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[sheispoison]

Skipping rounds as to not be top ten in points?

That's exactly what happens. Pretty lame.

[loujr]

At the end of the end of the day that cant feel good. That's not an accomplishment

[Clarkie]

The MRA President said you are only cheating if you get caught, I totally agree with you Carl, having integrity as a racer and a person is why I never cheated even though I was acused of cheating. It seems other board members feel differently about integrity vs cheating......as long as you dont get caught :roll:

[glenngsxr]

Let's not go down a rat hole here. This is not a cheating thread.


Let's break it down.

-The MRA has done a fantastic job of bringing in new racers. The novice grids are healthy from what I see. Not as huge as they used to be, but considering the economic conditions, not bad at all.

-The expert grids are small

-The overall concern (based on what DaveG is alluding to) is that there is incredibly high turnover in the club.

I'd say he's on to something.

My thoughts.....
1) Minimize the money battle
a. Limit the mods one can make in novice races. Reduce the amount of money one can pour into their novice effort.
b. Spec out some additional classes to allow more "equal" ground racing. Maybe this could be the new Amatuer definition.
2) Find a way to fight the tire war. Prices are outta control.
3) Leave the rest alone

[jmaher]

From a philosophical perspective, I have to greatly disagree with "a". I don't like telling people how they can spend their money. How do you monitor that? Do you limit the amount they can spend on a bike? Parts? Can a new racer buy a new race ready KTM RC8 yet someone else cannot spend the money to put equal parts onto a stock GSXR? That seems like a slippery slope.

Joe

[graphite675]

My thoughts.....
1) Minimize the money battle
a. Limit the mods one can make in novice races. Reduce the amount of money one can pour into their novice effort.
While that sounds like a good idea and I'm not completely against it that could be a double edged sword. You may loose people that already have modified bikes. For instance, I have upgraded suspension (not $$ Ohlins but not stock) If you come out and say you must run stock suspension I'm out because I am not going to go and spend money to purchase stock suspension and put it back on just to race novice. I think many folks have purchased former race/track bikes that have mods of some sort or another.


b. Spec out some additional classes to allow more "equal" ground racing. Maybe this could be the new Amatuer definition.
2) Find a way to fight the tire war. Prices are outta control.
I agree 100%. Tires are the biggest cost and it is getting out of control. I myself run the same tires for a couple of weekends. There is no way I could afford a new set every weekend much less multiple sets a day.

3) Leave the rest alone

[rforsythe]

The other problem with 'a' is there are already a bunch of modified bikes in circulation. If you started a spec class, I'm guessing the majority of the grid would have to scrap their ride and start over. Go around the pits at Pikes and see how many bikes you can find that have only modified bodywork, tires, and suspension, even in superstreet. Now granted you won't find any because most people have done a bunch of work to be in line with everyone else, or bought pre-prepped bikes.
(edit: graphite and I posted at about the same time, same idea)

I like the *idea* of a spec class. I don't think it would succeed in the MRA right now though. There is still a barrier to entry of having to basically go buy an unmolested street bike, and even 600's of different (newer) years will have a competitive advantage, so now we're back to spending more than the other guy. The reason the 250 class is so intriguing is because every bike is very nearly identical.

As for the tire thing, I don't know how to get production cost down on those. I'm running last year's new Michelin stock (saved me about $100/set) on an SV650 (gets about 2 weekends from a set) and it's still pricey, but better than you big bike guys blowing a wad on a new set of tires every weekend. I feel for you.

[glenngsxr]

From a philosophical perspective, I have to greatly disagree with "a". I don't like telling people how they can spend their money. How do you monitor that? Do you limit the amount they can spend on a bike? Parts? Can a new racer buy a new race ready KTM RC8 yet someone else cannot spend the money to put equal parts onto a stock GSXR? That seems like a slippery slope.

