Bracket racing?

[Munch]

So I've been trying to come up with a way to setup a race based on lap times, independent of bike displacement.

The races with 10 bikes, all spread out after 2 laps are boring to watch, and honestly not as fun to race. When you're dicing it up with someone for a few laps, it really makes it fun.

So I started wondering if you could successfully run a bracket race format in roadracing?

Grids could be based on target lap times (say 1:50 - 1:55), (1:55 - 2:00), (2:00 - 2:05) etc..

Emphasis would be on consistency, and sandbagging would be penalized.

If I grid up in the (2:00 - 2:05) and run avg of 1:55, I'd get a 35 second penalty, for beating my bracket by 5 seconds each lap. Heck could penalize even stiffer by going on the high end of your bracket, so 70 second penalty to discourage it... However, if I end up with a 7 lap average over 2:00 per lap, I'd keep my time.

I guess my end result is trying to get a group of racers with similar times, gridded together, all in the same race. Each wave could be seperated by enough time to not interfere with the grid group ahead or behind.

Not sure it's possible, but wanted to toss it out for discussion.

[mkdiehl]

I like the theory but in the case of the 250's (my only experience), we may run the same time as another bike but if we were on the track with them at the same time we would probably be slower since they would pass us in the straight (their strength) and hold us up in the corners (possibly our strength). Seems the same would happen between fast 600 riders and slower 1000 riders.

right?

[mkdiehl]

I like the theory but in the case of the 250's (my only experience), we may run the same time as another bike but if we were on the track with them at the same time we would probably be slower since they would pass us in the straight (their strength) and hold us up in the corners (possibly our strength). Seems the same would happen between fast 600 riders and slower 1000 riders.

right?

[Bartman]

I will have to kill you if you bring the worst part of drag racing into roadracing, the whole purpose of racing is to find the fastest not the most consistent. Heads up racing is racing and bracket is one large circle jerk for the lowest form of racer in the know world IE bracket drag racers.
Sorry but I cannot allow this abomination into roadracing just can NOT do it. Please do not make this youth soccer racing I can not take it.

[gsnyder828]

I will have to kill you if you bring the worst part of drag racing into roadracing, the whole purpose of racing is to find the fastest not the most consistent. Heads up racing is racing and bracket is one large circle jerk for the lowest form of racer in the know world IE bracket drag racers.
Sorry but I cannot allow this abomination into roadracing just can NOT do it. Please do not make this youth soccer racing I can not take it.

=D> =D> =D>

[spideyrdr]

I will have to kill you if you bring the worst part of drag racing into roadracing,

So tell us how you really feel, Bart! :)

People are trying to come up with ways to make it more exciting. I am all for that! I agree with the problem of lap times, though, since you've got fast 250's running the same as medium-paced 600's and 1000's. I would envision big clumps at the corners that fan out on the straights and then clump up again.

Some races are probably destined to be boring just due to the differences in skill and budget. Hell, most Motogp races have been relative snoozers this year.

[Bartman]

I tend not to sugar coat my opinions and the older I get the more it offends me to see the dumbing down of racing, I have nothing against new ideas I welcome them but I hate the idea of making our sport into some nascar clone where we have restricter plates or other shit to clump us altogether. Car racing is 80% car and 20% driver, I like the fact that it is 80% rider and 20% bike because it really is up to us if we are fast or not.
To many racers worry to much about being able to win when they are older or overweight or who knows what, the key to having fun in racing is to keep in your mind that we are doing this for fun it is not really going to go anywhere so live with the fact that you are not going to be a GP star. The minute it stops being fun stop doing it cause bad shit will happen.
Our sport tends to run in packs and I don't think you will ever be able to change that and I really don't want to because if it does it means we have made bike racing like cars where the bike is 80% and that is BAD.

[Munch]

Ok, so bracket racing isn't the answer. And maybe thats a bad example.

Just tring to find something to fill the grids. Last weekend stunk. Circulating for 7 laps with 10 guys on the track isn't terribly exciting. You get passed on the straight, or pass someone else on the straight, and thats about it. I'm looking for some action in the corners!

[rforsythe]

Ok, so bracket racing isn't the answer. And maybe thats a bad example.

Just tring to find something to fill the grids. Last weekend stunk. Circulating for 7 laps with 10 guys on the track isn't terribly exciting. You get passed on the straight, or pass someone else on the straight, and thats about it. I'm looking for some action in the corners!

What's your bike number? We'll get the rest of your grid to pony up some cash and have the flaggers toss gatorade bottles and rattlesnakes at you. That would definitely make it more exciting!

