Rule Change Suggestions for 2009

[bluedevil]

why 673CC

Im guessing to keep the Triumph 675 out of there?

[T Baggins]

6.2.6

Current:

Motorcycle must meet track sound level regulations. A motorcycle not meeting
sound level regulations will not be allowed to continue until that motorcycle
meets required sound levels.

Suggest:

First, we must define decibel rating requirements, and measuring method:

"As measured at start finish at a distance of no more than <n> feet"

Then:

Motorcycle must meet track sound level regulations. A motorcycle not meeting sound level regulations will not be allowed to continue until that motorcycle meets required sound levels, and will forfeit all purse, contingency, and points earned in class when violation occurred. If violation occurs during a practice, competitor is required to pay a $50 fine and required to prove changes have been made before continuing.

FWIW, AMA is lowering the sound limit for 2011. Perhaps we should attempt to comply with that? Stolen from the press release:

"Most notably, the 2008 AMA Congress passed a 94 dB(a) standard for all amateur and Pro-Am motocross and off-road competition, effective in 2011. The new standard will not apply to land-speed racing, speed trials or drag-racing events.

The new level mirrors both the 2009 standard for professional motocross and Supercross racing in the United States, as well as the level mandated by the FIM (Federation Internationale de Motocyclisme), which governs international motorcycle competition. Currently, sound limits for amateur motorcycle competition are 99 dB(a) for closed-course competition and 96 dB(a) for cross-country racing."

Doesn't define how and where to measure the sound from - but gives at least a number to shoot for...

[dave.gallant]

Another option for measuring is:

"...no more than <n> decibels as measured at <n> feet perpendicular to motorcycle with an engine RPM at half of redline"

( R6 @15k - 7K, SV @9k, 4.5k, R1 @12.5k, 6.5k - etc )

[dave.gallant]

why 673CC

677, however am now tempted to write another suggestion and suggest 650cc.

Two reasons for the 677:

677 is a 2mm overbore in an SV and has been proven to be more reliable. If you want a middleweight bike, buy a Ducati and race with the other 1 bike in SuperTwins U. 3mm (693) means rods in addition to everything else, and the gasket sealing area is so small there is always some sorta issue with the headgaskets at that size. It can be made to work; it is just disproportionately more work.

EX650s can not (as easily I am told) go as big as the SVs. This attempts to provide more than a single competitive bike for the class and allows there to be an actual race for manufacturer contingency $ instead of the normal blow out. (Yes; there is $$ available racing new lightweight twins!)

And, since most people out there refuse to read what I actually write, I will help spell out something yet again this suggestion period: I have nothing against the Ducati 748/749 line of motorcycles and fully believe they are within the same performance index of a good SV650. If anything, a built SV is somewhat better than a non-R 748.

The 748R/S and the 749R are the bikes that should not be out there in "U" type classes, but since people can't seem to tell the difference between the two, I am going to make blanket suggestions that target everything over 700cc to make it easier.

:roll:

[TRK]

Class Limits

2.4.1 Paragraph 3
STGTU class limits - Eliminate the 749 from STGTU (these things are faster than some 600's)
Possibly make the class up to 748cc two cylinder fourstroke.


2.4.1 Paragraph 5
Allow the 848 in RORU

thanks!

After listening to Dave, something a rarely do :shock: make the class a 700cc limit

[Ray-Ray]

Class Limits

2.4.1 Paragraph 3
STGTU class limits - Eliminate the 749 from STGTU (these things are faster than some 600's)
Possibly make the class up to 748cc two cylinder fourstroke.


2.4.1 Paragraph 5
Allow the 848 in RORU

thanks!

After listening to Dave, something a rarely do :shock: make the class a 700cc limit

NO!!! Keep the 748 in U

[rybo]

why 673CC

And, since most people out there refuse to read what I actually write, I will help spell out something yet again this suggestion period: I have nothing against the Ducati 748/749 line of motorcycles and fully believe they are within the same performance index of a good SV650. If anything, a built SV is somewhat better than a non-R 748.

