Supersport Rulebook Clarification

[Fastt Racing]

Hey Carl. I decided to run a couple supersport classes this year. In the process of switching back to the OEM clutch, and purchasing DOT tires for my bike, I double checked my other stock components to verify all the rules have been met. Here are some questions I had about the supersport rules:

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.e I can not run the Kit valve springs which several people recommended me to purchase. I was wondering if you know of any valve spring shims available, as these are allowed. Maybe Bart has some ideas on who makes these too.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.c does not allow for use of aftermarket or Kit timing chain tensioners, is this something we can address before the next rule change, as it is a slight reliability issue on some motorcycles with poor chain tensioners for medium to high rpm operation, during engine braking.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.A I noticed that none of the EVAP or AIR emmisions components can be removed, which all of mine are still present, but with the unlimited origin of ECU's they could be inoperative. Seems this may need some clarification.

According to Technical Requirements 5.2.1 or supersport rules: I does not specify that we can add frame sliders, fork sliders, or swingarm sliders to the motorcycle, as a deviation from showroom stock. Is this an oversight, and it "Is" allowed, but just got left out of the rulebook?

These were some things that raised some questions for me. If I remember correctly there may have been some bikes entered in the supersport class in the past that were in violation of some of these rules, now that I have preppared my bike in accordance with them. I would hate for there to be any dispute caused by not enforcing the rulebook as it is written, so the competition is as fair an equal for everyone as possible. What are your clarifications on these issues? Sorry for being that guy, but when you learn how to read as a child by your father teaching you with shop manuals and rulebooks this is who you get, LOL. Thanks for your hard work buddy!

[Jon]

It's pretty simple and though I'm not the one that your questions be asked to my observation is, that if you win "you're cheatin" if you finish 2nd or worse you should be. :lol:
Been that way in club racing for years. Though at the nationals it used to be the creativity of the factories that got the rap.

[T Baggins]

Hey Carl. I decided to run a couple supersport classes this year. In the process of switching back to the OEM clutch, and purchasing DOT tires for my bike, I double checked my other stock components to verify all the rules have been met. Here are some questions I had about the supersport rules:

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.e I can not run the Kit valve springs which several people recommended me to purchase. I was wondering if you know of any valve spring shims available, as these are allowed. Maybe Bart has some ideas on who makes these too.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.c does not allow for use of aftermarket or Kit timing chain tensioners, is this something we can address before the next rule change, as it is a slight reliability issue on some motorcycles with poor chain tensioners for medium to high rpm operation, during engine braking.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.A I noticed that none of the EVAP or AIR emmisions components can be removed, which all of mine are still present, but with the unlimited origin of ECU's they could be inoperative. Seems this may need some clarification.

According to Technical Requirements 5.2.1 or supersport rules: I does not specify that we can add frame sliders, fork sliders, or swingarm sliders to the motorcycle, as a deviation from showroom stock. Is this an oversight, and it "Is" allowed, but just got left out of the rulebook?

These were some things that raised some questions for me. If I remember correctly there may have been some bikes entered in the supersport class in the past that were in violation of some of these rules, now that I have preppared my bike in accordance with them. I would hate for there to be any dispute caused by not enforcing the rulebook as it is written, so the competition is as fair an equal for everyone as possible. What are your clarifications on these issues? Sorry for being that guy, but when you learn how to read as a child by your father teaching you with shop manuals and rulebooks this is who you get, LOL. Thanks for your hard work buddy!

Soooo... you couldn'ta brought this s#it up back in OCTOBER during the rules committee meeting.... lol :lol:

[sheispoison]

Hey Dennis,
Thanks for finding all the grey areas! Haha! I'm at work and giving you the answer from my phone is a pain in the ass. When I get home tonight I'll get you the answers to your questions. Thanks for the patience.
Carl

[KFinn]

Hey Carl. I decided to run a couple supersport classes this year. In the process of switching back to the OEM clutch, and purchasing DOT tires for my bike, I double checked my other stock components to verify all the rules have been met. Here are some questions I had about the supersport rules:

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.e I can not run the Kit valve springs which several people recommended me to purchase. I was wondering if you know of any valve spring shims available, as these are allowed. Maybe Bart has some ideas on who makes these too.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.F.c does not allow for use of aftermarket or Kit timing chain tensioners, is this something we can address before the next rule change, as it is a slight reliability issue on some motorcycles with poor chain tensioners for medium to high rpm operation, during engine braking.

According to supersport rule 2.2.2.A I noticed that none of the EVAP or AIR emmisions components can be removed, which all of mine are still present, but with the unlimited origin of ECU's they could be inoperative. Seems this may need some clarification.