Joe

I hear ya, but I don't think the worry surrounds the rich, slow guy buying the RC8. His bike is nothing skill cannot overcome, which is what we are trying to emphasize and allow to flourish in the future (rather than going bankrupt before you get there).

Wasn't wanting to get into specific modification rules, but merely throwing out ideas.

Of course the other problem that comes up is all the used bikes that novices snatch up and race their first year. They are already modded for the most part.

Oh hell, let's just spec everything out and start over.

[loujr]

I don't think that people will ever stop making their bike the best they can....with or without staying within the rules. I do think that there should be something in place to prevent riders from racing classes intended as steping stones for new, and up coming riders. I think not completing novice hours intentionally should have a punishment. Simply taking points away so they can keep their novice status isn't helping them progress in the system. There is no way to prove an individual missed a round just to loose points, however if they show up the next season and start to dominate maybe some "encouragement" to progress to expert to allow the true novice racers a platform to compete against other novice racers??? It took me a couple seasons to become expert, but I only completed one full season as a novice and I wasn't points dodging. It was hard to get my umm sponsor (father) to realise racing was just as important to me as it was for him in the 80's and 90's. I grew up in tires at second creek and the hot tub in aspen....I want my son to have the same childhood memories. I do what I can for our club in the most positive manner I am able. If we minimize the rules and throw integrity away we all share what the Mra represents, as we all are a part of it good or bad.

[Teach]

This is all pretty interesting to read.. especially being a novice myself. Ill say right off that i like the idea of moving up after a certain number of podiums.
I would hate to be in a class where there are only 5 or so riders and ride alone the whole time. Then I may as well save money, do a track day and get the same thing out of it. I have way more fun when I'm dicing with somebody.
This is my 3rd year racing (not sure if I can even count my 1st with all the crashes and frustrations I encountered), but I am just now feeling like I am figuring out the art of "racing" a motorcycle (im still slow as sht). I have spent many hours talking with others, readng and I took the star school from which I learned a lot. I had to do alot of this on my owm because I love the sport and I want to imrove and learn.
Maybe if the MRA held classes similar to that to help refine racers skills and make them faster, as opposed to spending money on things that make the bike itself better. Re learning how to ride my bike was a very frustrating thing and Im sure other novices would appreciate the help.
I know we are told to ask help from others and its ok to talk to other racers, which I have absolutely no problem doing now after 2 years, but as a first year racer, it can be intimidating as hell asking experts for advice. Plus nobody wants to look like the dumbass, or maybe thats just me!
As for the trophies and such, I did think as a first year and even at the beginning of my second that those were the imporant things. To get a trophy would show I can race. Now my goal or focus isnt to get a podium.. but I get much more excited when I gain a second or spend my sprint race dicing with one other rider.
Now I just want to have confidance, improve my lap times and become a better rider, because now I know thats what will make me (a little) faster.

[Wayniac]

This thread has really progressed. I see the main problem being lack of racers at the expert level. I almost feel bad for the amount of fun I had racing NGTU. 39 riders made for a lot of passing from the second wave. I'm still not sure how the scoring works, or how I got 7th, even though I'm pretty sure I physically passed the guy who got second. But it was the funnest race of my whole life and isn't that why we're out here? Let's face it, most of us aren't getting the dream ride with Repsol Honda. We won't travel to exotic locations to sit on grids with our heroes and have cute paddock girls that piss off our wives hold umbrellas over our heads. So I think a 600 class is the way to go. The 250 class is good, but the bikes are too small IMHO. Don't impose mod rules, if the racer with a big budget wants to blow money on his ride than so be it. There are so many 600 out there and fairly cheap too. I know it's not the answer for lack of expert grid riders. But I think it would be a great idea for "fun" racing.

[rforsythe]

So I think a 600 class is the way to go. The 250 class is good, but the bikes are too small IMHO. Don't impose mod rules, if the racer with a big budget wants to blow money on his ride than so be it. There are so many 600 out there and fairly cheap too. I know it's not the answer for lack of expert grid riders. But I think it would be a great idea for "fun" racing.

Don't we already have those?
NGTU
NGTO (ride up, most of the grid is 600)
AGTU, AGTO (same thing)
MWSB (Expert 600 do anything to your bike class)

I'm curious, how many novices are licensed vs experts? Are smaller expert grids due to the fact that we just have more classes to ride and can "choose our bike" a bit more than the novices can?

[Pep620]

Since this thread I believe started with my protesting, or as I see it now my bitching and whining I'll throw in my thoughts.

First of all, I'll thank Dave for reminding me what I'm really racing for, simply to have fun. Whether starting up front or 2nd wave back row it's all smiles in my helmet. This is my 4th season technically but I only ran 2 weekends my 1st due to a lack of a bike and the season was cut short, 3 weekends endurance only my 2nd after coming out for the race school trackday and breaking a leg. 3 weekends at the end of last year of which 2 I ran NOV O and U. So a total of 8 weekends over 3 seasons, not a lot. Being able to run a full season this year and being legitimately "booted" to expert has been my goal since I started this madness. If some think of me as a "sandbagger" so be it, I personally don't feel like I'm an expert so I didn't ask to be and maybe denied, who knows. I admit that running up front feels damn good. In saying that I also enjoy starting in the back and picking through to catch the 1st wave, so I signed up to run AM O and U at PPIR and look forward to starting back row.

I do think the rules need to be looked at seasons end and I will attend the meeting and give my input for what it's worth. Until then just racing, learning, and the camaraderie that keeps me coming back.

[rybo]

Spec 600 has been in my mind for a couple of years now.

There was an article a couple of months ago in one of the motorcycle magazines about the rising costs of racing. I've copied a link to the article here along with a framework of a proposal for a spec 600 class.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/12...Inflation.aspx

I would like to propose that we drop HW Supersport in 2013 in favor of a 600cc class that builds on the success of the N250 formula. In this class I would suggest that we strictly limit the development of the motorcycle in a couple of areas, creating hard limiting factors on the performance of the bike.

The following parts are to remain unmodified / stock - as delivered from the factory:

1) Intake system including - Air tubes, airbox, air filter, and all intake electronics. No electronic add-ons, kit ECU, quickshifters or tuners of any kind are allowed. If the bike comes from the factory with multiple fueling maps, any of the stock maps may be used.

2) Exhaust system must be fitted as delivered from the factory without modification.

3) Engine internals - All engine internals must remain as delivered from the factory.

I propose the specification of a STREET TIRE for the class. The goal of this is that the tire will become the limiting factor to the performance of the motorcycle, much like the front suspension is the limiting factor on the current N250.
Instead of a SPEC tire l I propose that we select ONE eligible tire model from EACH brand of tires. For Examples

Michelin Power Pure
Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa
Dunlop Q2
Bridgestone S20
Continential Road Attack

Other tires could be approved at the discretion of the board of directors, but that's a solid list of roughly equivalent tires from a variety of brands

All of these tires can be had on the open market (and from our current vendors for tires) for between $250 - $280 a set, which is cheaper than any of the available race tires at this time in 180/120

Support for the use of these tires and evidence that they do NOT pose a safety hazard in use:

1) Jason DiSalvo used a set of q2 tires at one of my trackdays last year on an essentially stock 1098S ducati and was within 2 seconds of the course record. The lap in which he went that fast was near the end of the day, after he had ridden the tires extensively at speed. I clocked about 10 of his laps in a row and on that bike, with that tire he would have been a podium finisher in any ROR race we held at HPR last season.

2) The street tires today are better than the race tires we had available less then 10 years ago

3) The use of street tires further reduces the cost of racing by eliminating the need for tire warmers and thus generators

4) The use of these tires for the "spec" class does not prevent the use of a full race tire in other classes - in fact it will make those tires last longer since they will not be on the bike full time.

Parts that can be changed / modified with parts from unlimited origin

1) Bodywork
2) Brake Lines
3) Fluids
4) Handlebars / Footrests
5) Chain / Sprockets
6) Brake Pads


crazy, i know....it'll never work.


Some items that I think remain open to discussion:

Suspension- - It might make sense to allow the use of an aftermarket shock / valving on the spec bikes because proper suspension greatly improves tire life (and in the long term reduces cost). I would think that we could prohibit the use of fork cartridges, however, and limit the modification to replacement valving / tuning in the fork.

PowerCommander / alternate maps: Again - I think this is an area where if the bike runs well due to good mapping it might be possible that the bike lasts longer as a result. Somehow we would have to be able to police this so that things like traction control aren't slipping in.



I think this could also mark the return of real manufacturer contingency dollars to the sport. If these bikes were raced, pretty much as produced, I would think that this would be an area where manufacturers might be willing to place real contingency dollars out there to prove that their bike is the best.

Thoughts?

[rforsythe]

How do address the pretty big improvements on a new(er) 600 compared to old ones? A bone stock 2001 GSXR600 is going to get its ass handed to it when pitted against one from the past few years with equal riders. Of course a fast guy on an old bike will still probably beat a slow guy on a new one, but the model year differences alone mean it isn't a spec class so much as a 600 Production class. If you want it to be spec, then the bikes need to be on equal terms as well.

[rybo]

If there are going to be contingency dollars involved then the winning bikes are going to be pretty modern anyways.

We have a class for 2001 GSXR's - it's called modern vintage.

[rforsythe]

Then what you're proposing isn't a "ride spec 600's to save money" class, it's a "buy the newest thing you can to compete", easily doubling the cost of a motorcycle compared to older ones. So it's basically just a highly constrained MWSS. What am I missing in your plan that makes it not that?

[Clarkie]

A couple of things Rybo, a stock bike with stock catalytic converter will run very hot and cause damage on some bikes at race speeds. Stock forks and shock can be revalved but externally will look stock and the stock spring rates may cause a danger to some bike/rider combos. We both know a guy who can make a stock shock perform almost as good as a fancy shock.

The idea of a spec class is great, but as was mentioned by Ralph the year and brand of the bike will dictate the class. Instead of racing a $3000 older 600 it will turn into a money race.

[Kingpin]

Okay, time to chime in.

1st of all I don't think our formula is broken, it may need a few minor tweaks, but not broken. Our club IS still in business in this tough economy while many other clubs have folded.

2nd, I don't think the answer is a spec 600 class. As mentioned before probably too hard to police, and too many bikes already out there will not meet the rules.

3rd, We need to try and keep it fun for the racer, and safe.
In my opinion, that is the number one thing.

Sure racing is super expensive, and the days of good contingency are long gone. With this tough economy folks are looking at racing a little different, and yes it is very hard to race forever. (Ricky-Dan are a few exceptions..) The average stay of a racer I think is only 3 years, so what we are looking at is somewhat of a normal cycle.

Okay, now let's talk about the Novice-Expert thing.
Overall our rules are not that out of bounds, but we may want to look into who is on the podium for novice and amateur.

If there is a Novice that is tearing it up and really, really good then sure offer them a chance to move up to expert during the year and not wait.
Otherwise, in my opinion let the Novice learn. Learn how to start, learn how to pass, learn how to race close and not get freaked out. This is why we have a Novice license.

Next, it's also about seat time. There are some Novice racers that only race 1 or 2 races a weekend. So after 7 to 14 races they may get bumped to expert. Other Novice racers race 4 or 5 races a weekend. Now in 1 year they have around 30 races under their belt. They may be more comfortable in the move up that the guy that did not race a bunch.

The racer should want to be moved up, and be a safe enough rider to do it. (Hold their lines, not get freaked out etc...)


