Would you buy a racebike without a title?

[mkdiehl]

I am 99% of the way to purchasing a bike.
I asked about the title and was told, "let me check when i get home, the original owner bought it as a salvaged bike but not sure if he got it titled. I didn't get it titled.....".

Thoughts?

[KFinn]

To me it doesn't matter too much. It is always nicer to have a title but if you have no intent of doing anything other than parting it out or racing it, you should be fine. You can always sell it to another racer down the road.

[mkdiehl]

Thanks Kfinn

It's a race bike...so will be sold to another racer.

Concern for me, or concern for next buyer, is how do we know it isn't stolen?

[KFinn]

You'd have to have the vin checked by Five Ohh/Troopers

[DOUBLE A]

as long as it goes fast and turns heads... :D

[Bueller999]

When you go to sell it you will run into buyers having the same dlemia you are facing now. The title issue may make it harder to sell.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Personally, I'd never buy a bike without an MSO or title. One person on the net elsewhere summed it up nicely, "If you don't have the title, you don't own the bike."

Read the 4th paragraph at http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?next=yes&article=11164 Racetracks are notorius places for finding stolen vehicles.

[mkdiehl]

He has sent me a bill of sale from the Salvage company....does that change anyone's mind?

[JimWilson29]

He has sent me a bill of sale from the Salvage company....does that change anyone's mind?

Thats all I have with my frame.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

He has sent me a bill of sale from the Salvage company....does that change anyone's mind?

It's not our minds you have to change, it's the Colorado Attorney General's. A bill of sale isn't a title. If the police decide to confiscate bikes like they did with the CMRA, you have no proof that it's your bike.

If you want a title, here's the Colorado Surety bonding process. http://tinyurl.com/78xgh75 I've done it and it's why I'll never buy a vehicle without a title again.

[mkdiehl]

thanks for the help J.B.
I appreciate your time.

It is clear that i won't get a title for it since i don't meet the "record search must be within a year" and the BOS is from '08.

So the real question, to you Jim, is why do I need a racebike to have a title in your opinion?

thanks again
matt

[The GECCO]

So the real question, to you Jim, is why do I need a racebike to have a title in your opinion?

1) Easier to resell when the time comes.
2) To prove it's yours if you even need to. If you're ever pulled over while transporting the bike and the trooper asks you for proof of ownership, and you don't have it, you'll soon wish you did.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

So the real question, to you Jim, is why do I need a racebike to have a title in your opinion?
Don't confuse a title with a registration. You need to have a registration to operate the vehicle on public roads.

The title is proof that you own the vehicle regardless of use. The title is issued to the person (or institution) who has legal claim to the vehicle. That's why you don't have the title for your car (or your house) if you have a loan on it. The leinholder holds the title and has legal claim to that property if you fail to meet your obligation to them (aka repossession).

So if there is an outstanding loan on that bike and the leinholder (bank, credit union, dealer, whatever) finds you have it, they can have it repossessed.

You can do nothing and hope you never get your VIN checked, or you can go through the surety bond process and get a legal title.

It is clear that i won't get a title for it since i don't meet the "record search must be within a year" and the BOS is from '08.
Without a title, your bill of sale is worthless since the person who sold you the bike never legally owned it. The "record search within a year" means filing this paperwork - http://tinyurl.com/7478h7a - and of course paying the fee for it.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but it's possible you bought a hot bike. The only way to prove you didn't is to get a title.

[mkdiehl]

Thanks again Jim.
The good news is that i haven't bought anything yet.

Just doing my research.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Thanks again Jim.
The good news is that i haven't bought anything yet.

Just doing my research.

<whew> good thinking! It's much easier for the owner to get a replacement title than to go through the surety bond process. If the seller isn't willing to get a replacement, I'd presume it's either stolen or he owes money on it and is trying to off it.

[T Baggins]

Thanks again Jim.
The good news is that i haven't bought anything yet.

Just doing my research.

<whew> good thinking! It's much easier for the owner to get a replacement title than to go through the surety bond process. If the seller isn't willing to get a replacement, I'd presume it's either stolen or he owes money on it and is trying to off it.

Or he knows it's a pain in the ass to get and doesn't want to bother with it.

