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Thread: Heavyweight change discussion

  1. #1

    Heavyweight change discussion

    Mike (and everyone). I'm going to split the Heavyweight class rule change discussion out from the F40 (and other) rule change discussions.

    Everyone, please start a new basenote if you want to discuss a particular change. That way we can focus the discussion so people don't have to read through a bunch of crap about things they don't care about.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by nobasin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer View Post
    Something like this was suggested in 2013 ..

    Redesignate
    Heavyweight Supersport to be Middleweight Amateur Supersport
    Heavyweight Superbike to be Middleweight Amateur Superbike
    Remove Heavyweight Endurance


    Specifically
    2.2.3.A - Middleweight Supersport rules stay the same
    2.2.3.B - section is removed
    2.3.2.1 - Middleweight Superbike rules stay the same
    2.3.2.2 - section is removed
    2.7.A - remove "Heavyweight"
    4.2.A - Amateur definition (RoR restriction) is applied to Middleweight Amateur Supersport and Middleweight Amateur Superbike classes.

    Reasoning -

    • There hasn't been and are no "heavyweight only" bikes in the MRA (except for Cindy's) so the classes are duplicates of Middleweight.
    • There are enough entries in the heavyweight races to warrant keeping them
    • Designating these classes as "middleweight" is just acknowledging reality
    • Making them amateur classes will expand trophy and contingency opportunities


    Historical discussion can be found at http://forums.mra-racing.org/showthr...cussion-thread
    Jim, why you want to take away HWEND? I know there are no, or almost no HW bikes anymore, but given that our race day still generally gets done with all races completed, and that it runs with OPENEND, it doesn't add any time to the race day and just gives another opportunity for middleweights to 'race up' and do another endurance race, as well as add additional $$$ to weekend revenue for the MRA. Given the usual tightness of the MRA budget, I am not for removing any class altogether as it just removes revenue from the club. There are a lot more people now who are doing both MWEND and HWEND and I think a lot of people (me included) would be disappointed to see this class go away.
    I think we both agree that HWEND is a repeat of MWEND - same bikes, same riders, etc. Since MWEND got so popular and fast, we had to break it out from the LW classes (to keep them from being mowed down), create 3 endurance events, and shorten the races to 20 minutes. I'm proposing going back to 30 min races and having MWEND run with OPENEND as they do in RoR.

    Financially, we could run the numbers but my guess is that HWEND is at best a 2nd entry, if not a 3rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobasin
    I also would like to see Supersport and Superbike stay expert only classes and not changed to amateur designation. I think a lot of experts race these classes partly because they are expert only and are typically some of the faster classes in the club and making them novice eligible would I think discourage participation by some experts. AMO and AMU exist for exactly this purpose and have historically served both racer designations quite well for a long time.
    Just to be clear, I'm not talking about *ALL* Supersport and Superbike classes becoming amateur, just redesignating HWSS and HWSB. MWSS and MWSB remain expert. I'm suggesting only HWSS & HWSB become Middleweight Amateur SS & SB for the reasons I stated.
    Last edited by Jim 'smooth' Brewer; October 3rd, 2019 at 09:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer View Post
    I think we both agree that HWEND is a repeat of MWEND - same bikes, same riders, etc. Since MWEND got so popular and fast, we had to break it out from the LW classes (to keep them from being mowed down), create 3 endurance events, and shorten the races to 20 minutes. I'm proposing going back to 30 min races and having MWEND run with OPENEND as they do in RoR.
    I mostly agree that HW endurance is somewhat a repeat of MWEND, but in the past there has been much more of a distinction and far fewer people running both races. This year had a lot of people running both when for the last 10 years there were like 4-6 of us at most who did both and they were definitely different grids. Both classes are bigger and faster grids this year for sure. But I think if we look back at the previous years before LW got broken out into its own separate race, there were many many rounds where both endurance races became 20 minutes either because of the weather or more often because of earlier races with multiple red flags. Adding LW endurance as a separate race hasn't made it any worse than previous years where circumstances dictated they had to be 20 minute races. Superstreet has also impacted those decisions as well. I do think though most endurance racers would always prefer all endurance classes go the full 30 minutes. (Except maybe when its a million fucking degrees down in Pueblo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer View Post
    Financially, we could run the numbers but my guess is that HWEND is at best a 2nd entry, if not a 3rd.
    That may be true but I would argue every dollar counts for this club, and any budget surplusses that can get carried over to the next year are critical for keeping the club solvent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm not talking about *ALL* Supersport and Superbike classes becoming amateur, just redesignating HWSS and HWSB. MWSS and MWSB remain expert. I'm suggesting only HWSS & HWSB become Middleweight Amateur SS & SB for the reasons I stated.
    Ok, thanks for the clarification, but then HWSS and HWSB basically become AMUHWSS and AMUHWSB so you may open the opportunity up to more novices in those classes but at the expense of losing expert racers who have earned the right to race in expert only classes. That could be a valuable tradeoff for some racers, but not others. I would guess a lot of the experts racing HWSS/SB would opt out of that class if novices were let in. I generally don't race HWSS so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak after your clarification, but I would feel this way if I do choose to race it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nobasin View Post
    I would guess a lot of the experts racing HWSS/SB would opt out of that class if novices were let in.
    I'm curious why you say that. I don't know of any experts that don't race the endurance races because novices are let in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobasin View Post
    I generally don't race HWSS so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak after your clarification, but I would feel this way if I do choose to race it.
    Same here - I'm illegal for HW classes, but I'm offering up this suggestion as other riders have approached me as a Rider Rep about it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim 'smooth' Brewer View Post
    I'm curious why you say that. I don't know of any experts that don't race the endurance races because novices are let in there.
    I have definitely heard experts say they avoid endurance maybe not specifically because of novices, but because of the overall traffic and speed differences, which is certainly partly because of novice racers in there, but I will say there are always a few novices smoking some of the experts so it isn't entirely because of that. But a lot of experts do race endurance even as an AM class and I think that's because endurance has always been an amateur class and so there's always been the expectation of novices in there. Supersport/Superbike has always been an expert only class and because of that they have always attracted some of the fastest racers in the club. I think changing HW Supersport/Superbike to AM status after decades as expert only classes would make a lot of experts think twice about entering it mostly because in a lot of experts eyes it would diminish the status of the class as one of the premier classes, similar to how ROR is viewed. Eh, I could be completely wrong on all fronts since nobody else seems to be interested in chiming in, which may be a first in the forums. :-)

  6. #6
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    I like the idea of removing HW classes. As mentioned above there are only a few true HW bikes thus making them all an additional 600 race.

    However, one point that hasn't been brought up is the time used during the day. For the past several years we get a few crashes into the morning and all of a sudden we are docking laps. Unforuatnly, we all have our fun cut short due to the on track issues. I feel by eliminating HW (which as mentioned above is another 600 class) will help free some time
    Last edited by jplracing; November 4th, 2019 at 11:25 AM.
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  7. #7
    I just looked over the HWSS, HWSB, and HWEnd results from the past 3 years.

    There has been 4 different bikes in 3 years that are HW only in all of these classes.

    • Casey Smith has run his RSV1000R 8 times in 3 years in HW classes
    • Zach Friley ran his RC51 once in 2017
    • Jeremiah Walker ran his MV Agusta F3 twice in 2018
    • The electric bike guys ran theirs twice in 2019



    All other entries for HW classes for 3 years were middleweight bikes.

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