The Moral dilemma of borrowing someone's bike.

[chris nami]

If you borrow it and wad it...you fix it to perfection as quickly as possible!! Right??!! Am I wrong? Have I lost my mind?
If you have any questions about being f'd over, ask Brownie.

[Bartman]

That would be the right thing to do for sure, fix it and fix it fast. Also if you do borrow you don't ride it as fast as you would yours, it is a last ditch effort to save points you do NOT ride it hard.

[rybo]

Chris,

I speak with great experience on this subject.

In 2006 I borrowed a friends R6 after my motor decided to go on lunch break at Miller. I highsided the borrowed bike to the moon, and re-entry was rather unkind to it.

I did everything I could to settle that debt as quickly as possible. I abandoned the bulk of my own race effort that year in order to assure that the other person, who was kind enough to loan me the bike in the first place, could pursue their own. In the end I ended up buying the wrecked bike from them at what we both decided was "fair market value" prior to the crash.

In my mind it was the only right thing to do.

In my own program I've adopted the philosophy that when I loan my bike to someone else, I accept that I may be ending my own season if they fall down. Any number of circumstances could lead to this, including that the rider may be terribly injured and has their financial resources committed to hospital bills and recovery. As such, I'm very particular about who I allow to ride my motorcycle and am prepared to accept that my own effort and finances are "at risk" while it's happening.

s

[chris nami]

I totally agree Bart and Scott, it would also make me super pissed to see the guy that raced my bike and destroyed it, racing on a brand new bike (and/or shopping for another) while I was still trying to fix the one he tossed to the ground. I get it if things get hard for people but when you borrow it you buy it until it's back in the same or better condition than you got it...and yes I am calling someone out!

[froth]

Been there in a somewhat similar yet different position. Not an easy thing to do, having your race effort mangled while the other person merrily races on.
Good luck with this one. (and just for fun and drama, keep us updated, names, dates....photos :wink: )

[Smartinez]

and thank you Scott for offering me your bike! your a great guy, even if you choose to host all of your track days at times when I can't make it :)
S

Agreed though with wad it - pay for it
Loan it - expect it to come back wadded up , great if it doesnt but if it does than deal with it.
and although I did pay to use pridmores bike for the second day after crashing mine, I wasnt an a hole and rode it gently not the same pace as my own. as i knew the result of that type of riding :oops:


Chris,

I speak with great experience on this subject.

In 2006 I borrowed a friends R6 after my motor decided to go on lunch break at Miller. I highsided the borrowed bike to the moon, and re-entry was rather unkind to it.

I did everything I could to settle that debt as quickly as possible. I abandoned the bulk of my own race effort that year in order to assure that the other person, who was kind enough to loan me the bike in the first place, could pursue their own. In the end I ended up buying the wrecked bike from them at what we both decided was "fair market value" prior to the crash.

In my mind it was the only right thing to do.

In my own program I've adopted the philosophy that when I loan my bike to someone else, I accept that I may be ending my own season if they fall down. Any number of circumstances could lead to this, including that the rider may be terribly injured and has their financial resources committed to hospital bills and recovery. As such, I'm very particular about who I allow to ride my motorcycle and am prepared to accept that my own effort and finances are "at risk" while it's happening.

s

[rforsythe]

I've borrowed more bikes to race than I can count - sometimes for the better part of a season, thanks to the kindness of others. I did so with the full knowledge that if I binned it, it would either be fixed or purchased at pre-crash value. Fortunately it never came to that (some luck, mostly just from not being very aggressive on something that is not mine). There is no moral dilemma here for me, it's just called doing the right thing.

I've also offered my bikes to other people to ride/race, but am selective about it. I don't run a credit check or anything, but certainly limit it to people whose characters suggest they would make it right. And like Rybo said, with the knowledge that my own season might end right there if they can't (bad things happen to good people too). However I do believe in "pay it forward", and the generosity extended to me through the years is immeasurable.

Obviously something less than above-board happened here and I don't know the details, but sometimes moments of clarity come from reading others reactions to what you did on a public forum, so perhaps it'll have an effect.