I agree with Bart on the bracket thing. The biggest draw of this sport to me is that the entire point is to push yourself 100% and then go a little more, every lap of every race. It's as much mental as anything else. Making it based on who can run a safe lap the most consistently is the antithesis of that concept, because nobody is going to bracket race at 100% - by definition it will be something less, to guarantee consistency.

[rybo]

Ok, so bracket racing isn't the answer. And maybe thats a bad example.

Just tring to find something to fill the grids. Last weekend stunk. Circulating for 7 laps with 10 guys on the track isn't terribly exciting. You get passed on the straight, or pass someone else on the straight, and thats about it. I'm looking for some action in the corners!

Had a great round a couple races ago in Twins O Munch, and Healy gave me the business this last round - I know you've got it in you.....heck I have a $16.63 bet going with Healy - and I'm sure he'll agree with me. Beat me in Twins O at Pikes and it's all yours!

s

[jeff healy]

yup I'm game! We can make it a traveling envelope with the money in it :) Buuutttt... I don't plan on letting it out of my sight anytime soon :) I personally think I had twice as much fun going back and forth with Rybo just because it became personal! Neither of us can battle with pat and the fast boys up front but even if we were battling for 6th place it felt like I won the race!

[Fastt Racing]

I'm confused! I had a good battle with Healy in AmO, barely edged him. A good battle with Munch in Thunderbike, Munch was smiling from ear to ear after. And I'm gonna beat Rybo at PPIR! LOL. Were's the problem? Some races are better than others for sure......

[rybo]

I'm confused!
True


And I'm gonna beat Rybo at PPIR!
False

[Fastt Racing]

Rybo and I have had a great rivalry going all year that has made Thunderbike more fun than it would have been. He even let me catch up to tie him in points for a minute. Great fun this year Rybo!

[phildrummond]

Everyone starts from their pit position in the paddock, warmers on.

Boom. Exciting to watch.

[jeff healy]

Im in for the thunderbike battle next season for sure! Who knows... possibly for the rest of this season too :)

[jeff healy]

I'm confused!
True


And I'm gonna beat Rybo at PPIR!
False



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[slo lee]

The replies in this post IMHO show the strength of the MRA and club racing. Guys who know each other and want some friendly competition compete and their incentives don't destroy what's the guys at the very top of the brackets are racing for. OK. But since folks tend to drop out in August and September because they're not in the points race, and maybe they don't have friends they're racing against just yet, could there be another kind of incentive to keep the mid pack guys and the bottom dwellers (me) continuing to sign up and race. Maybe divide small grids into two parts and large grids into three parts based on times through first 5 races. Guys who stay at the top of the 2nd half or middle third or bottom third get some kind of meaningful prize. Just one winner for each fraction of the grid. Tires? This is not meant to take away the prizes for the most competitive riders at the top of the brackets. Leave that alone. But when race dates are threatened to be cancelled because the club needs more racers to sign up maybe the less competitive riders need something to hope for and keep them in the game. In competition no one remembers who comes in second. That's as it should be. But to sustain the club IMHO we need all the riders to be part of the game through the whole season. Just thinkin' .

[jeff healy]

I think it would be cool to come up with something to keep people interested even if they are on the back of the grid but don't have any brilliant idea's that come to mind. (big surprise!) I think that a lot of it has to do with just setting your own personal goals and in a sense racing yourself! I feel that I'm still slow enough that I don't expect to go out and win any races but I try to push myself to finish just one position better than I did the weekend before! I also think that people would be amazed at how well you can finish for the season if you are just able to make all the races! Everybody runs into issues before the season is over and misses a race or two and if your there to pick up the extra points you can advance really quickly! I guess what I'm getting at is get linked up with other people and challenge each other! Hell i'm already going to go broke betting guys like Rybo that I can go faster than him when he turned a new personal best lap time and its 2 full seconds faster than I've ever gone but Ill be damned if I'm going to give up that envelope willingly :) Maybe we just need to have everybody pitch in a dollar that wants in and figure out some sort of handicap system like they use in golf! Then you could take your overall time and multiply it by your handicap # and whoever has the best net time gets the envelope for that race!? Or maybe it doesn't even have to be about money maybe we just need a trophy that can make the rounds at each race weekend. We could call it the handicap trophy :) lol Now I'm just rambling so I'll stop but if anybody wants in I'm game!!

[slo lee]

I like the idea of racers mid pack or bottom dwellers kicking in . . . say $5.00 and their best finisher in their race takes all. Nothing extravagant. Voluntary . . . for sure. Getting the thing organized might be a challenge. Identifying who is in what part of which fraction and collecting the money. We all race against our personal best and keep trying to improve but I think we're trying to add some excitement to the races late in season for mid pack racers and bottom dwellers. IMHO the competition sets the race apart from the track day. I agree that showing up to all the races can increase your point total. When I got my license in April I knew I could make only 3 dates. Maybe I shouldn't have gotten my license ... but I don't want to go in that direction. I want to support the club even if it's only a little bit. My $.02.

[KFinn]

I want to say that none of these ideas are bad. But do want to add in my .02 from my experience this year and last year.

Why should those of you in the mid pack or end have to organize any sort of system or official betting/trophy to get more out of racing? :?

I ask this rhetorical question because last year I was mid/end pack. (I may have finished higher in points for the season because I was consistent, but I finished closer to the end of the pack.)

I had a kick in the pants last year even in the mid pack because I happened to be at the same level/pace of my team mate / buddy last year. He and I were always dicing it up, he would share is videos and us passing each other and the Sh!t talking never ended at or away from the track. (mind you it wasn't serious sh!t talking that jeopardized our friendship) but it was fun. It was motivating. I also made the point of going out and finding in the pits the couple other people I was consistently battling with and making friends off the track so that I could spread the banter and playful competition. I also tried to get them to pit with or close to us so between races we could extend the friendship. I had a heck of a good time as did my new found friends.

So my point being, think about what you want to add value to the racing experience and then seek it out. It may not be a cookie cutter solution for everyone. :) By the way, this system for me, i find works no matter what pack you run in.

[KFinn]

To add one more bit, I also watch and analyze my personal stats. So that even if I don't get to battle it out with anyone and don't have time in the pits to go hang out with my friends, that I still have a good time battling myself by setting mini goals and big goals and seeing how I fared once times and results are posted. Because then, even racing alone, you can still have something every weekend you can be proud of. Find the silver lining in everything you do and you can generally always be happy about the weekend to some extent.

[Bartman]

Kfinn has this totally right, the fun is almost the same fighting for last as it is for first. The fun is in the battle not the place, several years ago we had a pair of racers as our Sportsman of the year and this had never been done before but the reason why it was awarded to them was because they always ended up racing together and that was all that mattered to them.
So get to know the people you race against and you will find them driving you to do better and keep at it and you will do the same for them, its no fun to race around with out being able to continue the race off track between friends.

[slo lee]

I totally agree with Bartman and KFinn. This aspect of the club, the friendly competition amongst friends is the strength and one of the best things about the MRA IMHO. I agree KFinn, meeting up with the guys you compete against is a good way to meet people. So here's my question: what happens to the guys who are new, aren't so well connected to friends just yet etc etc. You get the point. Actually, the friendly bet might not be a way to meet people. Breaking larger groups into smaller groups. More person to person. Clearly it's the connection to the people that makes the difference. The goal IMHO is to help folks keep showing up, keep spending money to support the club. . . to make it a lot easier. Just thinkin'.

[KFinn]

So here's my question: what happens to the guys who are new, aren't so well connected to friends just yet etc etc. I think I understand the question.... Let me try answering it and guide me if I miss answering it.

From the semi non newbie perspective: it is easy to identify those that you know and battle it out with. While some of us try to go find some of the numbers we only see on a rare occasion, it is sometimes hard to remember or find you newbs around the track.

So knowing that, I would suggest 2 things. 1 doing what I suggested to combat the non newbs issues and another action.....

1) Just try to remember a bike or number that you battled it out with last round or the current race day and go out a couple times around the pits different times of the day to find them. I say a couple because they may be racing something you aren't. So you may not see the bike in a pit spot. (heck borrow a bicycle or pit bike or skateboard to do it so you don't wear yourself out. If you meet one person, they may introduce you over time to a second or third. Meanwhile don't stop going out and finding one new person you battle it out with. So then that one person is your fourth and they can introduce you to the fifth and sixth and it can eventually becomes exponential.

2) Make a friend even if you don't battle it out with them and they are in the front pack or something. Think of it as a mentor program or something.... If you have a hard time picking a person to hang out with, maybe try seeing if a rider rep that knows you a little can think of someone to suggest for you. or your super street instructor. Or heck, come find me and we can see what, if any help I can provide. Even if you are shy... try to put yourself out there. (Coming from someone who is extremely shy to strangers.) I know it can be hard. If you go home at night or to a hotel, maybe try hanging out a bit later to see if you can meet people around the bonfire or under the pavilion.

I feel like I lost my direction in my response and am rambling. SO with that, I will stop and if there are things I missed or glossed over, let me know.

[slo lee]

Kevin, I appreciate your offer. I'll do it. I'm going to PPIR Friday am to practice and I'll race 250 production Sat and Sun. I'll bring something for the corner workers. Cool. Build a club one member at a time. Works for me. Seriously. My question really was focused on how to increase participation in races late in the season when attendance falls off for guys not in the points race. The guys at the top of the points race need the guys in the mid pack and the bottom to participate so the club doesn't have to cancel a race date, like HPR #8. Is there something that the club can build into it's incentive program to keep racers coming back? Bartman, I don't think setting your own goals and racing to improve your times is quite enough. It's clearly important in order to develop as a racer. What about discounted license fees for next year as a prize? Or for next year, for eg. discounted license fees for all four superstreet guys who license up with 3 additional friends. Would that work to bring superstreet racers into the club? Most people respond to positive incentives. I think monetary incentives are fine if they facilitate building relationships in the club. Unfortunately the problem of having enough money for this year has to be answered. This thread got started by wondering how to make the races more interesting. Folks don't like changing the incentives by creating brackets or handicapping the races. I like the discussion. It's not easy. In search of a solution and just thinkin' out loud.

[KFinn]

My question really was focused on how to increase participation in races late in the season when attendance falls off for guys not in the points race.
Ya, i guess that didn't help much then to answer the question.


Bartman, I don't think setting your own goals and racing to improve your times is quite enough. It's clearly important in order to develop as a racer. I partially disagree... But I think this highly depends on the racers personality traits and willingness. Let me explain why I am of this opinion.

As I said last year I was mid to end packer kind of guy in Novice. So for me last year was a bit frustrating because when I did try to look at my times and glean accomplishment out of it, it was very hard. This was because for the most part they were stagnant and not improving. I couldn't get past the blockade in front of me.

Also know that I am the rebellious type of person in my core personality that loves to defy. So when the facts of my lap times and finishing placement told me 'I can't do better", "I won't be a top finishing Novice", "I am not as good as I hoped and am not applying what I am learning into decreasing lap-times".

In reply, I told myself - "F*** You dude.... Don't tell me I can't do something! Watch this!" This was a part of me becoming faster. To me the lap-times show me this.

The other part is that the simple fact that the top 10 novices get booted to expert. "Light Bulb" - was my thought. This means me as a mediocre racer can now have a chance at top 5 just by the math, barring other variables such as super fast first time novices with prior track or racing experience. So I would hope that some of you slower novices are taking this into account that a little elbow grease along with the novices getting booted at the end of season, can set you up to be in the points next year front running. So if you stick it out this year and keep making all the races so that you get more practice and track time and race environment experience, the better chance you have.

Maybe this isn't a well known fact by 1st year novices? If not, try becoming more familiar with the rule book. Read and re-read sections to slowly start absorbing enough of it to see the big picture for your racing career and find any loop holes that may help you gain more enjoyment and satisfaction.

So to recapp; what am I saying? Learn yourself and what drives you, then turn that around and use it against yourself to light the fire under you. Know the rule book and figure out what your personal roadmap is here to the future. And finally, yes... what else can we do to help the end of year churn.

[Bartman]

So the way I see it there are 2 types of riders, first it the one who is driven to be the fastest racer you can be and I was that when I was a novice(back when the dead sea was just sick). :lol: Second is the one that rides more for the fun of it and is less concerned with outright speed and lap times and that is what I am now. The thing is neither understands the other until that transition is made and most prolly never make the transition.
To the first type not setting goals makes no sense but to the second it makes total sense. This is a sport of epiphanys and when yours comes it all makes sense and almost becomes easy compared to when you started. Keep at it and it will come, maybe not next race but I have known people that raced for years and were slow until that moment came and it made sense.

[jeff healy]

I'm all with Kevin and I think that more than anything what he is trying to get at is that we are all in the same boat :) We all do this for fun and none of us expect to make a living doing it! If it weren't for the camaraderie and friends I have made in the MRA this year I probably wouldn't be real motivated to make every race! Granted, you all are the most expensive group of friends I've ever met :)!!!! So come out and hang out with your friends! If you can't afford to race that weekend just come out and make new friends and enjoy watching... I guarantee you that being at the racetrack watching and not participating for one weekend will motivate you enough to sell your first born child to make it to that next race weekend :) (maybe a little drastic for those of you that do have kids :) ) but you get my point! And yep I'm rambling as well but I also am more than willing to help people in any way I possibly can! I love racing and can talk about it all day so come find me on a friday or during a practice and I would love to go out with anybody and help or come talk racing at the end of the day over a beer or 3 :) Plus my ideas for getting people involved are always waaayyy better when I'm drinking a beer!! I think more than anything if we can make the new guys a part of the family that we have it will keep them around and motivated!!

[Bueller999]

Good incite Bart, I am with you on the transition, that's why the 250's are so much fun for me, I stopped having fun a few years ago, it got to be a chore that I was not enjoying. The pressure I put on myself was making me miserable. Now it is all fun again. I make racing what I want it to be.

[jeff healy]

wow I just looked at my last post and there are waaayyy too many smiley faces!! ](*,)