The moral dilemma with cheating....

[Clarkie]

Purely a discussion :D

If you raced, and you knew of someone that you didnt race against was cheating (hard facts not purely opionion), should you raise it to an official's attention?

If you were a business that a racer approached asking for 'hot mods' that would not be legal for the class the racer was intending to compete in, should you do the work? This is a little more complicated as the business also needs to make a profit, in business reputation is everything, even if the reputation is that you can build a cheater motor :lol:

Yes the MRA has a long history of fast/popular/well known racers cheating, heck the MRA probably has the worst reputation in the club racing scene in the entire US.

A few years ago Darren Luck (Florida club racer) was busted by AMA officials for using a GSXR750 motor in a GSXR600 chassis, in the AMA600 class, he was banned from AMA competition (not sure for how long). It's actually prett easy to tell by the note an engine makes (regardless of exhaust system) if it is an overbore if you know what you are doing.

When I raced the Aprilia Cup Series with Formula USA all the classes were dyno controlled, but then people started intalling hidden switches to change the ingition map to reduce the power for the dyno run, like the CBR1000RR and ZX10-R had to do to meet the EPA regs.

Having some sort of system where a racer can 'let an offical know' what is going on wont work, as how do you decide fact from opinion. Speed traps and a radar gun 'might' work but people get out of corners differently which effects top speed.

Spec racing? That doesnt work as I know (an engine builder admitted he just did what was asked/paid for, again, no names) there are people cheating in the 250 series, and no it's not my place to name them.

Moto2 is a good start as the engines are all controlled, BSB is going with spec ECU's, but this wont work for club racing because of the cost. So what is the answer, 'run what you brung' classes might work, but how do you know if a middleweight is really a middleweight bike? The can be bore AND stroked, or a bigger motor can be made to fit if you know what you are doing, the R71 was a perfect example. Dyno controlled classes, or at least making someone go on the dyno to see if you want to protest them? Nope, with electronics and programming these days it is easy to get around.

So how do you control the cheating that goes hand in hand in club racing? Group hugs and a pact at every event? One class, an 8 hour race, all in? Random teardowns to the crank? (but this time the racer wont be informed ahead of time so he can't "bring a stock bike that weekend" :lol: ). I dont have a clue how to control it, but I am sure other people may have ideas. At the end of the day people cheat, other racers who arent cheating walk away from the sport because they are sick of the cheating.

Discuss!

[glenngsxr]

I'm gonna say no, it is not the responsibility of the builder to say whether or not he/she built a cheater motor for someone. That person needs to make a living and people have to do whatever it takes to put food on the table.

When it comes to getting together with a group of folks and having competition against each other, it should make you cringe knowing that you did not beat someone fair and square.

There are cheaters all over the place in every league in every sport. Most of them don't get caught, sadly. I also think there is a moral code that becomes established in certain sports. If you are caught, you become an outcast and frowned upon, no matter who you are. Take golf, I would say no sport offers the chance to cheat as much as golf does, yet how many people are caught cheating every year (professional)? I can't remember when the last time was.

Is there cheating in the MRA, yep. Always has and always will be......until you get rid of the humans.

Glenn #62

[Clarkie]

I totally agree Glen, the builder was paid to do a service, and did his job. This is (should be) more about how do you control it. The old saying "you aren't cheating if you dont get caught" has been around for a long time, I want to know if anyone has any good ideas for how to catch cheaters, that doesnt cost a fortune.

Fuel testing is easy (and cheap) to do, it works in a lot of series, but it wont stop people adding aftermarket slipper clutches or in some cases big bore kits to their bikes. Personally I think Tony should buy 20 band new identicle bikes, race prep them, then the racers draw keys out of a bucket and get 10 minutes to adjust the controls etc, on pit lane in front of everyone, then race.

[jplracing]

agreed. I don't think the burden should be placed on the business owner. They are there to make a living. If a customer asks them to build a motor, there job is to build the best motor they can. If the customer then decides to cheat with that motor..well then that is on the customer not the builder.

[slo lee]

I'm not sure there is any easy answer to this dilemma. If you think about it the opportunity to take unfair advantage is not only in racing. Cheating on your spouse, taxes, business agreements whatever. It's all over the place. Why some people do it in some situations and not in others is pretty interesting actually. And how far does it go? If the motor isn't correct for the class, does the rider bump another rider in a turn because he can get away with it. Could be real dangerous IMHO. In the end we all have to sleep at night with our own conscience. That's what it means to be an adult. Some people avoid doing this. They don't have internal rules that guide them. They'll do things because no one will catch them. They're more susceptible to bending the rules. No one is watching them all the time. It's always interesting to me to see at what price each person will sell his or her integrity. We all intuitively know who we can trust and whom we can't. And, finally, for me, it's about trust. Do we value trust in one another. . . they won't intentionally hurt us; they will follow the class rules etc. I think the MRA has a community that does follow the rules for the the most part and treats each member with respect. I think the community is made up of adults who know the rules and know how to have fun. With competition there will always be grousing about who wins and why, but I can't imagine that being in a club where people don't respect themselves or one another enough to follow the rules could be much fun. The focus would just be on the rules who's following them and who isn't. Yuk. Sorry for the long winded response.

[glenngsxr]

This is a tough one for sure Clarkie. Like I said earlier, you can't stop it.

In my book, there are 2 different types of cheaters.
1) The person who blatantly breaks the rules to gain an advantage. They are betting that someone does not call them out.

2) The person who tries mods that may be illegal or just outside of the rules. I don't think this person is as concerned with getting caught as the first type. In fact, I am willing to bet a many of great mods have been discovered in this manner. It actually advances the sport and technology, which is a good thing, but still wrong.

There may really only be two ways to get rid of cheating.
1) Get rid of humans
2) Get rid of the personal relationships within the club. It's much easier to call a person a liar (cheater) from afar than it is to call a friend that same thing to their face. Problem is.....without the personal relationships built within the club, nobody will show up.

Cheating may be a necessary evil.

[Clarkie]

Cheating on your spouse
LOL I think running a SBK in a SS class in a little different from cheating on your spouse

Glenn I agree there is always a gray area in every sport, like you said, pushing the limits improves the sport and the technology involved. But when pushing the rules a little turns into blantant cheating to win a $10 trophy, and driving honest people (or people who cant afford the cost of cheating) away from the sport it is a problem.