[HAMMER]

U break, u buy = un-said rule

[dave.gallant]

Wait an effin minute.

I don't need to buy, prep, and maintain my own pile when I can just borrow someone else's and wad it up into a ball of aluminum just the same?

What the eff have I been doing all these years?

Paging Sexy Ben. Please. Please. Please. Build me a bike. (and pay for it while you are at it)

I may or may not crash it. (Chances are good I won't make it past turn two, although if I am lucky will take that bastard Fuller or rotten bastard Brewer out with me)

The one thing I can guarantee is that I can't pay to fix it!

What'say'you'O'Sexy'Ben???

[Clarkie]

Hey Dave, can I borrow your GSXR1000? :D

[Scorekeeper]

Sexy Ben has a beauty built, even has pictures (I'm not talkin' his green machine folks)! Dave, we've missed you at the track. Sorry to say that you couldn't find someone to loan you their bike. Maybe you didn't try hard enough!

And Chris, I can't believe that someone would walk away from that obligation.

[Scorekeeper]

Right on Clarkie......I think.

[chris nami]

I'll say this...it wasn't me who got shafted, it was Jeff Brown. A person who over the years has been know to loan his bad ass bikes to people. A few championships have been won because of this fact. He would loan his bike to just about anyone and has. Problem is is that he now has a pile of shit that I wouldn't ride... ( that says a lot cuz I didn't get the nicknames junkyard and bacon for nothing!)
It's been the better part of a year now and the person that Brownie loaned his bike to still hasn't been fixed it. All this and the guy still continues to race, purchased a bike via cash from another racer, and has (from what i can tell) been shopping around for a new sumo bike!! WTF!!
I liked the dude and would have never thought he would have done this and I have stayed out of it til today. I'd like to see him get things right with Brownie but at this point it doesn't look as if he will.

[glenngsxr]

Sounds like the other person (I know who it is and I haven't even been racing) needs to have his racing rights taken away. In my mind, this equals not paying a vendor and should carry the same consequences.

[HAMMER]

08 + browns bike = amgtu championship for hammer .... Couldn't have done it without you ... And yes I crashed it ... But shinny new bodywork with fresh paint was what he got back .... That's how its done boys ... Thankx again brown ..... U da man .. I owe ya big time still ....

[The GECCO]

I'll say this...it wasn't me who got shafted, it was Jeff Brown. A person who over the years has been know to loan his bad ass bikes to people. A few championships have been won because of this fact.

I wouldn't have had the privilege of wearing the number 7 plate for a season if it hadn't been for Brownie's generosity. He allowed me to tear apart his R1 and use the motor and exhaust, which I eventually bought from him.

Thanks, Jeff!!

[coax]

That is as lame as it comes. I learned from others, after watching people trash another's bike or back their truck over stuff in the pits and not pay for it. After seeing this a few times, I basically told people if you trash it be at the dealership (or whatever) on Tuesday getting it fixed, even if you don't normally use a credit card and get it fixed. If they couldn't agree to those terms- no ride. It amazed me how few people wanted to ride my bikes then. What are they thinking?

Unfortunately, it sounds like someone needs to be taken to court! The thought of lawyer fees added to the price of the bike might get some action. I wouldn't worry about losing a friend, as there wasn't one there to start with.

[Clarkie]

Sounds like the other person (I know who it is and I haven't even been racing) needs to have his racing rights taken away. In my mind, this equals not paying a vendor and should carry the same consequences.

hmmmm.....so what about a vendor who steals from someone's fundraising effort that a lot of the racers contributed to, should they be allowed to vend at the track with the MRA?

[rforsythe]

In my mind, this equals not paying a vendor and should carry the same consequences.

Not sure it's that cut and dry. Just because it involves MRA racers doesn't mean the MRA has to enforce what is an unfortunate, but ultimately personal dispute between two people. Additionally, as one of them is a board member there are perceptional ramifications if they intervene on his behalf.

Unless there is a pre-existing hard and fast rule about this sort of thing (as far as I know there is not), IMO the board should not get in the middle of this one. This isn't the first time one member has effed over another and then continued to essentially rub it in, and won't be the last. I don't believe the board stepped in before, which also sets precedent that they should not now. It sucks that it happened to someone we ALL respect and admire as a person and racer, but that factor doesn't change anything as far as how it should be officially handled.

[motolitho]

Plus, we'll all find out what happened in the end. I'd hate to be on the wrong end of that stick.

[phildrummond]

That kinda shiz steams me. I guess with some, you make them PayPal the bike value into your account before the race. After the race with bike in one piece, money is returned. Take him to court. One of these could work...


express contract n. a contract in which all elements of a contract are specifically stated (offer, acceptance, consideration), and the terms are stated, as compared to an "implied" contract in which the existence of the contract is assumed by the circumstances. (See: implied contract)

implied contract n. an agreement which is found to exist based on the circumstances when to deny a contract would be unfair and/or result in unjust enrichment to one of the parties. An implied contract is distinguished from an "express contract."

[Scored51]

Scott's scenario of "at risk" happened to me in 2003. Borrowed it, wrecked it, and out of work for 3 weeks.
The lesson is simple: Don't throw a leg over a bike you aren't willing and able to pay for.

[glenngsxr]

Sounds like the other person (I know who it is and I haven't even been racing) needs to have his racing rights taken away. In my mind, this equals not paying a vendor and should carry the same consequences.

hmmmm.....so what about a vendor who steals from someone's fundraising effort that a lot of the racers contributed to, should they be allowed to vend at the track with the MRA?

If it's proven and obviously DID happen, then hell yes they need their rights taken away.

Ultimately, what's the difference between screwing an MRA racer and and MRA vendor over. It's blatant and disgusting either way. Putting the technicalities of the board and rulebook aside, this person needs to be dealt with.

[JohnGarc]

U guys are all queens!!! Bottom line is don't lend out your bike! And learn from your mistakes. Stop beating a dead horse.... There was no contract. I.e.... Written or verbal before a crashed bike was handed over to the rightful owner. Hire all the attorneys u want this thread is DEAD. And, in case your thinking it was me who borrowed a bike and crashed it, think again.

U guys think u can ad shiny go fast parts to your bike it raises the value of your junk? U are racing or riding a used bike once its off the showroom floor. From what I see parts were returned and now Brownie has a complete bike.

[RaceLover]

Guys, first of all, this should be kept between the two racers that it happened to. Second, you should probably know both sides of the story before ganging up on someone..

The bike was borrowed "Hey dude you just crashed your bike, ride mine you need the points" and was offered to be bought, for what it was worth prior to crashin, from the racer THE SAME DAY of the accident, but was turned down..

After MANY parts and cash given to replace all the broken parts, $3000+ (parts/cash) it still wasn't enough to please the owner. Did I miss the part about "crash a bike, build the owner a brand new one"?? I thought it was replace to current value prior to ridin the bike?? but I could be wrong and I need to be borrowin more bikes if that's the case

Lesson to be learned.. don't offer someone your bike. If you do, know it might be crashed.. and don't expect them to buy you a brand spankin new bike when yours wasn't in that condition to begin with. I've been hearing about this crash for a year and per the last guy, seriously get over it move on it's none of our business...

[JohnGarc]

+1

[chris nami]

Just so you know John Brownies bike only looks put together because he had a lot of parts of his own to rebuild the bike... Like a frame, swing arm, rearsets, bars, blah blah blah. Bottom-line is that if you use someone's shit and wreck it, you fix it! Yes there is no contract...that's why it called a moral dilemma... And I know for a fact that $3,000 plus parts were NOT givin to Brown for his bike. I've seen the parts that were givin, all fucked and crapped out, some even borrowed from other racers!
I've said something about this because it pisses me off to see my friend get hosed and thats my right, so suck it!
It's funny that I am criticized for saying something and getting involved but anyone posting on this thread is getting involved. Nothing like a hypocrite to bring light to a situation. And please call me a queen to my face, it would be a shame to spend your race weekend looking for you teeth.

[chris nami]

FYI, I know for a fact because i'v seen the texts between the two people involved and have helped put the shit pile back back together. Also let me point out that I haven't called anybody names or named anyone except for my friend that I want to help. I have simply put the question out there, "what do you do if you wad someones bike?"

[acrovixen]

Chris Fuller - YOU are the kind of guy I could see lending a bike to. Apparently doing the right thing isn't common sense to some people. Good on you for stepping up and having Brownie's back - he's been a great asset to the club for as long as I can remember and it sucks to see people taking advantage of a good guy... And written contract or no, he would most definitely have a case in small claims court: no lawyer fees needed, and court costs are minimal. You win, you can garnish wages to get your money back... Been through it. I'm not a letigious person, but call bullshit what it is; if this ass hat has enough cash to buy himself a new bike, he has plenty to be fixing one he trashed.

Go get him, Brownie! :wink:

[froth]

Where's the "Like" button for that last one?

[NossLou]

U guys are all queens!!! Bottom line is don't lend out your bike! And learn from your mistakes. Stop beating a dead horse.... There was no contract. I.e.... Written or verbal before a crashed bike was handed over to the rightful owner. Hire all the attorneys u want this thread is DEAD. And, in case your thinking it was me who borrowed a bike and crashed it, think again.

U guys think u can ad shiny go fast parts to your bike it raises the value of your junk? U are racing or riding a used bike once its off the showroom floor. From what I see parts were returned and now Brownie has a complete bike.

John,

I have not met you, but this is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read on here. This thread is not pointed at you by any means so get that out of your head. Second, how in the hell can you call some one like Jeff a queen. Jeff has bent over backwards for this club..period! He has spent the entire season working with new riders and supporting all in the pits, while putting his own racing interest on the backburner due to having a trashed bike. He is a standup dude and is the reason I started racing with the MRA. He has let others borrow his bike on numerous occasions, including this last weekend. This isn't about signing a contract or legality issues....like Chris stated its a moral dilema. If you got out and wad someones bike up you fix it to the exact form it was. And if you don't then get the eff out. Legally... it a no brainer what would happen in court.

His bike was not fixed by any means, Jeff fronted the most expensive parts out of his own pocket and didn't even expect to be paid for them.... frame, subframe, swingarm... those are not cheap to start with.

It boils down to being responsible for your actions... plain and simple. If you can't fix it don't ride it.. how hard is that? Negligence of not fixing a bike and then coming back with a new one and wanting a second is bound to piss someone off 100% of the time.

Its easy to talk about and judge across the internet and texts, but face to face most people would get their jaw snapped. Burning on Clarkie and now Jeff... dude its beyond low....

[cromer611]

Im gonna make some I <3 Brownie stickers

[KFinn]

It boils down to being responsible for your actions... plain and simple. But really isn't this the problem we see so much today in society these days?!?! WTF happened to personal accountability.

[acrovixen]

It boils down to being responsible for your actions... plain and simple. But really isn't this the problem we see so much today in society these days?!?! WTF happened to personal accountability.


Yes, yes and YES. Can I get an A-MEN! LOL Not only that, but do you really want to put your life on the line for someone with zero integrity? Because at the end of the day, you're doing just that. This isn't like golf - there are no "do overs" when someone really screws up...

[jeff healy]

Cromer Ill buy a I heart Brownie sticker :) lol but only if its pink!

[DOUBLE A]

I like brownies! I'll take two in the pink....& one in the stink

[cromer611]

I like brownies! I'll take two in the pink....& one in the stink
lolz

[T Baggins]

The MRA Board of Directors has chosen to LOCK this thread because, in our opinion, there is nothing positive or beneficial that can come from it being discussed on MRA forums.

We encourage civil play, and responsible actions among all of our MRA members and fans - but have limited "power" to enforce the same.

If you can't work things out, the court system has numerous options for resolving civil disputes such as this. The MRA forums, on the other hand, does not.