According to Technical Requirements 5.2.1 or supersport rules: I does not specify that we can add frame sliders, fork sliders, or swingarm sliders to the motorcycle, as a deviation from showroom stock. Is this an oversight, and it "Is" allowed, but just got left out of the rulebook?

These were some things that raised some questions for me. If I remember correctly there may have been some bikes entered in the supersport class in the past that were in violation of some of these rules, now that I have preppared my bike in accordance with them. I would hate for there to be any dispute caused by not enforcing the rulebook as it is written, so the competition is as fair an equal for everyone as possible. What are your clarifications on these issues? Sorry for being that guy, but when you learn how to read as a child by your father teaching you with shop manuals and rulebooks this is who you get, LOL. Thanks for your hard work buddy!

Soooo... you couldn'ta brought this s#it up back in OCTOBER during the rules committee meeting.... lol :lol:No he couldn't have. He is a bit slow and was probably too busy bench racing all year long till standard racer procrastination crunch time. :lol:

[Fastt Racing]

Thanks for explaining it correctly Kevin. My vote was for option 2 a few weeks ago. I had read all of the rules that applied to me, and didn't need to know the supersport rules last season. Again, I appologize to the whole board for the cluster, but I figure it would be better to clear up some questions that a few of us "New Experts" have about some of these rules before the season starts. Thanks Carl!

[KFinn]

I am in favor of waiting to see if he finishes in front of me and then disqualify him. If he finishes behind me than no need to bother! :-)

[TRK]

Let me start with this, as quoted from the rulebook: The purpose of this rulebook is to run an orderly, competitive and fair race series emphasizing safety of all involved. The rules are not intended to allow one racer to defeat another with the rulebook rather than on the racetrack. The rules are not intended to allow one racer to harass another in anonymity. Protests deemed capricious or found to involve something that would not reasonably be expected to affect the actual race outcome or cause safety problems may be denied, or assessed with a fine, rather than a penalty.

With that said, I believe Carl Sorenson will comment on the aftermarket valve springs and pair valve. It is my belief that over the course of the season Carl will focus on checking illegal modifications that provide racers a competitive advantage when on the racetrack. For example there are rules that outlaw a horn on a bike. If a second place rider protests the racer who just won because he/she knows the horn on the winner’s bike is still connected, should the winner be disqualified? Should the second place rider be granted the race win? In a case like this the board will refer to the above-mentioned paragraph.

Yes, you can run frame sliders. I believe this falls under common sense, safety, crash protection, case guards, fuel tank guards, etc. These items make racing safer and don't offer a performance advantage. In the event of a crash they may allow you to continue racing for the season because you didn't destroy your motorcycle during a simple low side. Some racetracks require frame sliders to prevent your bike damaging the track. A shark fin for the swing arm or a front brake lever guard are other examples of items in the safety arena. No one wants to have their fingers sawed off by the chain and we have seen the huge get offs on the world stage from contact with a front brake lever. When it comes to the addition of these and other items safety reigns supreme.

Your bike needs swing arm spools to put the bike on a stand. If they also function as sliders, so be it.

If your bike is truly a time bomb without an aftermarket cam chain adjuster bring it up to the VP of Rules & Tech: Carl Sorensen Email: sheispoison@gmail.com. I doubt he will have any issue with a tensioner, because it doesn’t provide any advantage on the racetrack. If it prevents your bike from dumping several quarts of oil on the racetrack from a broken cam chain I am sure he will take that into consideration.

The rulebook was created and is updated in attempt to create a level playing field, so we appreciate the feedback and questions. This type of feedback would be awesome come the end of the season when we hold our rules meeting. Please stay involved and post up if you have more questions.

[rforsythe]

For example there are rules that outlaw a horn on a bike. If a second place rider protests the racer who just won because he/she knows the horn on the winner’s bike is still connected, should the winner be disqualified?

It's also important to know the context sometimes. The horn rule was enacted because a certain fast expert was honking his as he went by; many of us thought it was hilarious, but I guess it startled a few riders and they claimed it was a safety issue at rule time.

Sometimes enforcement (and protest) of the rules gets a little silly and we need to revert to common sense, like the frame sliders and cam chain tensioner bit - many if not every bike on the grid will have sliders, anything without a cool Ducati stand needs spools because the kickstand is not permitted by the rulebook as well, and a lot of us have tensioners for obvious reasons if you've seen a stock one go bad at 12k RPM.

Unfortunately though there are people who have tried to take a more vague approach to rules as a winning strategy, by exploiting loopholes rather than fit within the spirit of SS. The rules there today are as much an evolution of that process as anything else. I think the "catch all" phrasing about lame protests is meant to protect common sense modifications from being caught up in no-cheating language, and I've never seen the board uphold protest on something like a chain tensioner. That said, it's definitely good to clarify if you feel it's missing something or incorrect. :)

[TRK]

The horn was just an example and my fictional racer never actually used the horn during the race :D. It was only still connected. You could replace horn with carbon fiber fender, anodized oil cap, a Mohawk and some feathers on your helmet and leathers that someone thinks is an addition to make you more aerodynamic, etc........the point i was trying to make is there is a spirit to the rulebook.

