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Thread: Why don't we follow our rulebook???

  1. #1
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    Why don't we follow our rulebook???

    This weekend there were I believe 3 supersport riders to have been found with an illegal set up on their bikes according to our rulebook. From what I have heard these riders were fined $50 and no points or positions were taken away from them. These riders finished better than other riders going for Suzuki and Yamaha contingency. Which means that lets say a cheating yamaha rider took 5th place, They were fined $50 but won $250. If another yamaha rider finished behind this person he would have been paid $200. So the cheater still makes $200 and the legit racer makes $50 less than he should. Somehow I don't think this is fair. According to our rulebook

    Section 13

    C. Upon entering any motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class.

    D. Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension.

    Now I understand that if you read both of these penalties they sort of contradict each other. But the bottom line is the 3 riders who were found to be cheating all had the same change to their bikes from what I have heard. This is a change that has been proven to give extra horsepower. Now according to 13.C it is the riders responsibility for their bike to meet requirements. The 3 bikes to have been found to be illegal all come from a motorcycle background and can in no way be considered incompetent in motorcycle technical matters. They knew what they were doing when they altered their bikes to increase horsepower. I knew of the modification to these bikes when I ran Superbike classes and guess what I did them because it was legal because I wanted every advantage I could get. Now I run supersport and I did not do this modification because I did not want to cheat. Even if it only gives you .1 HP it is still cheating and we should penalize according to our rulebook especially when these riders damn well knew what they were doing when they modified their bikes.

    In my opinion I believe the MRA board failed us this weekend in their decision of this matter. I think to make it right we should follow what our rulebook says and penalize these riders with loss of points and positions for this last weekend in the classes that were cheated in and loss of season points in those classes.

    (Seriously the AMA penalized Josh Hayes after the week of Daytona so why can't we reverse a decision and penalize our riders according to our rulebook after the fact, If this is not done I say Bull Sh!t) I'm sick of our club being considered a cheaters club and it needs to change.
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  2. #2
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    Grabs bag of popcorn and watches......



    We have made a lot of exceptions and "re-writes" to the rules because of certain infractions made in the last few years... and in fact gone soft on some of the infractions..... Though I dont know any specifics of this specific situation.... I think your right.... We have a rule book for a reason... and we have penalties that we are all aware of when taking a risk or gray area....

    If you are illiterate and cant read, I certainly understand.. however, Ill be glad to sit down and read the rule book to you if that is the case... Id hate for some one unable to read, to un-fairly be labeled a "cheater"


    http://www.mra-racing.org/PDF/2008_rulebook.pdf

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    +1 Chris. I'm glad someone said something public about this.
    Casey D

  4. #4
    glenngsxr
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    no doubt! I did not finish anywhere near the front, but it does not matter. Crankcase breather hoses relieve crankcase pressure. No brainer! Go read the WERA board on the question I posted this morning and you might find some answers and opinions on the matter.

    Chris,
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  5. #5
    Jim 'smooth' Brewer
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    Re: Why don't we follow our rulebook???

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbleweed
    <<< snip >>>
    D. Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in the rider forfeiting points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class. Violations judged to not result in a performance advantage will result in fines and/or suspension.
    Now I understand that if you read both of these penalties they sort of contradict each other. But the bottom line is the 3 riders who were found to be cheating all had the same change to their bikes from what I have heard. This is a change that has been proven to give extra horsepower.
    I think you're talking about the air tube issue, no? If so, there is another relevant part of the rulebook.. namely 2.2.2.C.10.d (sheesh..)
    d. Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may
    be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided
    they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.
    Keep in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight - I'm just trying to add some clarity to the discussion as I know it.

    The crux of the issue is around the phrase ... "to gain a performance advantage" - which speaks of the intent of using them. If, as CWeed says, it's clearly an HP gain (like bored throttle bodies would be), then absolutely they should be disqualified.

    So the answer I got from people also not affected by this issue was that this is a maintenance & bodywork fit change and has questionable/unprovable effects on power output, possibly even negative effects in some conditions.