That said, I've bought both ways - half of the 250's I brought back didn't have titles. I've been lucky I guess.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

So, do you guys carry your titles to the track with you? If you were pulled over on the way to the track and the cops were to ask for proof of ownership, would you have it with you? Or if the cops were to lock down HPR and search for stolen bikes what proof would you have that your racebike is yours? I can't see myself leaving the titles to our bikes in our trailer because what if someone pulled a RYBO on us and swiped the trailer and the bikes were in it? Then they would have the bikes and the titles. So, what do you guys do to prove that you own the bike?




Btw. If anything happens, I'm blaming Tony. He just admitted about half of the 250s he bought didn't have titles. Even if our 250 isn't one of the ones he bought, I'm still blaming him.



Just kidding Tony.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

So, do you guys carry your titles to the track with you? ... So, what do you guys do to prove that you own the bike?
I'd have to ask TimA to make sure but I believe if they run my VIN, I come up as the title holder. I do know it won't come up as stolen.

I guess this is a tempest in a teapot. I'm sure places like Tri-City have to deal with missing titles all the time.

It's kind of funny to think of this in terms of real estate. "Hey, I'll sell you this 100 acres up near Laramie. I don't have the deed, but I'll write you a bill of sale."

[myworld60]

If they ever did lock down HPR and do vin checks. Does it matter who ownes the bike if it doesnt come up stolen in the system? What about the racer that built his bike from spare parts and bought a new frame from the factory with no vin?

Just some thoughts.

[mkdiehl]

agree with you myworld60.

in the end i viewed this as the same purchase as a lawn mower......it is a race bike that will never be on the street.....it isn't life changing money.....I have several bills of sale on its history......and i spent too much time worrying about it.

if i raced Brewer's bike, i would have a different attitude!!

i bought it and hope to keep in good enough shape to resell it.

[rforsythe]

So the real question, to you Jim, is why do I need a racebike to have a title in your opinion?

1) Easier to resell when the time comes.
2) To prove it's yours if you even need to. If you're ever pulled over while transporting the bike and the trooper asks you for proof of ownership, and you don't have it, you'll soon wish you did.

I agree with #1, though for race bikes it's not always as important.

On #2:
1. They need probable cause to search my trailer.
2. There is no law against transporting a bike that isn't titled to me, nor am I required by law to carry proof of anything related to something in my trailer. Unless they run the VIN and it comes up hot, I haven't done anything wrong.

[DOUBLE A]

So the real question, to you Jim, is why do I need a racebike to have a title in your opinion?

1) Easier to resell when the time comes.
2) To prove it's yours if you even need to. If you're ever pulled over while transporting the bike and the trooper asks you for proof of ownership, and you don't have it, you'll soon wish you did.

I agree with #1, though for race bikes it's not always as important.

On #2:
1. They need probable cause to search my trailer.
2. There is no law against transporting a bike that isn't titled to me, nor am I required by law to carry proof of anything related to something in my trailer. Unless they run the VIN and it comes up hot, I haven't done anything wrong.

+1! :D

[jgixxer1]

If you want a title, here's the Colorado Surety bonding process. http://tinyurl.com/78xgh75 I've done it and it's why I'll never buy a vehicle without a title again.

How much did it cost you to get a bonded title?

I recently bought a bike from a guy who said he had a clean title. He delivers almost to Pueblo all the way from Northglenn only to tell me the title is clean but not in his name. I wasn't gonna buy it, but he assured me that he was gunna take care if it and get me a title that I could register in my name. A week later he decided that "taking care of it" meant giving me a couple phone numbers so I could do it myself. I called the numbers and havn't got a definitive response, so next step is thinking about going the bonded route or selling the bike with a bill of sale which I really don't want to do since I havn't even ridden it yet.

I know, shame on me for doing the deal, but judging from his character, a hand shake, and plenty of reassurance I felt good about it.

What was the cost and how long did it take to bond title?

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Unless they run the VIN and it comes up hot, I haven't done anything wrong.
Ralph, I know you know better than that. If *you* stole the bike whether someone runs the VIN or not, you've done something wrong. You just haven't got caught for it.
If you bought a stolen bike or a bike that has a lien on it that wasn't paid, you've done something wrong.
Pleading ignorance ("I didn't know it was stolen.") is a pretty weak defense.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

What was the cost and how long did it take to bond title?
As I remember, it took about 4 weeks counting the going back an forth to various agencies (motor vehicles, bonding agency, highway patrol) and waiting for lien searches. As for cost, it depends on how much the bike is appraised for. You have to post a bond for 2x the value of the bike. My recollection was it cost about $800 total for a bike worth $3500.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Jgixxer1. Did you get a title with the bike but it just wasn't in that guys name? If the guy bought the bike and just never bothered to get the title changed over to his name, you still have a title. Just pretend you bought it from the person who is listed on the title and go to the DMV and get it titled in your name. Its not like you asked the guy for id when you bought it.

[jgixxer1]

I only wish it were that simple. The original owner on the front of the title signed it over to "Dealer A". "Dealer A" signed it over to "Dealer B". "Dealer B" signed it over to another individual which is not the guy who I bought it from.

It's proving difficult to get ahold of the last guy, especially since I'm all the way down here in Pueblo. *sigh*

[mkdiehl]

....just throw away the title and live like i am.

it is invigorating!!!!!!!

:lol:

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Why do you need to get ahold of the last guy? Did he sign the title? Have you taken it to the DMV to see if you can just get a title in your name?

[jgixxer1]

Yes, "Dealer B" signed the title over to the last guy and he signed it in the buyer's signature. If he hadn't, I'd be in the clear and could go get title in my name with minimal taxes since "Dealer B" didn't fill in purchase price.

I need the last guy to go down and transfer title to his name then sign it over to me.

Since nobody ever did a title transfer, I even tried contacting the original owner on the front of title to see if he would go get a duplicate title for $8.20 then sign it over to me. I left 2 voicemails and like 10 texts explaining the situation and even offered him $400 cash to do me a solid, all to no avail. He won't even answer back. I don't know if he thinks its a conspiracy of he just doesn't like free money. Unless he's trying to plot now that he knows the whole story, and as far as the state is concerned he still owns the bike.

IDK....I wish I could just walk into the DMV, give them my sob story and walk out with a title...

[AdamandNoahsdad]

The DMV is hip to the old "no, I only paid $12 for this bike" thing. They will tax you on whatever the price of the bike was when it was new and figure in the age on it for taxes. That part will still hurt. Plus you may have to pay sales tax on it. Just scratch out the last guys name and tell the DMV someone signed it in the wrong spot.

[Bueller999]

The DMV is hip to the old "no, I only paid $12 for this bike" thing. They will tax you on whatever the price of the bike was when it was new and figure in the age on it for taxes. That part will still hurt. Plus you may have to pay sales tax on it. Just scratch out the last guys name and tell the DMV someone signed it in the wrong spot.

I always buy my bikes for $500 and they never question it, and that is what I pay taxes on.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

I got hammered on my trailer when I went to get plates for it. They ignored what was written on the title for how much I paid and made me pay sales tax on what they felt it was worth even though I bought it from a private seller.

[jbnwc]

If they ever did lock down HPR and do vin checks. Does it matter who ownes the bike if it doesnt come up stolen in the system? What about the racer that built his bike from spare parts and bought a new frame from the factory with no vin?

Just some thoughts.

As long as we aren't a communist country, this will never happen. The police have no right to take anything of ours simply because we don't have proof of ownership. Title or no title, unless THEY have proof that it isn't yours, they can't take it.

[DUCDOC]

I know the original owner( Former employer ) & seller, team mate!
The bike is clean & I know you will get your paperwork...... Don't worry & you have 1 hell of a bike!

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

As long as we aren't a communist country, this will never happen. The police have no right to take anything of ours simply because we don't have proof of ownership. Title or no title, unless THEY have proof that it isn't yours, they can't take it.
Really?

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?next=yes&article=11164
From the article, "police impounded several machines when their riders could not prove ownership ... "

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100531
From the post, "A rider with a 2006 GSX-R600 had suspicious VIN numbers was detained and later arrested."

[loujr]

I know the original owner( Former employer ) & seller, team mate!
The bike is clean & I know you will get your paperwork...... Don't worry & you have 1 hell of a bike!

+1

[jgixxer1]

...you have 1 hell of a bike!

Definitly can't argue with that...

[GM Man]

What if the bike has no vin and you get pulled over with it in the back of your truck/trailer? Could they take it based on the fact that it has no vin? Or how could they prove if it was stolen?