There are some pretty creative people on here, what are some cost effective ideas to control/monitor the cheating? No racing robots isnt an option :D

[Clarkie]

I can't imagine that being in a club where people don't respect themselves or one another enough to follow the rules could be much fun.
LMAO welcome to the MRA :lol:

As an engine builder it become almost a game to see what you can do that people will never find, these are more just tricks than cheating. I used to pay Bart and Brian when TK was still around, to have some of these things done, trust me they work. Bart still does some of the things we figured out and they work awesome, make power, and are LEGAL in the rule book, and per the manufacturer specs. No I wont tell you what we used to do, he is the one that does them and should benefit from the knowledge :wink:

[The GECCO]

Take golf, I would say no sport offers the chance to cheat as much as golf does, yet how many people are caught cheating every year (professional)? I can't remember when the last time was.
Threadjack in progress....I've literally never picked up a club so I'm totally ignorant about the sport and I have to ask - how do you cheat at golf? If I read your statement correctly you're saying there are many ways to do it? How? You have a club and a ball, are these things regulated? If so, isn't pretty easy to spot something that's not regulation (these aren't real complicated items, here) Unless you're talking about moving the ball or shaving strokes, but I can imagine either of those things are essentially impossible at the professional level? Curious...

[acrovixen]

Glenn, are you up to something "questionable?" LOL :wink: Ask Jason Pridmore for some golf tips (not cheating LOL) when he's at HPR next week - he's a bona fide PRO these days.

[cromer611]

Cheating, I know plenty of people who cheat. But it feels sooo good when you kick their ass on the track with hardly any money in your motor.
In the end when I can't put tons of money into my bike like other in this club, I just go faster than the cheater behind me. Eventually the cheaters call you a cheater cuz they can't cheat any harder lol.
Its pretty funny actually. In the end if you have to cheat in a small club that hardly anyone knows, your pathetic.

[Clarkie]

In the end if you have to cheat in a small club that hardly anyone knows, your pathetic.

Couldn't agree more Eric. Do you think there is any way to break the cycle of cheating that has almost become a way of life for some people in the MRA? Changing the class structure, tougher inspections, tougher penalties? You know motorcycles inside and out, is there an easy/cheap way to try and control it?

True Spec racing would work, but the cost of controlling/monitoring it wouldn't be feasible with the cost of spec motors or ECU's, and dyno's are too easy to cheat now days.

The rules proposal thread is open for the 2012 season, and people should think about ways to try and control the stupid cheating that is going on in a couple of classes, I am just not sure there is a way.

Trust me, the MRA already has a reputation as 'that club' and I was warned about it when I arrived in 2006. Cycles are hard to break sometimes and just pissing and moaning about it over a beer (as I used to do) doesnt help change things.

[DOUBLE A]

what about restrictor plates?

[Clarkie]

Not sure, but I would 'think' that would lower everyone's power including the people that are in fact legal. The tracks (HPR and Pueblo) are safe enough to run 220hp superbikes on them, so safety isnt the issue like Nascar at some tracks. But how would you monitor some of the cheating? If you cant monitor it cheaply, you cant try and regulate it.

I 'think' this is why it was easier in Moto2 to have spec motors, teams lease the motors and the motors are sealed which makes it easier to control/monitor engine modifications, but electronics are open. In BSB they are going to spec ECU's to try and control the class more (as well as tighter engine rules) and I guess we will see how that works.

If OEM's dont believe in a club to control their classes, they are less inclined to support that club with either contingency (yes it has almost all disappeared) or rider support.

[DOUBLE A]

I didnt know anyone was cheating.... ROR is unlimited and at least the people I know that have mods dont run supersport... what are we talking about 250's?? I didnt think there was anything to do to those? Unless someone is using a 750 motor in a six I dont know about. lol Anyway I dont think its a huge lap time difference in a cheater bike than a noncheater bike with these guys their talent is what puts them in the upper etchelon right not the bike. But I guess I dont know the low down. Anyway practice is for cheaters :lol: & your cheating if your in bed by 8p.m. on saturday night ST! j/k haha

[Clarkie]

It's not so much about who is cheating, or who is getting paid to build their engines (they are just doing the job they were paid to do), it's about how to police it. I know quite a few racers who went crazy on their 600's and dont race the supersport classes any longer, because they have integrity, other racers have mods which are illegal for the classes they race, and they dont have any integrity. Racer's make a choice when they sign up for the races as to which classes they enter, some choose correctly and some dont care if they are cheating as they are convinced everyone else is cheating. It's a never ending cycle that started many years ago, just because someone is faster than you doesnt mean they are cheating :wink: It's also easy as a rider to back out of the throttle a bit down the straight so it doesnt look so obvious.

As Eric said, it feels good to beat someone who is cheating when you are on a legal bike, but I totally disagree about not being able to go faster on an illegal (or modified) bike, unless the mods weren't done correctly. I used to swap from my GSXR1000 Superstock motor to my GSXR1000 big bore Superbike motor in front of everyone, so people knew I was changing motors and hadnt 'forgotten' to change back to the SS motor. While I didnt go a lot 'faster' on the SBK motor (I didnt really need to), the lap times were a heck of a lot easier and as a result my tires and equipment lasted a lot longer.

I went through a lot of teardowns from 06-08 and while they were good, there are things people could have done that wouldnt have been found. How do you combat this (within reason), I am not sure there is a way that is cost effective. In case you were wondering, you can get a 6mm overbore for an EX250, not saying people are doing it, but I know it could be built so a simple post race inspection wouldnt find it :wink:

Now with the Rules thread open for rule suggestions, people should think about if they even want to have restricted classes (supersport, superstock, lightwieght, middleweight, heavyweight, open), how they are policed, or if they would rather piss and moan about how "they know someone is cheating" and not do anything proactive to try and stop it. The board members only do what is in their power to do, but unlike a lot of sports, the MRA members get a chance to shape the future of Motorcycle Racing in Colorado.

[DOUBLE A]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

[Clarkie]

Some clubs do this, it works well. It will stop people just pissing and moaning and it's like a put up or shut up situation, but people are still worried about the stigma of protesting people. People complain about the club/board not doing enough, now people have the chance to change things by submitting their rule changes and attending the rules meeting.

I went last year and I was very impressed with how it went down, even if my ideas werent passed :lol:

[DOUBLE A]

Somehow I think you knew we would arrive here at your last post in the thread :lol: , anyway it seems pretty serious. I would never exersize it, but thats just me. You would be gambling with probably $300-$400, and then you look like an asshole for protesting. But that may be just my .02. haha

Good Ideas though, I hope everyone gets involved in the rules this year! :lol:

[The GECCO]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...

[Clarkie]

(shhh.....Grasshopper is learning stuff, dont confuse him :lol: )

[benfoxmra95]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...