    Since there aren't any dynos that anyone knew of where ram air effects (via different tubes) can be measured, nobody can tell if these tubes do anything to performance.

    Although I wasn't in the loop for an "official" annoucement - I'm assuming it was decided that they did not result in a performance advantage and so fines were levied. I'm sure Ray-Ray or Glenn will correct me if I'm wrong.

    Cheating will kill a club as will appearances of favoritism. This is a tough call and I personally know everyone involved with it has/is taking it very seriously. I hope most people will support the officials' decision and those who disagree with it will make suggestions on what we can do in the future to make things like this less of a problem.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Amateur ZiaThunder's Avatar
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    After racing with MRA for the first time in June I was wondering the same thing.......

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    If there isn't a performance gain from it, then why did they do it? :?
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    If there wasn't a performance advantage gained then it wouldn't be an infraction. Since fines where levied obviously there were infractions, so the discussion should focus around the penalty assessed, not the infraction found. I have no idea who the riders were, but when the penalty is so expressly mentioned in the rulebook club officials shouldn't have discretion to deviate from it.

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    I am not sure if it is supposed to be public knowledge or not when there is a tear down. But it might help if we all knew exactly what the infractions were. I have heard ram air tubes and also crankcase breather hoses. I understand how you would not want to run the stock ram air tubes because I am constantly putting mine back into the frame holes after my races but I still never bought aftermarket ones because in my opinion the rulebook spelled it out that it wasn't allowed if it changed them. And I have yet to see an aftermarket tube that looks anything like the stock ones in my bike, therefore I left mine alone. As for the crankcase breather hoses, that can definitely gain HP. I keep my bike 100% legal. If it is questionable I don't use it. I expect the same from everybody else.

    So was the infraction ram air tube related or crankcase breather hose related?

    Either way, I say they should know better and it was wrong and on purpose. It was not a mistake. It was on purpose. Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping. Again I say bad on them.
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  10. #10
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    I heard talk in numerous pits as I rode around on Sunday.....seemed like everyone was "talking" about "it" but no one knew what was really going on. I am with Weed....maybe more communication would be good. Obviously at the track it might be hard as the board determines what to do and discusses matter.
    But once decided either have this discussed at rider meeting, or hold a seperate meeting for those who want to attend.
    The other option is to post it up here clarifying everything and asking for ideas, suggestions, etc.....of course this could take a day or too as well once everyone is back home and settled. I know my rule book was lent out to someone as they were involved with one of the infractions.
    I know there were several individuals upset and lots of talk. I hope it does not continue that way as stated above.......I look forward to see the outcomes and more details related to this.

    On another note....Weed, glad you are okay. Didn't get a chance to talk to you, but saw the bike...OUCH.
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    I got lucky, I'm ok. The bike will live another day. Definitly the fastest crash of my life. Turn 3 no no. Woops.
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    As I was not present I do not know what the actual infractions were but in general crankcase breather lines routed to the PAIR valve is illegal in WERA, illegal in CCS, and (in past years) illegal in the MRA.

    Yes, it is a performance modification, and a well-known one at that. I can show you dyno graphs to prove it, as can every other shop in the area.

    That said, I would not personally disagree with anyone who believes this modification should be made legal. It is cheap, easy, and attainable for most everyone without the need for special tools, dynos, etc. But, that is something that should be brought up in October at the annual rules meeting.
    dave@MotoSix DOT com | MRA #31, WERA #311

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    The actual infraction woould be a good thing to publicize. Shouldn't be much problem with this if the offending parties are not named. It might help someone realize that something they have done may be illegal, even if they are not trying to cheat.

    The talk about ram air ducts is interesting, and has me thinking about my 600 that I ran in MWSS all last year. The air ducts on that bike have a secondary resonator chamber that constantly falls out, and I have even lost one of the two. So this year I just left them off and plugged the holes in the bottom of the tubes (which isn't an issue since it is only running AMU this season anyways). But would this be illegal? The rulebook says the tubes can be removed, but can a part of them be removed and the hole plugged (as i have done on the 600)?

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    Personally, I am 100% comfortable with the decision as it was made.