The 748R/S and the 749R are the bikes that should not be out there in "U" type classes, but since people can't seem to tell the difference between the two, I am going to make blanket suggestions that target everything over 700cc to make it easier.

:roll:

Now Dave, I've read every word you've typed on this subject...

I obviously have a horse in this race since I have a 748 that I raced in Twins U this season. I agree with you, Dave, that a well built SV is an equal or better bike than the one I'm riding. Shannon's SV is easily as fast as my bike and he's a better rider, so he won this season. I could pull Ray's (close to) stock SV on the straight at Pueblo, and at Hastings we battled back and forth pretty well. I would have liked to have seen the match up at PPIR, but my being injured prevented me from going all out.

Given this info I'd hate to see a rule that prevented me from riding my bike in Twins U again next year. It's not really competitive in any other class. I can finish mid pack on it in Am U, and do OK in twins O, and it's not LWGP legal, so I can't play there. I suppose since mine is 10 years old I could go and play in Vintage U, but then I couldn't race Twins O because they run at the same time. I like the rule the way it is, and there is a loophole for the 749R. I'm not sure if there is any way around this except to say that the homologation "specials" are not allowed. This would disqualify the 749R and the previous generation RS.

Have no fear! I'll be at the rule change meeting to express my opinions!

scott

[dave.gallant]

I am just lighting the fire here.

Everyone who has any interest in this should show up to the rules meeting, or provide their opinion to an MRA Board member so it can be presented there.

[TBSgraphics]

All bikes and classes must be 2-strokes... :lol:

[rybo]

Production Class Racing (amateur)

Propose 2 new categories:

Middleweight Production
Open Production

MIDDLEWEIGHT PRODUCTION
Up to 600cc four cylinder
Up to 750cc two or three cylinder
Up to 904cc, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
Unlimited displacement pushrod, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per
cylinder, air cooled

OPEN PRODUCTION
Unlimited displacement

Supersport motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the requirements in Section 5 - Technical and Safety Requirements.

The intent of this class is to reduce the ongoing costs of racing and bring close competition. As such only minimal modifications may be made to the motorcycle with the intention of making it track worthy. In the production class the stock ECU, Airbox, Air Filter and Exhaust system must remain in place.

For production class racing only the following modifications may be made. No other changes/modifications are allowed:

1)Bodywork may be changed for plastic or fiberglass bodywork of similar appearance and dimensions to the stock body. Aftermarket ram air tubes and windscreens are permitted.

2)Case covers may be replaced with reinforced covers for the purpose of fluid retention

3)Hand and foot controls may be changed, but the stock master cylinder(s) must be used

4)Insturment/fairing brackets may be changed

5)Fork springs may be changed, no other modification of the stock forks is allowed

6)The rear shock may be changed to a commercially available aftermarket unit. The linkage must remain stock

7)Brake pads and brake lines may be changed.

8)Fluids may be changed

9)Tires must be a brand / model that is available to all racers throughout the season. Rain tires will be allowed.





Thanks Benny...I think including the bit about section 5 should cover steering dampers

[motobum]

Production Class Racing (amateur)

Propose 2 new categories:

Middleweight Production
Open Production

MIDDLEWEIGHT PRODUCTION
Up to 600cc four cylinder
Up to 750cc two or three cylinder
Up to 904cc, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per cylinder, air cooled
Unlimited displacement pushrod, two cylinder, four stroke, two valves per
cylinder, air cooled

OPEN PRODUCTION
Unlimited displacement

The intent of this class is to reduce the ongoing costs of racing and bring close competition. As such only minimal modifications may be made to the motorcycle with the intention of making it track worthy. In the production class the stock ECU, Airbox, Air Filter and Exhaust system must remain in place.

For production class racing only the following modifications may be made. No other changes/modifications are allowed:

1)Bodywork may be changed for plastic or fiberglass bodywork of similar appearance and dimensions to the stock body. Aftermarket ram air tubes and windscreens are permitted.

2)Case covers may be replaced with reinforced covers for the purpose of fluid retention

3)Hand and foot controls may be changed, but the stock master cylinder(s) must be used

4)Insturment/fairing brackets may be changed

5)Fork springs may be changed, no other modification of the stock forks is allowed

6)The rear shock may be changed to a commercially available aftermarket unit. The linkage must remain stock

7)Brake pads and brake lines may be changed.

8)Fluids may be changed

9)Tires must be a brand / model that is available to all racers throughout the season. Rain tires will be allowed.

that sounds cool!

you forgot steering dampers

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Production Class Racing (amateur)
<snip>
The intent of this class is to reduce the ongoing costs of racing and bring close competition.
<snip>
5)Fork springs may be changed, no other modification of the stock forks is allowed

6)The rear shock may be changed to a commercially available aftermarket unit. The linkage must remain stock

It seems a little strange to limit fork mods so much (which would be pretty hard to enforce), but allow essentially unlimited shock mods. I would suggest saying that any internal mods are allowed, but the stock forks and stock shock must be used. That would keep the cost down (people wouldn't be able to spend $$$ on aftermarket shocks) and would make the rule easy to police via visual inspection.

I'd suggest looking at the AFM production rules as a model -- http://www.afmracing.org/content/view/31/49/

[rybo]

Jim,

The thought behind the suspension requirements came after talking with Dave a bit.

His thoughts were as follows.

1) A large number of the OEM forks on bikes right now don't have the ability to change internal valving as many of the parts are pressed together. This means that to change valving in the forks you would need to buy 25mm cartridges which cost in the $1500 range. The fork springs are the most important part to be able to change, so since this is possible with all stock forks then we are good to go with stock internals.

2) There are a large number of rear stock shocks where the spring is either an unusual size or cannot be replaced. Again, since the spring is the most important part of suspension set up the best answer to this question is to be able to replace the entire shock.

That was the thinking, I'm interested in seeing where the discussion around this class goes.

P.S. When is the rule change meeting?

Scott

[JWinter]

Currently reads: 2.3.1. D. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet lower class displacement limits is NOT allowed. (e.g., a bike that is a heavyweight in origin can NOT be re-sized for middleweight competition.)

Propose one of two possible changes:

1. drop the rule completely.

Or

2. read as follows: 2.3.1. D. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet lower class displacements is not allowed in 2.2 (supersport) classes only. Superbike and Grand Prix classes (2.3-2.8) are exempt. Engines that have been reduced in displacement WILL BE allowed to race in any upper displacement classes except ROR GTO and 2.2 all supersport classes.
Example: Ducati 848cc reduced to 750cc would still be able to race in Middleweight, Heavyweight, and open superbike and GTU classes.

Reasons for this suggestion: The current GSXR 750 and 600 share the same frame. Other bikes could be de-stroked in super twin classes to allow closer competition with SV's or many clubs allow SV 650's to be de-stroked to 500cc and these bikes could compete in the Colorado class.

[cromer611]

im ok with a stock rear shock. *glares at bike*

[tcrump711]

E. Any novice racer who finishes in the top 10 in overall points in either Novice GTU or Novice GTO will be ineligible to compete as a Novice in the future unless they do not race for 3 or more seasons and are subject to the requirements
of 4.3.C.

I would like to suggest that this rule be amended to include Am U, Am O and any endurance classes.
If we force a top ten Novice to move to expert, how can we not hold a novice finishing top ten in an Am class to the same standards. I would think that it would be more difficult to finish top ten with experts mixed in.

[DingleBerns]

ummm...i believe that rule suggestions have ended...

dingle

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

ummm...i believe that rule suggestions have

Yup, see http://forums.mra-racing.org/viewtopic.php?t=7555

I can queue it up for next year.

BTW, the reason I have an end to the time to submit suggestions is so people will have a very good idea on what's being proposed for the rule committee meeting (today). Having people surprised at the last minute for a rule change isn't cool.

And I try to get it all done before the end of the year so everyone has enough time to make decisions on what they want to race next year.