LMFAO....

where is the "like" button

[rforsythe]

LMFAO....

where is the "like" button

I'm sure it's in the rulebook somewhere...

[HAMMER]

Anyone who wants to tear down my 250 is more than welcome to ... I don't think schramster cares one bit either.... Do you even watch the races ? ... I mean we lean on each other for 20 plus corners and are side by side down the straights for 6 laps in a row ... I haven't noticed any super fast bikes? ... Well cezmats bike was kinda zippy ...lol

[PremiumBlend]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

[DOUBLE A]

How about a fee too protest a bike for a Cylinder head off teardown, if you loose the protest you loose the money & the bike in protest gets it, If you win the cheater gets nothing and looses all points for the season, the protester gets his money back?

Seriously? Have you even glanced at the rulebook? Say, section 12? Give it a look sometime, it hasn't changed in the last decade or so...

Glenn you know I can't read! :lol:

[Clarkie]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

A great idea and is done in a lot of series, but if someone turned up to the first race with a modified bike and was given the paint tech make it wouldn't be found. Big bore or high compression pistons can be 'hidden' from a borescope inspection by media blasting the face of the piston, the same way machining the valve pockets to allow piston-valve clearance when running a certain squish and retaining the desired cam timing is possible.

Stock clutch pressure plates can be machined so they 'look' stock when the clutch cover is removed, but work with an aftermarket slipper clutch that is installed under it. This 'may' of been done in the MRA years ago before most of the bikes came stock with a slipper clutch :D

Trap speeds (measured with a radar gun) wont account for rider weight, in the 125 and 250 Grand Prix classes they used to weigh the riders, when I raced as a wildcard at the Australian GP in 1999 Rossi and Melandri laughed their asses off when I got on the scales and I was around 145lbs, bastards! :D

Hammer, no one is acusing a particular rider or engine builder of cheating, but I am sure people wouldn't say you are cheating if you bought a bunch of beer and let people tear your bike down themselves one Saturday night, you might get all the parts back :lol:

[The GECCO]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

Good idea, and there is a myriad of ways to "seal" a motor after it's been inspected...the problem is that it has to either be torn down and inspected first, or assembled/sealed by a known, impartial third party. The expensive/difficult part is insuring the motor was legal before it was sealed.

[HAMMER]

I like beer ......

[HAMMER]

I was just saying that the 250 battles are some of the best of the weekend ... Up front and all the way thru the feild .. there doesn't seem to be ANY bike anywhere on the grid that are at all faster than anyone else's... No one is just disappearing at the front or blowing the doors off anyone ... I get passed almost every single time down the long straight ... And I can draft pass almost anyone also .... We just need more new riders who wanna turn ... The battles are fn awesome ..




Someone bring ME beer and a decent mechanic and there more than welcome to check out the turd fif.... Prob still oil in the air box from the oil over fill at ppir... And a dirty airfilter( tony@faster LOL ) .... As long as she's running for Sunday :P

[kamper11]

This is a topic that I would believe every single MRA rider has an opinion about. Great discussion thus far. My .02c... As the newest guy in the spec 250 class - Tony B addressed it perfectly - simply stating that in a spec class - its about the integrity of the class - and if there are "cheater" bikes - than the class becomes a "joke". I have no idea about the who, why and what the accusations may stem from - and frankly - don't know that I need to or want to - but sure would love to know that the rules are being followed.

Make no bones about it - right now - I am THE slowest guy out there on a 250. And will make no excuses about it being the bike - it's me getting used to the new bike, new racing, and frankly - battling with myself to get better at my ability. So - while I may not be close now - I'd like to believe that if I can truly improve my abilities - I'd be competitive and certainly in a spec class - that would be the promise and foundation. the bike is a common denominator, and the rider skill is the difference. There are some great skilled riders in this class - that's apparent!

In closing - I have no clue if anyone is or isn't - and certainly not here to point a finger or join a rumor-mill! I cant state how excited I am to be here, and looking forward to the last few weekends of the season! I'll close by re-iterating Tony's point - its a spec class - and if there is any level of cheating - we (the MRA) lose the integrity and intent of the class - and at that point - what is there?

[DOUBLE A]

I was just saying that the 250 battles are some of the best of the weekend ... Up front and all the way thru the feild .. there doesn't seem to be ANY bike anywhere on the grid that are at all faster than anyone else's... No one is just disappearing at the front or blowing the doors off anyone ... I get passed almost every single time down the long straight ... And I can draft pass almost anyone also .... We just need more new riders who wanna turn ... The battles are fn awesome ..

OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT WATCH VINTAGE!!

[PremiumBlend]

I'm just spitballing ideas in my head, maybe it's a dumb idea or you guys can expand on it but you know those stickers on electronic items that say "Warranty Void if Tampered" meaning don't cut it off and peak inside when your TV blows up or your warranty is void?

Well, maybe something similar can be done with bikes where are sticker or paint is applied to key bolts and parts on the bike. Say for example the MRA devises a particular style of sticker or paint or something that you apply to engine bolts, frame bolts, head bolts, etc. that will clearly show if that bolt has been tampered with so you cannot do an engine swap, or head swap without notifying the MRA. Theory is if you show up on tech day and that sticker/paint is tampered with then you better start explaining why it isn't there. If it's not there, then you can race that day if you'd like but your place and points do not count until the bike is reinspected and approved.

Like I said... just spitballing some ideas.

Good idea, and there is a myriad of ways to "seal" a motor after it's been inspected...the problem is that it has to either be torn down and inspected first, or assembled/sealed by a known, impartial third party. The expensive/difficult part is insuring the motor was legal before it was sealed.

That's kind of where my idea was going... I assume this level of inspection would only qualify for very few races, especially at this magnitude. But something along the lines of what you are saying Gecco... the bike must be fully inspected by a 3rd party and signed off before that racer can even think of submitting an entry form. I guess one way to make sure no parts are swapped but still allow for some of those shade tree mechanics to build their motors is to have Bartman or someone use a special impression set and stamp verifications into the pistons and other parts as to verify those parts were used upon install. Again, just ideas...

[Clarkie]

Again, this thread isnt to place accusations on a rider/s or engine builder/s. Cheating is a part of motorsports, no not everyone cheats but there is always one or two people who like to push the rules into the gray area, and while it is pretty much just fun for them is pisses other people off and breeds contempt. It can be contempt for the rider/s or towards the club for not controlling it.

Trust me, every club has suffered from 'the old boys club' where if you know the right people things will get overlooked, the MRA in the past was no exception to this. Those who have been around the club for a while know what I am talking about and no it isnt worth even repeating, that was then, this is now.

People should just start thinking about how 'they' think it should work and present their ideas (in the correct format) to the rules committee. Every member in the club gets a chance once a year to have their say with the rules for the following year, make the most of it :wink:

The MRA is going from strength to strength while many other clubs are doing just the opposite, this is largely due to the Board Members efforts as well as all the volunteers that help a weekend come together. Now is your chance to have your input into the club, draft up rules and ideas to try and grow the club even further. Yes a lot of the ideas will get shot down, heck mine were last year, but a simple idea gets people thinking about things more than just doing the same thing year after year.

[Clarkie]

Oh, and I will buy the beer if Hammer lets someone tear his 250 down to the crank, puts all the parts in a bucket and mixes it up :lol:

[acrovixen]

Oh, and I will buy the beer if Hammer lets someone tear his 250 down to the crank, puts all the parts in a bucket and mixes it up :lol:

Gee, you REALLY love to kick a hornet's nest, don't you? :lol:

[HAMMER]

As long as she runs on Sunday ..... It's all you clarkie

[HAMMER]

As long as she runs on Sunday ..... It's all you clarkie

[slo lee]

In my mind this discussion says alot about how much people care about fair play and competition. My take . . . everyone cares a lot. I'm curious, the rulebook indicates how to make protests and specifies the penalties (pg 44). With the means to protest available what is the reason for this discussion? Is it that the cost of the protest is too high and people are not protesting? I'm new at this but I'm thinking that I don't want to add bureaucratic expense to getting a bike ready, for eg. getting an inspection and having it certified and then sealing it somehow so it can't be tampered with. I may be very wrong but I think most guys follow the rules for the most part. . . . and if you don't agree and feel strongly about it, follow through and make a protest. Seems like the penalties are severe enough both ways. My $.02.

[Bartman]

Clunkie you and I both know how hard it is to catch someone that does not want to be caught, and it is not like we are the AMA where you race one class a day and there is plenty of time to look over the top bikes and some mid packers. So when you have someone running mwss and hwss and mw enduro there is time to change stuff to no longer be ss legal and I can't do a teardown of any depth in between races so it has to be at the end of the day. I am working on a system now that may help but will just have to see how it works.
I do think the competitors need to be willing to step up and do a protest and the rules are clearly stated on how to do that, some of the issue over protests over has been people thinking that they had to say exactly what is illegal and I don't think that is right and I don't read it like that. If you want it torn down to the crank pay your money and we will see what we can find. If we find anything illegal you get your money back and if found legal your money goes to the guy to put his shit back together.
Bartman

[DUCDOC]

I am the top dog at Northern Colorado Euro & if you want an engine built it will be built as long as you can pay the bill! Not really concerned bout it being a cheater motor as I wont be riding it anyways. Hell I will build you an engine if we race in the same class! I have built engines for a former top 5 AMA Formula Thunder race team..... You know what people were cheating there too. I did not because my parts were coming from Ducati Corse & properly assembled just plain kicked ass & were legal!!!!!! :twisted:
Cheaters will always be cheaters!
And I will always be more than happy to take their money!

[chris nami]

I think if your a builder that's not part of the club...take money and build away, good for you. If your a member of this or any club, I feel you have an obligation to turn the cheater down or call them out. As a member of a club you are in competition with friends and racing enthusiasts, not pros and companies. This is not the AMA or world superbike or moto GP. Our livelihoods dont depend on winning and our kids don't go hungry if you don't finish first in MWSS...
Be a real racer! win by being better on the track not by paying or being paid to steal from your friends. Take some pride in who you are.
If I was to find out that a builder or a shop promotes cheating and is part of my club, not only would they never get my business, I would make sure that everyone I know would know what kind of shop or builder they are... if you can cheat and steal from your friends, what would you be willing to do to your customers!?
I know I can look my friends I the eye. -Bacon

[Clarkie]

Clunkie you and I both know how hard it is to catch someone that does not want to be caught, and it is not like we are the AMA where you race one class a day and there is plenty of time to look over the top bikes and some mid packers. So when you have someone running mwss and hwss and mw enduro there is time to change stuff to no longer be ss legal and I can't do a teardown of any depth in between races so it has to be at the end of the day. I am working on a system now that may help but will just have to see how it works.
I do think the competitors need to be willing to step up and do a protest and the rules are clearly stated on how to do that, some of the issue over protests over has been people thinking that they had to say exactly what is illegal and I don't think that is right and I don't read it like that. If you want it torn down to the crank pay your money and we will see what we can find. If we find anything illegal you get your money back and if found legal your money goes to the guy to put his shit back together.
Bartman

I totally agree Bartman, I am not saying the club/board needs to do any more than you are already doing. I just live two States away and I hear a lot of the grumblings, baseless accusations, and basic pissing and moaning about people cheating. This not only takes away from the sport, it also takes a LOT away from the riders who do well and arent cheating.

All riders go through cycles or when things click and come together. Some riders have some amazing talent from day one, or talent that crosses over from another sport. Sometimes a rider may make a change to their equipment (bike, tires, suspension etc) and all of a sudden they go a lot faster than people are used to seeing from them. It sucks when people just decide they are 'cheating' as everyone puts a lot of time and money into this hobby, and it is like a kick in the guts when you do well and people are talking about 'cheating' but wont back it up. Yeah I know it happens in most sports but the MRA has a 'reputation' amoung other road racing clubs regardless of what may be the actual truth.

Sometimes the history of a club dictates this, when I came to the MRA in 2006 I was warned by a few people who were racing at the time, about the blatant cheating (illegal slipper clutches etc) that went on in the MRA. Maybe do a better job of educating the riders about how to protest and what the cost is and then they can either put up or shut up. Heck even a page in the program explaining how to go about it, RTFRB as a reply doesnt always work as not everyone actually reads it believe it or not, this was shown earlier in this thread.

I also totally agree with Chris about engine builders having a responsibilty to the club. If engine builder's want the club to grow and prosper, which will keep customers being able to afford to go into their store, they shouldnt really say publicaly they dont have a problem with building cheater bikes if the customer can pay for it. ALL engine builders can cheat, but along with the risk of their rider being busted, the shop's reutation is linked directly to it. Public perception has a lot of effect on the sport of motorcycle racing, and the people/businesses invloved.

At AMA level where it is a professional sport (well used to be) sure go for it, but this is a hobby for 99% or people and a builder publicly saying they have no problem cheating if the customer pays for it sort of brings into question the legallity of any other bike that builder has built.....