    Here is what was found:

    (2) Yamaha R1's were found to have aftermarket ram air tubes

    (1) Yamaha R6 was found to have the crankcase vented to the atmosphere, where the stock configuration has it vented to the airbox. FWIW, this is not the same as the modification that Dave (MotoSix) mentioned that has been proven to be a performance enhancer.

    Here are a few relevant issues:

    2.2.2.C.10.d states:
    Should the stock fairing include air-ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed or replaced with aftermarket air duct tubes provided they retain the stock internal area and overall shape.
    Retaining "stock internal area and overall shape" is a somewhat subjective measurement of compliance.

    Additionally, re-quoting what CWeed referenced (emphasis added):
    Violations of technical and safety requirements judged by MRA Officials to gain a performance advantage will result in...
    means that it is still up to our discretion regarding whether or not these modifications resulted in a performance advantage.

    Regarding the air tubes - Are they different? Yes. But, is different always better? Not necessarily. I'll bet everything I own that Yamaha puts more R&D behind the shape and size of their ducts than Sharkskins does. Just like the kids putting a big wing on the back of a Honda Civic - it's definitely different, but not a performance advantage. In fact they are a huge disadvantage to top speed and fuel efficiency.

    Regarding the crankcase breather - also not necessarily a performance gain. In the stock configuration the vent is routed to the airbox between the air filter and the throttle bodies. This area sees high vacuum under wide open throttle conditions and this actually pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. This vacuum is a performance enhancer, all the ultra-high performance engines in F1 and the like actually run a pump that is designed to run the crankcase at as much as 18" of vacuum so there is less air for the crankshaft to push out of the way. Venting the breather to the atmosphere results in a loss of this vacuum, and this could be actually be a performance disadvantage. The modification Dave (MotoSix) mentioned is something that can be done to increase the vacuum of the crankcase on GSXR's. That was not found this weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbleweed
    Why would you buy $150 ram air tubes if you didn't plan on it helping.
    Possibly because they are cheaper than OEM parts damaged in an accident, or to allow the OEM parts to be set aside along with the OEM bodywork to prevent them from being damaged.

    In summary, while these items are violations, the board simply does not feel that the nature of the violations and the gains (if ANY) enjoyed by the riders justify a complete disqualification from the days events and loss of all points-to-date in those classes.
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    I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

    But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

    :lol:
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotoSix
    I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

    But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

    :lol:
    It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The GECCO
    Quote Originally Posted by MotoSix
    I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

    But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap! :shock:

    :lol:
    It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.
    Weird.

    Why go through so much effort??
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    Why go through so much effort??
    I suppose it could be argued that the crankcase fumes going into the airbox take the place of clean air, and therefore reduce performance. However, a lot of what is being vented is the air/fuel mixture that makes it past the rings into the crankcase, so it's not as if this is something that won't burn. As I eluded to above, my opinion is that this benefit of venting to the atmosphere is negligible at best, and perhaps even outweighed by the loss of crankcase vacuum.
    The GECCO

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  19. #19
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    The GECCO wrote:
    MotoSix wrote:
    I can't imagine venting to atmosphere (and not the airbox) does much of anything positive. I guess at Bonneville-like speeds I imagine there would be a few percent higher pressure in the airbox than atmosphere due to the RAM-air design which would negate the vaccum applied to the crankcase vent. That is one of the reasons (besides turbulence) why we run sealed airboxes in the first place. It would be a fun experiment none the less!

    But, I guess it is a technical infraction simply because the crank breather really must go to a catch can. If you tried venting to atmosphere with a Ducati, you would empty all your oil on the first lap!




    It actually did have a catch can in-line (good), but then was routed out the back of the bike (bad) instead of into the belly pan.


    Weird.

    Why go through so much effort??
    Why go through that much effort? The simple answer is whether or not the person who did this did or did not get an advantage, they sure thought they were going to get one with this set up and that is why they ran it that way. Why else would you go through that much effort. So in conclusion this person is a cheater and cheated on purpose to try and get an advantage.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbleweed
    So in conclusion this person is a cheater and cheated on purpose to try and get an advantage.
    or they just didnt think it was illegal..
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    That is the beautiful thing about how Section 13.C is written.

