racers don't carry around 2 sets of OEM wheels.

If not, we'll have to write the rules such that non-DOT tires can be used at any time. Or we'll have to spell out what exactly we mean by a "rain" tire - compound, tread, carcass, etc. Or would we allow cut slicks? If so, how cut do they have to be? (I remember the AMA 600 SS Pirelli tire fiasco @ Daytona back in '96)

As a point of reference, I've raced a few wet races on DOT's and on rains. I don't understand the "safety" argument - rains give more grip than DOTs, but they're both predictable. Predictably less grip doesn't make riding unsafe, unpredictable grip makes it unsafe.

[dave.gallant]

As a point of reference, I've raced a few wet races on DOT's and on rains. I don't understand the "safety" argument - rains give more grip than DOTs, but they're both predictable.

Safety by definition is a subjective thing that is based on opinion. Statistics might be used to describe potential for accident, but "level of safety" is generally described by a person as a "feeling", not a fact. (eg: "...something felt safer...")

Overall though, I don't even care if rains are "safer" than DOTs and you guys can argue about that point all you want. I have raced many times in the rain on both, and in my opinion the margin for error is higher on rains. The thing I care most about is getting myself and my bike back home Sunday night in one piece. I mean, this is "club racing" after all and getting hurt sucks no matter what the situation.

I am not sure how rain tires could spoil the sanctity of Supersport racing considering an un-obtanium traction control system or a engine bottom end that will last 3 races is perfectly acceptable (and found on our grids whether you like it or not)

In fact, my next rule suggestion will be what I suggested in '04 - Showroom stock except for tires, ground clearance items, and suspension internals...I am sure it will be "booooed" again this year.

[clowe]

Ummmm......Dave, I don't think I could have said it better.

Race often comes down to choices. If we are racing at Hastings and I choose to put rain tires on (definition to follow) and I head out to the grid and it does not rain, I took my chance and it went the wrong way. We are talking about 7 and 8 lap races, not 45 lap races, there is pretty small window. As Dave said, we can argue the safety thing all day but it is very subjective at best. I think the fact that you can find and by strange, one-off, DOT (REAL) rain tires makes the whole thing silly. I, like Dave and I think everyone else in the club, do not want to tear my equipment up any more than I have to. Current DOT tires are almost identical to slicks in every way, with just very small grooves and they do not heat up in the rain and they do not dissipate water which is what is needed to keep our two very small contact patches on the pavement. I think it is very simple as well, rain tires or DOTs, period. I will try and define it and we can stick with it.

Racing in SS with rain tires does not take away from the spirit of SS any more than quickshifters, TC or putting on a $2500 shock. Just like riding with a helmet does not take away the freedom of riding a motorcycle.

[The GECCO]

Just like riding with a helmet does not take away the freedom of riding a motorcycle.

Here we go.....don't get me started about how much safer it is to ride without a helmet! :shock: :lol:

[clowe]

I knew someone would say that!!!

:-(0)

[DingleBerns]

G. Only DOT tires may be used.
4. Grooved DOT’s are allowed for wet conditions. Trimming tires for
clearance purposes is prohibited.

I don't run supersport, but I'm in favor of just deleting "G" and "4." This would mean that any racer can run rain's or dot's rain or shine.

On the safety subject, I would feel mentally safer on rains than dot's in the rain....cheaper as well.

my cent of two

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

don't get me started about how much safer it is to ride without a helmet!

[dragos13]

G. Only DOT tires may be used.
4. Grooved DOT’s are allowed for wet conditions. Trimming tires for
clearance purposes is prohibited.

I don't run supersport, but I'm in favor of just deleting "G" and "4." This would mean that any racer can run rain's or dot's rain or shine.

On the safety subject, I would feel mentally safer on rains than dot's in the rain....cheaper as well.

my cent of two

The problem with deleting G is that it would open up the ability to run non-DOT tires, ie slicks.

We will need to modify the rule to say that you can run DOT tires ONLY, with the exception of rulebook defined "rain tires" (which I'm sure Crash will come up with the correct wording for this).

I'm all for allowing ALL MANUFACTURE TYPE of rains. Right now, to allow AVON rains only, you almost screw over the rest of us that dont have an extra set. So it gives a bonus to those with more money, again something supersport "shouldn't" do. To make the money issue more fair, allow Bridgestone, Michelin, etc. made rain tires.