The amateur class is perfect to fill that gap of Novice expert and is doing what it is suppose to. Designed for fast Novice and slower-medium level expert racers. When folks start to podium in Amateur then sure there should be rule where they are not allowed to hang out there forever. (And we do have that now). (Top 5 experts only)

The REAL issue is in the next bump. When you have graduated from Novice and Amateur then only can race in Expert only classes is where it may not be as much fun anymore for the racer. Sometimes depending on the class the gap is very large.

As far as ROR goes, this year is a bit different. I can name almost 10 racers that are no presently competing due to injuries or moving on to try the next AMA level. These guys were on our grids last year and yes they were smoking fast, so currently some of our expert grids are light.

I guess where I am going is that in the end it is up to the racer to decide where they want to go in the sport. They can buy a superbike and try for a top 10 plate and see how far their talent will take them. Or they can race something else (Lightweight, twin, etc...and still be competitive just not the fastest guy!) In the end if the racer cannot make it fun they will quit. So some guys may have to adjust their program to keep it fun.

[LordLosh]

KingPin i think you missed the point (I did too when reading over this) Point is there is no reason for a novice rider to bump up other then to challenge himself. So what top 5 guys in novice take podium each race and win overall points. they don't and cant bump up unless they do their 4 hours. So they don't and they stay in novice another year and keep winning and keep getting money.
I felt like his point was why is there contingency and pay outs in a class built around learning & fun? I agree while it would be awesome to get paid or win some money me being a true Novice I would be more excited and happy to just win or place. money means nothing to me.

[T Baggins]

The MRA President said you are only cheating if you get caught, I totally agree with you Carl, having integrity as a racer and a person is why I never cheated even though I was acused of cheating. It seems other board members feel differently about integrity vs cheating......as long as you dont get caught :roll:

1) Why does it always have to come back to cheating for you Clarkie? Haven't you beaten that dead horse enough? Every thread in the forums has you making some reference to cheating in our club - even when the discussion has NOTHING to do with that. You didn't cheat, you were fast. Great, good for you.

2) My comment about "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught" was completely tongue in cheek - and full of sarcasm in that thread. It was obvious that I was joking, anyone could see that.

Please stop painting me as someone who actually believes it is OK to cheat. You are not accurate in your statements, and I don't appreciate you questioning my integrity.

[Clarkie]

Exactly Tony, perception can be seen as reality by some people which is shown by your reply, because I didnt have a smiley face in my post you decided I was being serious. You were wrong :wink:

Your post could be seen as you being serious, while you joke around about things others can't? Do as you say and not a you do?

[T Baggins]

I draw the line at questioning someone's integrity, smiley face or not.

My bad if you were joking.

I'm not.

[Clarkie]

LMAO I never questioned your integrity Tony, but obviously that is your perception Mr president this is your sandbox so your rules so I will never quote or refer to you on this forum again :lol:

[dave.gallant]

Sorry I missed out on so much fun; I have been trying to figure out how to install a headlight so I can race Superstreet this weekend at PPIR.

What I get so far:

1) This sport is too fricken expensive for most mortals.

Glenn C actually pointed out a few things that made me stop and say "hmmmmm...it may be that we can't retain experts and not a novice-specific problem per say..."

2) I learned that winning a novice trophy is more valuable than an expert one because of the investment it would take to get an expert one outweighs the benefit. "No one else knows the difference between the two...", and since we only expect someone to race for 3 years or so, this is the new "normal".

3) I learned that Rybo (and Tony) has some damn good ideas. (I bet it is because of the narcotics he is now taking regularly)

4) I learned that Clarkie is a cheating son of a butch and should be kicked in the nads. (or, the "nad". not sure what is still left on that poor bastard after his body-superbike-modifications)

Anyways, the guys at Shinko said they would give me a free set of tires if I could be the fastest novice. I told them I could do one better; I could be the fastest track day guy! That was good enough for both of us. I mean, no one knows the difference anyways, right?







(And while I am always sarcastic and generally annoying in my ways, this is a great thread with lots of great ideas. Thanks for the input guys.)