    Section 13

    C. Upon entering any motorcycle in any MRA class, the rider is responsible for their motorcycle meeting class requirements. If at any time the entered motorcycle is found to be illegal for the entered class, the rider will forfeit points and monies earned in that class for that day, and all points earned previously that year in that same class.

    If you don't know the rule book that is your fault. If you rode in the AMA and they found you to be illegal and you didn't know about the rule do you think they would say well how bout $50 and don't do it next time. I don't think so. This section is Black and White. All 3 were found to be illegal for the class. Black and White. But we did not enforce the rules as we should have. Whether on purpose or not it does not matter. We have rules for a reason and when they are broken they should be enforced. If they are not going to be enforced then why the hell am I following them.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumbleweed
    If they are not going to be enforced then why the hell am I following them.
    So I can cheat and get that much closer to beating you.

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    No where in the rulebook is discretion given to anyone to decide the penalty for a violation that is already found. If I was one of the 4 riders I wouldn't pay my fine because there isn't any basis for it in the rulebook. Either revoke their points or (as should be done) don't. Why is a violation of the penalty portion of the rulebook permissible while violating the rule on intake tubes and crankcase whatever impermissible?

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    so if i run my big bore motor in SS and get caught I just get a $50 fine? sweet!............... just dont tell my wife I cheated as i am more scared of her finding out i cheated than anyone else, her calling me a pussy will be the least of my worries

    here is my take on the air intake ducts is this, unless the stock ducts are heavily restricted you arent going to gain any power by going to a duct that is marginally larger, it has to do with aerodynamics, choke point, airbox design etc.

    to me a rule book is a rule book and should be followed to the letter, the problem is that the term 'Showroom Stock' will disqualify 99% of the SS grids even if it's not a 'performance' gain.

    Unfortuneately a LOT of club racing orgs have a history of cheating, grey areas and different rules for different racers (call it confessions of a past champion :wink: ), the other problem is that some clubs say "if it doesnt say you cant you can" (CCS) while other clubs say "if it doesnt say you can you cant" (WERA).

    I say lets just get rid of the SS classes, dump the contingency into the SB classes and have longer (20-30 lap) races, but that's just me

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkie
    so if i run my big bore motor in SS and get caught I just get a $50 fine? sweet!...............
    I agree 1000% with clarkie.

    As Brewer said earlier, I dont have a dog in this fight... I have a 600 superbike and I do not ride in SS because it is illegal for the class.

    So we are now saying as a club, that even though there is a clear cut rule what you can and CANNOT do, that you will only be fined $50 for 'cheating'. If you are torn down and found illegal, there is a clear cut penalty in our rulebook. As charles said earlier... The club DID decide there was an infraction... regardless of being a performance gain or not, the club has found something that makes those bike not legal for supersport, and assesed a fine as a penalty. That being the case, there is a clear cut action for a bike being illegal; points being revoked.

    Should there be some discression in removing all points, or just points from that weekend, I think so. I do not think it would be right to remove all points for the season; but that is not in the rulebook now, and should be something that we bring up at the end of the season allowing for just DQ from that weekend only.

    Also defining a performance gain is complete and utter BS. There are so many opinions on what is a performance gain or not, sample 100 guys, 50 might say one thing, 50 might say another etc. What about a slipper clutch now? Can you definatively prove that it gives a peformance gain? You can tell me its purpose, but what about someone that is better at blipping the throttle and using the engine braking etc. What about slicks? I am willing to bet there are just as many guys ou there that will say slicks dont make a bit of difference over new race dot's.

    At what point is the infraction changed from 'minor' to something that we DQ points? As clarkie said, now can he run his bigbore motor in SS? I am sure that would save him a lot of time changing motors! :twisted:

    IMO there is no reason that the additional punishment of points removal can not still be enforced. The penalty section of the rulebook does not read as 'pick one', it does allow for board to punish points AND a fine (letters C and D i believe)

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