The MRA was good to me, and while a lot of people say I am full of shit (yeah sometimes I am :D ) I want to see the MRA around for a long time. If the general consensus is the "cheaters will always be cheaters" then obviously I am wasting my time and I should just keep working on my tan here in Vegas :D

[AdamandNoahsdad]

I don't understand how the builder of a bike has a responsibility to the club to only build legal bikes. Isn't that like saying that a gun manufacturer is responsible for a drive by shooting?(or would that be the car manufacturer?) They both just supply a tool, how that tool is used is up to the person who purchased it. I feel that if a shop or person is building a race bike, and they know what class it is going to be raced in, they have a responsibility to the customer to know (or find out) what is legal for that class. If the customer insists on the bike being built to be illegal, whatever moral issues exist about cheating now fall on the shoulders of the customer. The shop is being paid to provide the best work and parts that it can. How that is used is up to the customer.
In our short time being involved in racing (3 years) we have definately ran into people cheating (yes, a kx100 looks exacly like a kx85 if you take the factory graffics off). We barely have enough money to race, let alone put up money for protest fees or build our own cheater bike. We had no choice but to race against that person anyway, and yes we did beat that person more than once. I have to agree with Cromer, it felt great!
Cheating to me is all about personal integrity. Some people have it, and some don't. The ones that don't sure are fun to beat!
From where we stand, we are looking at joining the 250 production class with a bike that we have $450 invested in. We will be racing against people with 10 to 20 times as much money wrapped up in their legal bikes and god knows how much wrapped up in illegal bikes. It doesn't really matter to us if they are making 2 or 3 or even 10 more horsepower than we are. The important thing is to teach my kids that they don't need to cheat, they just need to work hard with what they have available to them, which isn't much and probably never will be.
Ok, now for my possibly constructive part, what about random bike inspections? Kind of like random drug testing at certain jobs. Pick one bike at random each race and tear it down. If everyone who enters pays a small fee of say, $2 or $3 it should cover the cost. If you are found legal you get the dough to put your bike back together, if you are found to be cheating you lose all points, cannot race that class for the remainder of the year and have to put your own bike back together. The thought would be the same as a random drug test. Fear of being caught at random should make everyone want to be legal at all times.

[chris nami]

It's not my my belief that a builder has a responsibility to build legal bikes...I couldn't give a crap. I do believe that a member of a club has an obligation to be a stand up friend. If said builder is also a member of the club that he is building motors for... then yes, he is still on the hook to be a stand up guy! If I found out that my friend cheated against me or my friend/builder built a motor for another friend to beat me...he could expect a busted face...if your my friend and you steal money out of my wallet, I'll kick your ass! Same goes if you cheat me in a race...end of story. -Bacon

[benfoxmra95]

Pick one bike at random each race and tear it down. If everyone who enters pays a small fee of say, $2 or $3 it should cover the cost. If you are found legal you get the dough to put your bike back together,


I asked glenn today about how many people where entered in this class and he said around 10 plus or minus a few depending on weekend....

$3 x 15 riders = $45

not quite enough to tear a bike down to the crank

sorry man not picking on you, please keep your ideas coming, but $45 won't even get you a head gasket let alone labor fees etc... to properly tear down and rebuild a motor.

This 250 class has me scratching my head.

how is that you have to run a stock shock but can spend $500+ dollars on the forks.... seriously? wtf?

[Geoff85]

So this mentality has been going on for years everyone thinks they are the best rider, tuner,bike,builder, engine builder so if anyone beats them no matter what the reality is the other guy must be cheating! This is not only in this club it goes on all over. It's human nature if someone spends what they feel is a lot of $$ and someone beats them who maybe is riding a roach it could not possibly be because they got out ridden.... If everyone spent the time that it took to follow this thread and put it toward working on their bikes it might be worth 2 positions in the results.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Ben
I meant pick one bike out of everyone who raced that day, not just the 250 class. I was thinking on a larger scale for the fee and a smaller scale on the number of bikes being inspected.
We were sitting laughing/feeling bad last weekend because we were reading the posting about someone having new, trick fork internals for the 250s for $800. Someone made the comment that the price was 1/4 of what the whole bike cost. Its almost twice what we have into our whole bike!
I also agree with Geoffs last post. I knew I was never going to be able to afford the fastest best bikes for the kids, so I decided that they would have safe, fun bikes and hopefully develop their riding skills.
The kids still remember being at a track day at IMI two years ago while Geoff was there on his sumo bike. Thanks for helping inspire them to try harder!

[kamper11]

Oooooh Man - Adam and Noah on 250? Someone else to beat me!!!

I love it Mike - can't wait to see em out there! I'll try to keep up!

For what its worth - my 250 is to spec and no suspender mods at all - not even fluid altho I may throw $12 at a quart of heavy fork oil for next season -sure to shave 10 seconds :twisted:

[KFinn]

in today's current situation, how can someone afford to pay the fee if they can't even afford to show up for a whole season?

Just a thought

[2Blue]

Very interesting topic!


Trust me, every club has suffered from 'the old boys club' where if you know the right people things will get overlooked, the MRA in the past was no exception to this.
=D> =D> =D>


At the end of the day people cheat, other racers who arent cheating walk away from the sport because they are sick of the cheating.
Well put!

[KFinn]

At the end of the day people cheat, other racers who arent cheating walk away from the sport because they are sick of the cheating.
Well put!
So thinking about the big picture and putting this topic and the other current one together.....

Seems like maybe one effort is to try to reduce this since obviously fix it completely is impossible.

If racers leave because its expensive and others leave because of cheating, and no one protests possible cheaters due to the cost of the fee, then is there a way to reduce the cost to protest where the accused can still afford to get the bike assembled but the accuser can afford the risk?

[Bartman]

Kev the protest fees are way below the expense of rebuilding after a tear down, not sure if you are getting this, you are only out your protest fee if the protested is found legal so if you are sure you will incur no expenses. Course you need to be sure and there in is the rub, for instanse many people came to me sure you were cheating because you got so much faster than last year and I am pretty sure you are not cheating :D
Galster beat all our asses last year on a clapped out ZX6 so while some think that cheating is rampant most of it is just some getting out raced plain and simple but some can't see or believe that so it must be cheating.
Said it before and I will say it again all our classes need on some level to be self policing, even if you don't want to do a formal protest tell me what you think. I can't be everywhere all the time so if you see something even if it is Tony Ross speeding thru the pits tell any of us board members so we can at least look at it.
On a side note I will be checking for fire extinguishers so have yours out or get busted. :lol:

[KFinn]

Oh I understand it clearly. I have read the rule book! :) But to me, I am out there racing my ass of to have fun and wouldn't know if someone was cheating or out racing me. Hence why i stated it as a 'risk' to be the accuser.

[JimWilson29]

Oh I understand it clearly. I have read the rule book! :) But to me, I am out there racing my ass of to have fun and wouldn't know if someone was cheating or out racing me. Hence why i stated it as a 'risk' to be the accuser.

if you see a bike with number 913 on the track or getting pushed through the pits, it's a cheater bike. :D

[Bartman]

We are currently watching that 913 guy for sure and will swing down the hammer soon, should be fun when I do as well maybe I can get Bob to meatball him in am after he runs over someone else. :lol: I have video of the incident and as much as I hate to admit it it was not Tonys fault, if I knew how I would post it up.
Anywho let the cheating resume as normal. :twisted:

[chris nami]

I think it's cheating of Dalton doesn't have to start facing backwards from pit lane in open SS!! :))

[loujr]

I think it's cheating of Dalton doesn't have to start facing backwards from pit lane in open SS!! :))

I agree!!!

[kamper11]

Instead of forcing guys to go find the highly restrictive snorkels - likely not too hard to find as probly anyone with a 250 in CO has pulled it - and since we are racing at a mile high - any chance we make it simple and all pull our snorkels? Im sure it wont make me faster - LOL - but seems reasonable solution for this class in CO.

[T Baggins]

Instead of forcing guys to go find the highly restrictive snorkels - likely not too hard to find as probly anyone with a 250 in CO has pulled it - and since we are racing at a mile high - any chance we make it simple and all pull our snorkels? Im sure it wont make me faster - LOL - but seems reasonable solution for this class in CO.

Bart is looking into this. We can get the snorkels for about $26 each.

That said, since many don't have them (and none that came from Cali had them) it may be reasonable to simply change the rule.

[kamper11]

My perspective is simply have the rest of us pull ours - sell em to you'z guys that didnt have em - and call it even for the rest of the season...

seriously - seems easier for the rest of us to pull em than have everyone else find em and buy em - especially if for rule change next year - it passes that the snorkel is not required.

+1 for the rule change

[mkdiehl]

As one of the 250's that need a snorkel....I am not sure letting everyone remove theirs is a good idea.

From what i understand, having the snorkel doesn't really affect performance of an unmodified engine but will allow gains if someone were to modify the engine.

If this is true, then keeping it on will limit the "hard to find" modifications...especially if the mods aren't effective because of it.

On the other hand...I am not looking forward to trying to get that thing on there once I get one (got a wanted add on Craig's lists already).

$.02

[rybo]

Guys,

I'm going to get in touch with the class sponsor (MotoAdventure Kawasaki) and see if I can get good pricing on the part for those that need it.

They're closed today, but should be open tomorrow.

According to Bike Bandit they are available separately and cost about $25 each.

I'll post about it here when I have more info:

Scott

[kamper11]

If MR Diehl's post is correct - than likely best we do keep the snork's in

MKD - when I installed mine - it wasnt that bad - throw some soapy water on the seal and it will go back in much easier

[AdamandNoahsdad]

That's weird, I thought they were mentioned in the rule book. Shouldn't everyone have known about them? It only takes about 12 seconds to check if a bike has one. How ironic that this happens while this thread is posted.

[rforsythe]

If MR Diehl's post is correct - than likely best we do keep the snork's in

MKD - when I installed mine - it wasnt that bad - throw some soapy water on the seal and it will go back in much easier

Opening up the airflow will always allow for greater changes downstream than you could get away with otherwise. Unless those that pull them then also go and make the same changes, just removing them won't suddenly level the field. It might be as simple as new jets in the carbs, but the rulebook is pretty explicit on this. It's either a spec class, or it's not. It's unfortunate that it affected most of the class due to oversight (I don't believe it was intentional cheating), but that by itself is not justification to change the rules to accommodate those that broke the rules.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Just curious. What happened to the people that didn't have snorkels?


By the way, we now have a snorkel for rent for the final two races. Lol

[rforsythe]

FWIW I think I found them for $18 online, so that plus some minor cash outlay for leaner jets, and these riders will be good to go. It's not like "stock bike plus exhaust" jet settings are super-secret or hard to change. Both mods easily done inside an hour and everyone's legal again.

[mkdiehl]

People without it had to pay a $25 fine.

In response to one of your other posts above......it is clear in the rule book. But, when you get a bike and know that you didn't take anything off, it is hard to determine that you missed it.

My bike was "torn down" already once at HPR (second race of the season there i think) and nobody noticed or told me about it then.

Yes, it is our responsibility, but as i mentioned never had it so didn't know i was missing it.

wanna sell yours??? :)

[rybo]

Mike,

This was a bit of a unique situation.

To start the class Tony funded, and put together a "group buy" on some bikes that had been raced in California. Tony went and got the bikes and delivered them to the new owners here in Colorado.

Most of the bikes that failed to have the snorkel attached were from those transactions, and as such Tony graciously paid the fine for those competitors that bought bikes from him.

The bikes that finished 1st and 2nd this weekend in the class both had snorkels in place.

Snorkel- less bikes were fined a small amount (that Tony paid) and left to continue racing on the premise that the situation will be fully fixed before round 7. Those with more serious infractions received a greater penalty - loss of points for the round and not able to race on sunday unless the problems were fixed.

Unless the parts are unavailable I don't see any reason this whole thing can't be all fixed by R7

Scott

[kamper11]

I would anticipate most any of the Kawi shops - have these as "take-offs" and probly in a box somewhere in the shop...

my neighbor is a tech at g-force - I'll ask him later today if hes got any and what it would take to get them - cheeeeeeeap

[AdamandNoahsdad]

When can we start the conspiracy theory posts about how Tony knowingly removed them in an effort to make money for the club via fines?

Just kidding Tony.

[kamper11]

After his well known role - from the grassy knoll in Dallas TX - he had to follow up with something "big"... just wait til Jesse Ventura get's wind of this one...

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Tony paid the fines?
What a stand up guy! No wonder he is the prez.

I knew about the bikes and Tony's purchase of them, but I didn't know they had been raced before.

This is a great reminder for Adam to dig into the online parts fiche and see if we are missing anything important.
Both of our 250's are used and incomplete so I understand not knowing what is supposed to be there.

[T Baggins]

When can we start the conspiracy theory posts about how Tony knowingly removed them in an effort to make money for the club via fines?

Just kidding Tony.

Believe me, I would have never tried that hard... I would have just given the club the money in the first place... :lol:

Since none of the initial bikes we got to start the class had them, and nobody took one off, we literally had no idea that they were missing. To call it a "snorkel" is a bit of a stretch anway... I expected it to be/look like the "carp mouth" type snorkels they have on dirtbikes and the old yamaha airboxes... It's a rectangular black rubber box that mounts to the side of the airbox, behind the subframe rail. Even looking at one bike that has one and one bike that doesn't, it takes a minute to see what you're looking for.

Because the bikes I provided were missing those, I thought it was only fair that I paid everyone's fine. They did nothing wrong, imo.

I'll also pay the cost to put one on their bikes if that's the direction we go with the rules.

Talk about embarrassing though... sigh.

One things for sure... there is NO performance advantage to not having one... and since everyone who keeps beating me HAS one - I'm gonna put one on regardless of what the outcome of the rule review is. :lol:

[mkdiehl]

"and since everyone who keeps beating me HAS one - I'm gonna put one on regardless of what the outcome of the rule review is. "

Good point Tony...anyone consider it makes you faster???

[acrovixen]

Just pedal faster, Tony!! :lol:

[KFinn]

or tony could try drinking less the night before.... ? hehe

[Bueller999]

One things for sure... there is NO performance advantage to not having one... and since everyone who keeps beating me HAS one - I'm gonna put one on regardless of what the outcome of the rule review is. :lol:

I am not running production 250 at this time so I took my snorkle out before the 4 hr.
I am topping out @ 94-95mph (GPS) on the straight, I put the snorkle in Sunday so that another racer could borrow it to race and in practice I was 3-4 mph slower and my lap times were also off. I am a bit rich as it is on my main and that would have made it worse but I am seeing a definite difference.

[Scored51]

The bikes that finished 1st and 2nd this weekend in the class both had snorkels in place.

So... doesn't this mean the snorkels make you go faster? :-k

[zx6racer]

I raced against those bikes (250s) here in california, they were raced at willow springs in Rosamond (high desert) not as high as a mile high, but still up there. We are allowed to pull the snorkel but it didnt make much of a difference really. I ran a 1:41.3 and weigh around 170 (without gear), the track record is a 1:40.07 by a guy that weighs 135 (without gear). So as the saying goes, LBs equal HPs!! And I'm just curious, how much do the "fast" guys weigh up there, as that seems to be the biggest issue. Need to know how much to starve myself before Oct 8th for round 8. :wink:

[T Baggins]

Hey Josh!

Hope you can make it out for sure! If we do well at PPIR we'll give it every effort to run HPR in October.

That said, PPIR is a blast on the 250's as it's a small, 1.2mi course. You don't lift, at all, for turn 1-2-3... so if you can make that, you really should!

Our guys are 135 - 185 for the most part - I'm pushing 170 after my cruise... Certainly weight is a benefit, but the skinniest guy isn't winning (yet) and even my big butt had a lap record for 3 laps at PPIR.

Just got off the phone with Richard Barnett and he'd like to try to make one weekend or the other - and another of your WSMC 250 guys (Dennis Horgan) was here this weekend.

Snorkels didn't seem to be a difference maker, really, but we'll see about getting some in time for the last round so everyone is 'legal'.

[Bartman]

If MR Diehl's post is correct - than likely best we do keep the snork's in

MKD - when I installed mine - it wasnt that bad - throw some soapy water on the seal and it will go back in much easier

Opening up the airflow will always allow for greater changes downstream than you could get away with otherwise. Unless those that pull them then also go and make the same changes, just removing them won't suddenly level the field. It might be as simple as new jets in the carbs, but the rulebook is pretty explicit on this. It's either a spec class, or it's not. It's unfortunate that it affected most of the class due to oversight (I don't believe it was intentional cheating), but that by itself is not justification to change the rules to accommodate those that broke the rules.

You would think it makes sense that if you open up the airbox it will make more power but most of the time it will hurt more than help and in the case of the turdfiddys I think it is hurting and if I were to build one I would leave it in there. The size of the hole with the snorkel removed is barely bigger than the snorkel it self so simply removing it makes no difference and I don't for a minute believe it will make a difference if it is built or not, now if you removed the airbox or drilled some auxiliary holes in the airbox that might make a difference.
None of the infractions from this weekend really would have made any real difference to the performance of these bikes and I really think if you all want parity you have to look at the weight issue cause until you do there will be no level playing field. When you have 30HPs to work with every pound is more important than ever, for instance if we assume a bike weight of 350 in race trim a rider that weights 140 has 16.3 lbs per HP and a rider that weights 180 has 17.6 lbs per HP and that is a big difference that rider talent will not be able to overcome.
If rider talent is equal the lighter rider will be faster so PLEASE don't give the argument it comes down to the rider either way cause that is BS and you know it, we can come up with a way if we want and yes it may be a pain but it will be the only way to make it a real level playing field.

[The GECCO]

If rider talent is equal the lighter rider will be faster so PLEASE don't give the argument it comes down to the rider either way cause that is BS and you know it, we can come up with a way if we want and yes it may be a pain but it will be the only way to make it a real level playing field.
Very true. Rider weight is always important, but MUCH more so on a 30hp bike than a 150hp bike.

But, as Bart eludes to....do you REALLY want to break out the scales and set a minimum combined bike/rider weight?

[Bartman]

Glenn the answer is yes yes I do want to bring scales if we do the rules for it.

[mkdiehl]

i think that would be interesting.....but an upper limit would be a good idea....you can only put so much weight on Spencer's bike.

As one of the lighter riders, I do see a difference on the straightaway speeds. I go by Brian like he is on a 125 down the straight....would be nice to see who the better rider actually is. I am not sure where we are finishing shows that....

[Bartman]

Looking at a set of scales right now, looks to be in the 250 range hows that sound to you, 250$ to weight in the 250s.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just tell the fat guys to stick to the bigger bikes? Just bring up the whole bear on a tricycle in the circus thing.

[Bartman]

Most of us are a touch bigger than 130lbs so if we make it a midget only class how many will we have racing it. I truly would like to see it be as even as possible and there is only one way to do that.
Even if we make everybody weight the same it will still not be a line from end to end it will break out into small groups just like all our other classes, on a side note everybody came out clean in the SS checks so I really don't believe that there is rampant cheating in the MRA.
We have a reputation for being a superbike club and I don't know why, most of our guys have run supersport bikes and only a few really ran a proper superbike.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

130 lbs = midget.

[Clarkie]

The Aprilia Cup series (FUSA national series) used to have a class within a class, because all the bikes weighed pretty close to each other (like the 250 Ninja's should) they had a heavyweight class for guys that weighed over a certain amount. I 'think' it was over 165lbs in street clothes, it was cool as it gave the bigger guys a chance to win their own class, within a class, basically bragging rights.

In a low horsepower spec class (the Aprilia RS250's was a dyno controlled class with a max of 62hp, if you were 62.1hp you were DQ'd, I spent most of the time de-tuning my bike to meet the limit LOL) the bigger guys were at a disadvantage with the power-weight ratio.

Bart, maybe rather try and weigh the bikes where you can see if any 'major' weight saving mods have been done pretty easily, create a 'big boy' or whatever the board wants to call it, so the racers who are at a disadvantage are racing against other racers closer in weight. Run at the same time obviously, everyone gets points towards the overall, but by scoring the heavier (ie. normal weight :D ) riders together you may keep them coming out and racing.

[HAMMER]

THAT'S A COOL IDEA... Even tho I honestly think if I was 180 I would still brake hard and and stay close to the front ...... Let's thro a weight on my bike for qualifying And see if Im dog slow ....25 lbs

[HAMMER]

I'm not scarred to try .. and I think people will be seriously dissapointed .. fk it toss 50 on there

[Clarkie]

It was a cool idea, the year I won the Aprilia Cup Championship I started at 150lbs fresh of the boat from Australia, I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol:

With some riders the weight doesnt matter, the team I was racing for brought a 130lb kid over from Australia for two rounds, he used to give me shit about how they needed two cows to make my leathers (little shit) but I beat him in both rounds. Yeah he went on to race World Grand Prix 250's for a couple of years, but we both learned weight isnt everything.

The heavier weight class just gave guys who thought they weighed too much, something to shoot for. Cool idea, didnt impact the actual class, and didnt cost any more money to run. I know a couple of racers back then that wouldnt have kept racing the class if they didnt add that section of the class, full grids meant great racing.

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Just an observation.
We are just finishing up our second year with Rocky Mountain Mini Moto where the bikes have even less horsepower than the 250 production bikes. Adam is pretty much the smallest rider out there (Unless Schrammy shows up. Lol) at 100lbs. He was able to out accelerate most of the riders out there but wasn't able to win because he didn't have enough cornering speed. The whole series is pretty much dominated by the relatively "porky" Hammer, who weighs in the neighborhood of 150lbs. That "fat bastard" Hammer is even able to win the F3 class(65CC) on his f1(50cc) bike despite giving up 50lbs to midget boy Adam. The way I see it, fast guys will be fast even if they aren't the smallest guys out there.

Being 195 lbs I definately see the irony of a 130lb guy wanting to have weight parody with all racers of the class. It could also be possible to even out some of the weight issues by allowing heavier riders to modify their bikes for more horsepower. You could do a little bit of math and match up power to weight ratios. It seems like a lot of work to make things even.
Anyway, back on topic. It doesn't matter if not having the snorkel turns out to be an advantage or not. The rulebook says they need to be there. If everyone wants to get rid of them, then that needs to be brought up for next years rulebook. Its all of our jobs to follow the rulebook just like it is written until we can agree on changes for next year.

Hats off to Tony for how he handled the fines! What an upstanding guy!

[acrovixen]

[quote="Clarkie"] I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol: [quote]

What do you mean "back then?!" :lol:

[fairrpe86]

[quote="Clarkie"] I finished the year at 165, beer was food back then :lol: [quote]

What do you mean "back then?!" :lol:

You two are wineo's now so therefor "back then" fits very well!

[HAMMER]

Porky....lol

[Desmodromico]

Raced a 250 this weekend for the first time, and while I agree I could never hang with Schram and Hammer regardless of weights, everyone else in the field just left me on the straights (210# for reference). I followed Spencer a few laps and had to make up serious ground in corner entry as he pulled me everywhere else (and his bike was smoking like crazy).

If we want the class to grow I think something like this could help broaden the appeal to more people.

[Bartman]

All the arguments seem to be the same, so and so is faster than me and I have to make it up under braking or corner speed. Thing is if we had equal weight and power within a 2% or so you would only have to outride the other guy rather and make up for power to weight differences.
Really it is almost impossible to make racing truly fair. Sometimes it just comes down to who can go practice more or afford new tires so effit all lets just have fun doing it and the fast will be in the front and if you want to be one of them get faster.

[Bueller999]

I just accept that I am a fat ass and the guys in front are better riders at this point. I need to learn to make my bike go faster where I have control of it and pin it and try not to loose too much ground in the straights. If I keep it on 2 then I can beat Hammer half the time anyway. :wink:




Sorry dude I just had to go there. :lol:

[T Baggins]

If I keep it on 2 then I can beat Hammer half the time anyway. :wink:

:shock: :lol: :lol: :shock: :lol: :lol:

That's just plain-ole-funny!

[HAMMER]

You can all lick my wiener ..... A holes ...

[Clarkie]

So if Hammer is volunteering to add 30-50lbs of weight, should it go on the bike or on the rider in a backpack or something? :D

[HAMMER]

Ankle wrist and a backpak

[Clarkie]

Is having 'cankles' a dream of yours? :D

[The GECCO]

Ankle wrist and a backpak

Don't you already have an ankle monitor? Won't it get in the way? :lol:

[DOUBLE A]

Ankle wrist and a backpak

Don't you already have an ankle monitor? Won't it get in the way? :lol:

HAMMER TOLD ME THAT WAS HIS TRANSPONDER! hahah

[HAMMER]

That's so my girlfriend can track me ....


Actually I have a clean record ...... I'm a good boy .

[zx6racer]

Hey Josh!

Hope you can make it out for sure! If we do well at PPIR we'll give it every effort to run HPR in October.

That said, PPIR is a blast on the 250's as it's a small, 1.2mi course. You don't lift, at all, for turn 1-2-3... so if you can make that, you really should!

Our guys are 135 - 185 for the most part - I'm pushing 170 after my cruise... Certainly weight is a benefit, but the skinniest guy isn't winning (yet) and even my big butt had a lap record for 3 laps at PPIR.

Just got off the phone with Richard Barnett and he'd like to try to make one weekend or the other - and another of your WSMC 250 guys (Dennis Horgan) was here this weekend.

Snorkels didn't seem to be a difference maker, really, but we'll see about getting some in time for the last round so everyone is 'legal'.

OK i'm sold, I'll see ya at PPIR. It's only 1,157.2 miles or 18hrs and 52min. Piece O' Cake! Im lookin forward to a grid full of screamin 250's. I'll try and get Richard to come down too as well as get denis out there!

[Bartman]

That's so my girlfriend can track me ....


Actually I have a clean record ...... I'm a good boy .

Clean my ass you just haven't been caught yet. :twisted: