Large race grids?

[Clarkie]

I was talking with a mate of mine in Aussie who club races and he said just last weekend their 600 grid had 40+ racers on the grid. Must be something in the water down there....

[T Baggins]

Or perhaps the Australian economy isn't quite as 'effed as the US econony right now? :?

[Clarkie]

Trust me it isnt great there at all, I was just more surprised as a club race (similar to a MRA Weekend) only had 20-25 on the 600 grids when I was there in the late 90's. Maybe the fact they have had Doohan, Corser and Stoner as World Champions helps, but I know the drive over there is (and was) to get to Europe to race. While their demestic series is ok, it is just used as a stepping stone to bigger things.

[T Baggins]

Do they have fewer classes to choose from? Like if 250, 600, 750, & 1000 were your "only" options - that would certainly make the grid sizes larger - but wouldn't necessarily increase the total number of participants.

Just curious.

[Clarkie]

You maybe be right Tony, no idea what classes they have. I dont think they have a lot of the redundant classes like here in the US though. I guess sometimes having too much of a choice is a bad thing as people dont really jump in.

A the dilemma of having to many things to pick and choose from :D

[benfoxmra95]

You maybe be right Tony, no idea what classes they have. I dont think they have a lot of the redundant classes like here in the US though. I guess sometimes having too much of a choice is a bad thing as people dont really jump in.

A the dilemma of having to many things to pick and choose from :D


hmmmm....I 'think' there's quite a few people out there that just wouldn't show up if they only had a choice between 600 or 1000. and do come and race because of the different options for bikes. :-k

[Clarkie]

Oh I am not talking specifically about the MRA, just club racing in the US in general. I think the choice of race classes is good, to a point. You may have the same number of overall racers, but the racing is always better when there are more than 8 people on the grid. I would rather have a good battle for 5th than ride around by myself for 5th place, but that's just me

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I was talking with a mate of mine in Aussie who club races and he said just last weekend their 600 grid had 40+ racers on the grid.

https://my.afmracing.org/ti/afm/ajax/results/tdresults_print.html?raid=1602


Must be something in the water down there....

I guess it's coming out of the pacific ocean.

[Clarkie]

All that salt air must be waking racers up a little and getting them hungry (to quote Scott Russell) or something :D

When I was racing the Aprilia Cup series in 2000 it was awesome racing as it was 5-6 guys battling for the win every race. I raced twins in New Hampshire for 3 years and while racing against Eric Wood, (who was and still is one of the fastest racers in the country) was cool, I enjoyed the MRA more as it was a battle with a lot of riders to place top 5.

For me competition was why I turned up, battling with one guy is cool, battling with 5 guys is cooler.

[loujr]

I don't know how to solve low numbers on the grid, but people who race "for fun" have to have fun....riding around all alone isn't fun. I just don't know how to get more people to get out there. I wish I did.

[cromer611]

Must be something in the water down there....

that or entry fees are $20 bucks.

road racing is slowly getting killed off in the US i feel. if your in europe and you say that you road race people know what your talking about.
you say you road race in colorado people say, "oh up at bandimere?"
"no, like going around corners with our knees on the ground, you know the racing that takes skill and balls."
"Oh i would love to see that, thats crazy shit. where do you guys race?"
"Only about a hour east of denver depending where u live."
"Oh, way out there? yeah, yeah ill have to come check that out....."
never see them again

[cromer611]

how much are MRA race expenses vrs AMA race expenses is what i wanna know.

[Clarkie]

Racers over here have no excuse, maybe having it too good for too long is taking it's toll now things are tight? Who knows.

My mate sent me this from Aussie, bear in mind right now AUD $96 is equal to USD $100. You guys have it good! Anyone want to export some tires to Aussie, I am heading over that way in a month :D
===================
Club Days....

The St George (local club) day on the weekend cost $455 (USD$470). I also entered a second class, so that was another $75 (USD$77) that included 1 spot in a garage.

For that I got on saturday, a ten min practise for each class (which was 4 laps each)

then a ten minute qualifying for each class (again 4 laps)

WIth 40 plus bikes in both BEARS and 600's, it was kinda hectic, and basically impossible to get a clear lap in.

Then after lunch we had 2 x 5 lap races in each class.

Sunday was again a 10 min warmup in both classes, followed by 3 x 5 lap races.

CLasses available are 600's, Bears, unlimited, 125's/250mono/400's, plus like a class with a few categories for bike made from about the 80's up to about 2005 or something?


Tyres, well the Pirellis cost me like $520 (USD$538) a set. Actually the 190 rear is a bit more so maybe now say $530 (USD$548) ish. The Pirellis supersport tyres are about $40 (USD$41) a set more.

The Dunlop like control street tyre 600's use is $470 (USD$486) a set.

the Dunlop control slicks are $590 (USD$610) a set.

DUnlop Ntech's are like $830 (USD$858) a set.

Not really sure on any other brand tyre costs?? I think Craig WHite sells the Bridgestones for about $450ish to $500.

As a comparison, the Formula Xtreme (Series below AMA level series, this FUSA or WERA racing) series costs me $385 (USD$397) entry, plus $95 (USD$98) for friday practise plus $75 (USD$77) garage spot.

For that I get 5 x 15 min sessions friday, then saturday a 18min qualifying plus 3 races, same again Sunday. No prize money for either.

And no we dont have any "contingency" money like you guys seem to have over there also!!!

the prize money thing is a bit of a sore point. They stopped paying it to pay for the TV coverage, as they say everyone benefits from that, to attract sponsers.....yeah righto......

[Clarkie]

SO $1157 for 2 races and a set of control tires, on shitty track (Eastern Creek used to be ok before the surface went to shit)

[loujr]

"no, like going around corners with our knees on the ground, you know the racing that takes skill and balls."



So you are telling me Going down a 1/4 mile in 12 seconds or less in a car, with a roll cage, and a simpson helmet isn't skill and balls? :oops:
Damn it....I thought I had it all right!
Well thanks for shattering what little self esteem I had left....JERK

[glenngsxr]

Tires have gotten out of effin control. How can they expect anyone to turn up at those prices???

I wonder what the profit margins are like from the factory on a set of tires. I know everyone runs around saying "well they don't make much off tires", but me thinks this is probably not the case.

[Clarkie]

Not just tires, look at their entry fees compared to the MRA fees :wink:
You guys inthe MRA pay USD$290 (AUS$280) for 5 classes, he pays USD$470 (AUD$455) for the same.

[T Baggins]

Not just tires, look at their entry fees compared to the MRA fees :wink:
You guys inthe MRA pay USD$290 (AUS$280) for 5 classes, he pays USD$470 (AUD$455) for the same.

Sounds like we should raise entry fees... if they're getting 40 + guys on a single grid "down under" at those prices - maybe we're underselling our program?

So I'm thinking if we charged double, it would attract more people as they would see what an amazingly exclusive sport this is and would clamor to be part of it?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[cromer611]

SO $1157 for 2 races and a set of control tires, on shitty track (Eastern Creek used to be ok before the surface went to shit)
Holy blister busting ballsack!

[gsnyder828]

Sounds like we should raise entry fees... if they're getting 40 + guys on a single grid "down under" at those prices - maybe we're underselling our program?

So I'm thinking if we charged double, it would attract more people as they would see what an amazingly exclusive sport this is and would clamor to be part of it?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tony - I know you're saying that in jest, but there is some potential truth there.

I think I recall you saying it took $35k to hold an event @ HPR? If so then it takes what, $233/rider if we bring in 150 riders (neglecting other revenue sources), or $350/rider if we only bring in 100 - just to break even.

So I wonder - how many racer's would drop if rates went up by $100 per weekend? I don't know the answer, but I do know that it wouldn't affect my decision to race - entry fees are only part of my annual budget, and other areas (new bike, motor builds, etc.) are fungible. I suspect it wouldn't affect a lot of other folk's decision to race either - especially seeing the size/qty of the race rigs showing up compared to when I started in '01.

That said, there are certainly folks we'd lose.

With a smaller core of racers I can think of a bunch of benefits... I'm sure a few folks will pipe in on the downsides... 8)

Either way - $110 for 2 endurance races and a weekend of practice seems unsustainable - you can't run an open track day @ HPR for that. It doesn't make sense to me that it's $150 for 1 sprint but $110 for 2 endurance races.

I feel that the pricing of endurance races is a perverse incentive that's driving down $$/racer - given the choice of running 2 endurance races for $110 or 2 sprints for $210, what rational person would run sprints?

Shouldn't 2 endurance races at least cost the same as 3 sprints?

g

[T Baggins]

Shouldn't 2 endurance races at least cost the same as 3 sprints?

g

We're looking at "who is racing in what" right now. We do have a handful of "Endurance Only" riders if we bumped the endurance price significantly - we may lose those riders.

Additionally, that would even further impact our Sprint Racers as the endurances aren't currently "counted" against sprint race entries. So they'd pay MORE for Endurance AND then still have to "start over" for the sprints.

Another suggestion (Frank Diranna) was to just make the endurances part of the normal cost structure, so whether you're doing sprints, endurance, whatever... the incremental cost per race is identical.

[glenngsxr]

It costs $35k for the MRA to run at HPR? A track we are part owners of and raised money for, but only $29k for PPIR?????

[Clarkie]

Sounds like we should raise entry fees... if they're getting 40 + guys on a single grid "down under" at those prices - maybe we're underselling our program?

So I'm thinking if we charged double, it would attract more people as they would see what an amazingly exclusive sport this is and would clamor to be part of it?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I honestly think club racers (in general) have had it so good for so long now things are tight they are just leaving and finding something else to do. Losing 2nd Creek was a pretty big blow for the MRA scene (I have heard) as it went from $25 practice days up to now when people have to pay what everyone else in the country pays. I know people pissed and moaned about having to pay more for trackdays, gee welcome to the rest of the world :roll:

The cost of racing is all perception, if you have to spend more money than you did last time, it seems expensive even if it is still cheaper than elsewhere.

I think Rybo should charge $100 a lap for his trackdays, then racing would seem cheap! :D

[glenngsxr]

Let's face it, we have a small pool of folks that would even consider getting on a "crotch rocket" and dragging a knee. Now......make 9% of those folks unemployed. Makes it a touch harder, even though you are interested as hell, you can't fund it.

Tony,
Any idea how many license holders we had in 2007? How many do we have today?

[T Baggins]

It costs $35k for the MRA to run at HPR? A track we are part owners of and raised money for, but only $29k for PPIR?????

It has been as high as $35K, but generally less at HPR. The diff in cost, primarily, is:

The insurance is $2k higher at HPR, and we pay a per bike fee on top of the base rent.

The insurance is $2k lower at PPIR, AND we keep the garage rental income.

[T Baggins]

Any idea how many license holders we had in 2007? How many do we have today?

Rybo has that info, but it was typically as high as 300 licenses, but this year under 200. That's $15K in membership income right off the top.

Then add that we had 150-160 riders at $220 - $240 per rider entry fees so $33K - $38K in entry fees every weekend.

This year we're averaging about 120 riders x $180 per rider +/- or $22K in entry fees every weekend.

That puts a tremendous load on SuperStreet and Spectators to fill the difference...

[glenngsxr]

It costs $35k for the MRA to run at HPR? A track we are part owners of and raised money for, but only $29k for PPIR?????

It has been as high as $35K, but generally less at HPR. The diff in cost, primarily, is:

The insurance is $2k higher at HPR, and we pay a per bike fee on top of the base rent.

The insurance is $2k lower at PPIR, AND we keep the garage rental income.

Wow, I guess I am just in awe at how much it costs to run at OUR own track. The insurance I can understand maybe. Why is it so high though?

[oldtimer]

CLasses available are 600's, Bears, unlimited, 125's/250mono/400's, plus like a class with a few categories for bike made from about the 80's up to about 2005 or something?



Sounds like they run less classes than the MRA so that should drive up entries per class. And there's merit in that model... But I have to agree with Ben, we have a lot of racers who look for a niche class to excel in. If we only had 5 classes we would probably lose riders who feel like they'd never have a chance to be competitive *somewhere*. I don't know an easy answer for the dilemma of small grids.

[T Baggins]

Glenn, it costs that much to run ANYWHERE we run... more or less.

Track rental is as low as $6k for Pueblo (for now)

$11,000 for PPIR

generally about $10,500 for HPR

Insurance is either $2200 or $4200 depending on track

2 ambulances

12 - 22 corner crew paid

7 paid board members

cornerworker lunches

cornerworker hotel

Board hotel/per diem

trophies

ROR Payout

Front Gate Staff

Refunds

Credits

It adds up in a hurry! I'm happy to show you the numbers for each event if you are interested...

[Clarkie]

Oh I am not saying dump some of the classes that only have 1-2 grids of racers and have larger grids which will enable people to win more money in classes that pay more based on grid sizes, more of a question as to why they are bigger in other parts of the world and while the economy here has a lot to do with it, the economy in Aussie isn't very good, nor in Cali with the AFM

[loujr]

Would raising membership to $200 and getting one pit crew pass with membership be productive? Or would it cause membership to keep going down?

[T Baggins]

Would raising membership to $200 and getting one pit crew pass with membership be productive? Or would it cause membership to keep going down?

That's a great question. I don't know how many crew passes we sold this year, but they're a bargain at $55.

Honestly my "plan" is to raise licenses $50 AND add $10 to the first race for each rider next year. That's $120 per member, total increase for the year.

That would equal about $22 - $24K and would make a world of difference in ensuring a fully funded season for the MRA.

[glenngsxr]

Oh I am not saying dump some of the classes that only have 1-2 grids of racers and have larger grids which will enable people to win more money in classes that pay more based on grid sizes, more of a question as to why they are bigger in other parts of the world and while the economy here has a lot to do with it, the economy in Aussie isn't very good, nor in Cali with the AFM

That's an easy one Clarkie. It's about culture. The motorcycle community in the US has a very immature and isolated culture. It's huge in most other parts of the world. Just like soccer, it hasn't really caught on. It will and the MRA will be poised well when those days are here. Between that and the economy, US motorcycle racing will remain soft for awhile me thinks. Gosh, the economist in me is coming out. I need to get back to work.

[Clarkie]

I totally agree Glen, but like Jim pointed out the AFM is doing well. Not at all saying the MRA os doing anything wrong at all, it is just interesting to me

[glenngsxr]

I totally agree Glen, but like Jim pointed out the AFM is doing well. Not at all saying the MRA os doing anything wrong at all, it is just interesting to me

they can ride year round as well so motorcycles are naturally a larger part of peoples lives over there. In our geography, lesser so. Not a fair comparison, IMO.

[gsnyder828]

Population density may also have a bit of influence on grid sizes.

[dave.gallant]

Population density may also have a bit of influence on grid sizes.

While this might be true, I am not sure what sheep have to do with this.

http://www.egytex.com/news/images/news/New_Zealand_sheep-(1288607702).jpg

[gsnyder828]

Population density may also have a bit of influence on grid sizes.

While this might be true, I am not sure what sheep have to do with this.

http://www.egytex.com/news/images/news/New_Zealand_sheep-(1288607702).jpg

C'mon Dave - sheep attract racers. More sheep = big grids. Keep up, willya?

[hcr25]

Colorado has 5 million or so people and Cali has 35+ million. It would make sense for the AFM to have larger grids then us. I bet the same holds true for the CMRA grids in Texas.
I'm my opinion we have to many classes. We try to make a class for whatever bike someone wants to race. If we were to limit the amount of classes, racers could get more laps for the $$$. This would also eventually lead to larger grids because of fewer classes to race in.

[Clarkie]

Colorado has 5 million or so people and Cali has 35+ million. It would make sense for the AFM to have larger grids then us. I bet the same holds true for the CMRA grids in Texas.
I'm my opinion we have to many classes. We try to make a class for whatever bike someone wants to race. If we were to limit the amount of classes, racers could get more laps for the $$$. This would also eventually lead to larger grids because of fewer classes to race in.

Yeah didn't think of the population thing, but Sydney has around 4,000,000 people so maybe the number of classes do make a big difference. Contingency pays deeper on larger grids and people wouldn't have to ghost ride just so the club can fill the forms in to make sure people get paid.

[Clarkie]

Colorado has 5 million or so people and Cali has 35+ million. It would make sense for the AFM to have larger grids then us. I bet the same holds true for the CMRA grids in Texas.
I'm my opinion we have to many classes. We try to make a class for whatever bike someone wants to race. If we were to limit the amount of classes, racers could get more laps for the $$$. This would also eventually lead to larger grids because of fewer classes to race in.

Yeah didn't think of the population thing, but Sydney has around 4,000,000 people so maybe the number of classes do make a big difference.

[T Baggins]

If we were to limit the amount of classes, racers could get more laps for the $$$. This would also eventually lead to larger grids because of fewer classes to race in.

But it would also mean less revenue for the club... unless you raised the entry fees to compensate for the loss of class entries. If someone is doing 4 races now, and you nuke two - then we need to raise the entry fee for the remaining two just to stay even financially.

More laps for the money, is not the same as more money.

[T Baggins]

I've been looking at old numbers and it looks like back in 2004 we had an average of 142 riders per event (pre entered I think) compared to 130 or so (total entered) now... Maybe 2004 includes post-entries... I don't know for sure.

At any rate, that's about a 10% decline in entries. They also ran 10 rounds, versus us barely managing 7. Race Entry fees have gone up, but not horribly, since then. So people could afford to run 10 rounds back then, and now they can't. If we ran a 10 race series, I'd bet our average entries would be about 110.

What has changed the most is the cost to try to run a competitive race program, and the event costs have more than doubled!

FYI - Dirk Terrill pulled some data for us for the Board Meeting and ONLY 71 racers have made all 6 rounds to date. 11 of those are Board Members or spouses - and so they HAD to be there anyway...

So we have 60 riders who have been able to commit to a full season.

Fewer riders, spending less money on entries, when costs to put the event on have doubled... = T R O U B L E

[KFinn]

ROR Payout
Hey! I thought this was changed to only turn around the entries to the payout and not everyones money? Are you telling lies again? :o

[T Baggins]

ROR Payout
Hey! I thought this was changed to only turn around the entries to the payout and not everyones money? Are you telling lies again? :o

It is still money being paid out vs retained like we do in the other classes.

The good news (for all but the ROR guys I'm sure...) is that we've been paying out less than $2k per weekend - vs almost $6k per weekend in the past.

That would have added another $24K in LOSSES to date, and we likely would have cancelled Round #7 'cause we'd be broke!

[rforsythe]

FYI - Dirk Terrill pulled some data for us for the Board Meeting and ONLY 71 racers have made all 6 rounds to date. 11 of those are Board Members or spouses - and so they HAD to be there anyway...

So we have 60 riders who have been able to commit to a full season.

Fewer riders, spending less money on entries, when costs to put the event on have doubled... = T R O U B L E

Of the rest, how did the event counts fall out? Were they all but one or two, etc? Was one round wildly more unpopular than another? For the 60, what were the most popular classes? How about for the rest? Do those numbers include Superstreet?

Fewer riders spending less money means the event costs have to decrease or people have to ride more classes than they are. We all get that, but if you're going to dig deep into the data then let's get the full picture.

[T Baggins]

We are asking exactly those questions... it just takes time to pull it all out of the database and put it in a format that makes sense. Dirk Terrell has put a lot of effort into this, and continues to do do.

[dirkterrell]

Of the rest, how did the event counts fall out? Were they all but one or two, etc? Was one round wildly more unpopular than another? For the 60, what were the most popular classes? How about for the rest? Do those numbers include Superstreet?

Fewer riders spending less money means the event costs have to decrease or people have to ride more classes than they are. We all get that, but if you're going to dig deep into the data then let's get the full picture.

I'm working on making it easier to answer these types of questions. And having the full picture is my primary motivation for doing it.

[Nabber]

Lets not forget price of fuel in UK? 6 years ago, when I left, it was $12 gallon. Bikes, cars are twice the price there & don't start me on the price of houses!!
We had a Family tradition of going to 3 to 4 British Superbike Rounds, (Silverstone, Thruxton & Oulton Park) and one WSB round at Silverstone. Entry fee was fair, there was always a good crowd, 40 to 60 thousand and the field was international, ( Glen Richards became a Family friend! My Mum loves him!).
It was reported to me this year by Mother that entry Fees had gone up to 50 pounds at the gate, ($90) and that fans could just not afford it and attendance was down 60 to 80%. The economy there is WWAAAAAAYYY worse than here, I assure you, with the costs of bike, travel costs, entry, running costs, guys like myself could only afford race schools, (Chaz Mortimer, Cadwell Park), so track days were the only option. God Bless & thank God for the USA - as I could realize a dream and just afford to race. You guys are SOOO lucky and thank your lucky stars that you are here and not over there....... harder promotion, getting 'in there' to attract 'newbies', spectators first, racers they become later. Interviews and air time for the 'rising stars' and top 5 racers in each class, let the spectator get to know the person, rather than the # of a bike flashing past and frankly to a newcomer, I get, "they all look the same to me after a while". Give the # a personality and promote the Club in new areas, attract SPECTATORS to the races and there will be your next generation of Novices?
Nabber 'The Brit" #911