[rforsythe]

Yeah, that was my point as well. I just remembered why that horn rule came to be and it made me laugh.

[Clarkie]

So does that mean you can take a stock R6 clutch pressure plate and machine it to the same specs as an aftermarket slipper clutch pressure plate, but still run the (illegal for the class) slipper clutch but use the stock 'looking' pressure plate so when the bike gets torn down and then gets passed as legal, or not?

No that would never happen in the MRA, what was I thinking! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[T Baggins]

Nuthin's illegal till you get caught... isn't that how the saying goes? :shock:

I think the vast majority of folks are legal, but who knows...?

[Clarkie]

Nuthin's illegal till you get caught... isn't that how the saying goes?
Shit if the MRA President say it's ok as long as Carl doesn't catch you then go for it! :lol:

[TRK]

So does that mean you can take a stock R6 clutch pressure plate and machine it to the same specs as an aftermarket slipper clutch pressure plate, but still run the (illegal for the class) slipper clutch but use the stock 'looking' pressure plate so when the bike gets torn down and then gets passed as legal, or not?

No that would never happen in the MRA, what was I thinking! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Creative, but this isn't the "spirit" I was referring to.

[rforsythe]

Nuthin's illegal till you get caught... isn't that how the saying goes?
Shit if the MRA President say it's ok as long as Carl doesn't catch you then go for it! :lol:

Haha well he's not far off. Generally a bike isn't getting torn to the innards without a formal protest, and for that to happen someone has to put up hard cash to make it happen. Anyone halfway good at cheating knows you don't tell everyone else how you're doing it, meaning nobody really knows WHAT to protest, just that they should probably do it somewhere. I *think* Carl could tear it down on his own decision to do so, but that is a fucking lot of work for a fishing expedition.

[Clarkie]

So you know I am joking right.... :lol:

If someone really wants to cheat and knows the right people, I dont know of a tech inspector that could find how or if they really cheated. Should people go to the extremes seen a while ago in the MRA heck no, it's club racing and there isnt enough money in club racing to justify it. To properly inspect the engines, frames and electronics it will take days and a lot of money. Tech inspection will confidently choose an item to look at/check which I think is a great way of doing it.

Trust me when I say it would have been ridiculously easy for me to cheat with the Ninja 250's, not that anyone did of course... But I am just some guy who beat people on a legal SS bike when they ran illegal bikes making the win even more satisfying. But hey I am just some f*cken foreign guy, what do I know about the price of milk :D

[rforsythe]

Trust me when I say it would have been ridiculously easy for me to cheat with the Ninja 250's

I hear Lisa is faster than you though.

[Clarkie]

She has a cheater bike! :lol:

[sheispoison]

Ok, this thread went all over the place... But back to the original questions. I want to just back up what Shannon said first about the rulebook isn't there to help a slower rider win, it's there to create a level playing field. That being said there definitely are grey areas in it, and it looks like Dennis found a couple of them. My thoughts are this- if you're running kit springs because you have illegal kit cams and valves then you're cheating. If you're running kit springs without kit cams and valves because it make the motor more reliable with you're legal kit ecu and harness then the springs offer no performance advantage and it's ok. I don't want to see anyone's bike blow up and oil down the track and risk you crashing or worse taking someone else out. The manual cam chain tensioner falls into the same category, no performance advantage but it makes you're bike more reliable so I think it's ok. I think Shannon addressed the sliders issue and I agree 100%.

There are always going to be way to cheat. And there are plenty of clever guys out there that could do it to where it would never get discovered. That being said ask Clarkie about how good it is to beat another good rider legit. It comes back to what Shannon said about the spirit of the class. We are all out there for the same reason, to have fun. Let's keep it clean ladies and gentlemen.

[Clarkie]

=D> =D> =D>

[dave.gallant]

So what I hear is that my $5000 Motec traction control unit is perfectly legal if I remember to bolt on some frame sliders?

Superb!

[Clarkie]

$5000? You must be getting sponsored! 8)

[dave.gallant]

$5000? You must be getting sponsored! 8)

They don't call him "Sexy" Ben Fox for nothing.

[sheispoison]

So what I hear is that my $5000 Motec traction control unit is perfectly legal if I remember to bolt on some frame sliders?

Superb!

If you can find stock wheel speed sensors on your bike, sure!