As for safety, sure we'll be going faster. We will also be in more control due to the fact of actually having grip on the track. +1 for ALL BRAND RAINS to be allowed.

[Throttleroller277]

As for safety, sure we'll be going faster. We will also be in more control due to the fact of actually having grip on the track. +1 for ALL BRAND RAINS to be allowed.

I can see both sides of this subject, either way.

But I have a problem with the above statement Dragos.....

Yes, you will be going Faster.....True

In more Control due to having more grip.......? I don't agree.
Look at it on the Dry side.....you can tuck the front on a street tire, you can tuck the front on a Race DOT, you can tuck the front on a Race Slick......each one just going faster than the other.

So how are you in more control? Faster....Yes....More Control???????

I have raced in the rain on both DOT's and Rains several times, so I agree on the speed increase, not the Idea of not being able to "loose it" 8)

Just my 2 cents....

[dragos13]

Well good point Brownie. The way I see it, during a race you are going to push the limits as much as possible without crashing. On DOTS in the rain, the limit is lower then on rain tires. Say the guy in front of you is on AVON rains, are you going to be safer trying to keep up on DOT's or on Michelin rain tires? Maybe my logic is wrong on this topic, but I think running DOTS in the rain will be slower and less predictable, then running a faster pace with rains. Yes you are faster on rains then DOT's, but that is due to feeling more comfortable. Running DOTS in rain, makes you slow down to stay in the comfort limit. I guess either way its in the rain so maybe going faster is more dangerous no matter what?

[Clarkie]

I have a 12 year old set of Pirelli 'DOT Rains' so I dont care if the rule gets changed or not

Seriously though, i have ridden on my DOT rains on a wet track and while they arent anywhere near as good as full rains they are 1000 times better than the current type of DOT race tires. But is it fair that I get to ride on these tire and someone else has to run their DOT race tires? Not really but right now the rule says i can so I will take advantage of the rule (FWIW I have had these tires for 2 years and never gotten the chance to use them in a race)

You can also go and buy a set of normal all weather street tires, these may or may not be better than a DOT race tire, the problem lies in that a couple of manufacturers make 'DOT Rains' and as per the rules you cannot ban them, so if you want 'fair' racing you really need to either open the rules up to allow full rains or just never race in the wet (which i think is a bad thing to do)

Another problem is that some of us have signed tire contracts, I have a 12 year old set o DOT rains because if i went and bought a new set of Avons I would be breaking my contract and that's not something I am prepared to do.

I dont agree with the idea that if everyone is on DOT race tires it is safer than if everyone was on full rains, you can claim the speeds are slower etc etc and on paper it may work out but in reality it doesnt work that way. It's supposed to be a race not a parade, rigth now people just do a couple of laps and pull off to get points or just ride around hoping they wont fall off, sorry but to me that's not a race

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Yipee -- time to pick on Clarkie

I have a 12 year old set of Pirelli 'DOT Rains' so I dont care if the rule gets changed or not

Hmm... the same ones that Yves used at Daytona?

... the problem lies in that a couple of manufacturers make 'DOT Rains' and as per the rules you cannot ban them, so if you want 'fair' racing you really need to either open the rules up to allow full rains or just never race in the wet (which i think is a bad thing to do)

So if a couple of manufacturers make DOT Rains (like MT-60R) why do we have to open up the rules to allow full rains? There's no rule that says you can't use two different manufacturer's tires. You guys with contracts have a problem - but us normal folks can pick whatever works best for the conditions.

I dont agree with the idea that if everyone is on DOT race tires it is safer than if everyone was on full rains, you can claim the speeds are slower etc etc and on paper it may work out but in reality it doesnt work that way.

I wouldn't argue that the DOTs are safer - mostly because I think the contention of one being safer than the other is hogwash. Safety is about predictable grip, not absolute grip. Otherwise flat track racing wouldn't be safe.

It's supposed to be a race not a parade, rigth now people just do a couple of laps and pull off to get points or just ride around hoping they wont fall off, sorry but to me that's not a race

I don't understand why allowing full rains would change that. People will still go slow and pull off early.