[dave.gallant]

So what I hear is that my $5000 Motec traction control unit is perfectly legal if I remember to bolt on some frame sliders?

Superb!

If you can find stock wheel speed sensors on your bike, sure!

Magnets on the head of each disk bolt work well, but if you need more dings you can put them in the rivets that float the rotor. Or, just say fukitol and use a rate-of-change map and tell everyone "thats the rev limiter....at 9.5K RPM...only on some corners..."

Thats enough for now. I am going back out to the garage to machine down the pressure plate of the stock clutch hub then press in eccentric spacers into my stock triples to change the offset!

[Clarkie]

Like the speed sensors on any of the ABS sport bikes...... :D

Dave dont forget to grind of the kit marking on the cams, those are an easy giveaway and machine the valve pockets deeper on the high compression pistons :wink: Nah Rate of Change TC is childplay, if you want to win in the MRA you are going to need the good stuff

[dave.gallant]

Traction control is for big bike wussies. 250 ninjas is where the real racing is at.

[Clarkie]

You want to ride to 60hp CBR250R-ish I want to build? :D

[sheispoison]

Ok, I guess you old salty dogs will always have tricks up your sleeves...

[Fastt Racing]

Wow. I thought this would be a shit storm, hahaha. Thanks for the clarifications so far Carl. Can't wait to hang out and rip it with all you guys this season! See you soon.

[KFinn]

I guess a guy can't get away with a good joke and ribbing at his friend. :cry:

[Fastt Racing]

Hey Kevin, you know all about sticking your foot in your mouth. I was trying not to. How am I doing so far, hahahaha. I had an affinity for your comment. Here is how I percieved it : Dumb and Dumber quote " So you're saying there's a chance" that I may beat you, LOL.

[rforsythe]

Traction control is for big bike wussies. 250 ninjas is where the real racing is at.

Ask Tbag about cheating in the 250 cup. :lol: (Of course when you supply 3/4 of the grid with the same "cheater" mod inadvertently, it's less of a factor.)

[Clarkie]

I want to build someone a CBR250R but Tony will get all butt hurt and tear it down to the blinker fluid :cry:

[dave.gallant]

I want to build someone a CBR250R but Tony will get all butt hurt and tear it down to the blinker fluid :cry:

I'll ride it!!

(but it will need to make 72HP because Tbagger is a cheating bastard!)

[Clarkie]

If we can use a Motec TC system worth more than the bike you are on!

[marty]

Ok, I guess you old salty dogs will always have tricks up your sleeves...

Haha! He called you two old! :lol:

[dave.gallant]

Ok, I guess you old salty dogs will always have tricks up your sleeves...

Haha! He called you two old! :lol:

:D

[Clarkie]

If the adult diaper fits! :lol:

[T Baggins]

I want to build someone a CBR250R but Tony will get all butt hurt and tear it down to the blinker fluid :cry:

Ok, bring ME into it why don'tcha :shock:

I'm sure you're only kidding, or at least half way kidding... but I can't pass up an opportunity to verbally joust with my old buddy Clarkie...

TWO things:

1) You obviously haven't been watching the 250 results very closely, because if you had - you'd know that BEFORE I got all butt-hurt about it, somebody would actually have to BEAT ME on your silly CBR250R cheater contraption. Soooo... unless you put Schrammy or Hammer on it - it's just not gonna happen... 8) You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Clarkie King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

2) Quite the contrary to your belief, not only have I "not" been the head of the charge on 250 teardowns (it would be inappropriate for me to anyway since I'm a competitor in the class) - but as Ralph alluded to, MY bike was found illegal at the teardown at HPR. Mine along with ALL of the other bikes I brought in from California to start the class. :oops: Accordingly, since I supplied them - I paid the fines for all who were affected, and subsequently provided each of them with the necessary parts to make the bikes legal. Funny thing was when we put the part on, we ALL went faster. So cheating or not, clearly there was no performance advantage.

3) If and when you are able to build a "legal" CBR250R that is capable of beating me, and it is found to have "blinker fluid" post inspection - then yes, your rider and bike will be disqualified because it is quite clear that "blinker fluid" is not a factory installed accessory, and therefore by the MRA Rulebook - illegal. :lol:

As I said earlier in this thread,

Nuthin's illegal till you get caught...

Ultimate problem is - WHEN you get caught.

[dave.gallant]

You don't frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called "Clarkie King," you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.

http://monty-python-and-the-holy-grail.com/images/scenes/monty_python_holy_grail_script_090_french_taunting .jpg

[Clarkie]

LOL Tony I never implied or said I would be the one racing said CBR250RRR afterall I would want it to have a chance of winning. Ryan Andrews seems to do ok on his in the CMRA 8) Just remember about what they say about people who assume things :wink:

LMAO @ Dave :lol: