PPIR Safety Concerns?

[T Baggins]

Since it came up in the Ray Trout Update thread... I've started this thread if people want to continue that discussion.

I just want to start by pointing out that NONE of the crashes or injuries that occurred this weekend were "PPIR Specific" meaning that they could have happened anywhere; and that nothing about the layout or walls played any factor in the crashes or injuries.

Bill VanMarter highsided in PPIR T3. He just as easily could have done that at Pueblo T7. He came down on his butt/hip on the track. That is why he was injured. There were NO walls within 500' of him.

Ray Trout lost the front in PPIR T2. He just as easily could have done that at Pueblo T1 (except it's a right hander instead of left). He tumbled, AND his bike hit him. He did not even make it onto the banking, much less anywhere near the wall.

We had two crashes in PPIR T7. Neither bike made it even 1/2 way up the banking, and the riders never even made it to the banking. The wall was never a consideration in those crashes.

The MRA made changes to the configuration following Clarkie's accident which "helps" prevent rider contact with the outside wall in T1-T2. It is far from perfect, but given our resources and the track layout it's the best we been able to do so far. We've also pro-actively coned off areas where water seepage is a known problem. That way the course doesn't change throughout the day (which is a huge safety concern, imo.) If there's an opportunity for future safety improvement at PPIR, we'll jump on it.

Racing is a dangerous sport. Regardless of how "safe" the track is, the opportunity for serious injury is significant. HPR is our safest track BY FAR - and there is basically NOTHING to hit off track (not even a rock or twig...). Even so, Air Life has been out there a few times already since the track opened, and numerous racers (car and bike) have been transported to the hospital (ambulance or personal vehicle) with various injuries. Pueblo has maimed it's fair share of riders too over the years... and some have never recovered from the injuries sustained there.

Ultimately it is up to the the individual rider to determine if ANY facility meets their safety standards. We all sign the waivers (on your application, on your medical form, on the 3 page waiver in the license packet, and again at the gate) prior to even putting our helmets on.

At the risk of pissing off Sir Clarkie (who I respect greatly) I want to note that pursuing legal action against a facility or promoter (except in the case of gross negligence) can only guarantee two things:

1) Higher insurance costs (it's already astronomical...).

2) The demise of your racing organization, or sport altogether.

In any legal action, the first responsible party would be the promoter (MRA), followed then by the facility, and then whoever else may have been party to the incident or have deep pockets.

[SOCAL4LIFE!!]

Tony,

Thanks for the thread.

I have an outsiders view since I have not ran this track before . I have read your post and numerous other posts by racers. Here is my take. As Tony said racing is a dangerous sport regardless of the track and gear. Last year on the world stage two racers lost their life to freak accidents. Even though I have not been with this organization for long I have confidence in Tony, Scott, and the rest of the board. I do not believe they would let anyone run at a track that is unsafe.

That being said it sounds like some things need to change at PPIR. The fact that part of the track has to have cones to warm riders of water is a concern. I am sure many individuals will post up how great the track is and many will say how they hate it and only run there for the points.

I would like to see what the plans are like for the track and see what changes are made before we commit to them next year. I know many of us believe in Karma, bad spirits, etc. and I honestly don't know if I would want to run there as is right now even though I was planning on doing the next event there.

Just my $.02 that doesn't mean much.

Russell

[benfoxmra95]

Well said Tony!!!!

It is a dangerous sport. We are all adults, and it's our decision whether we get on the track. None of us are doing this to feed your family and pay the salaries of your employees.

Every racer out there needs to sit down with themselves and have a serious thought about the possible consequences. Self awareness is a necessary trait for a racer. If you are unsure of your ability then back off you efforts..

I love PPIR.

[T Baggins]

The fact that part of the track has to have cones to warn riders of water is a concern.

To clarify, the cones are in place to PREVENT riders from getting into the water - not to advise caution about the presence of water. The cones direct riders around and away from the water. They basically indicate the "edge of the track".

[HAMMER]

I can't wait to go back. I love ppir too. Awesome venue. Great for spectators. Fun track. The cones and layout was a blast. Hey at least were racing and have tracks to ride. If you don't like it don't come ...simple

[Snowman]

Being one of the two riders down in turn 7 I have to give it up to the corner workers. They got to me quickly even though they had to cross traffic to get to me. Stood with the bike waving off approaching rider until they could roll it off the track.

The problem I was having with turn 7 wasn't anything different than anyone else was having and since it is a slow speed corner I doubt anyone will ever be going fast enough to slide up to the wall.

I will never criticize anyones decision to ride or not to ride any track for any reason. We make the choice each time to put yourselves on that racing surface and no matter what happens, your fault, their fault or no bodies fault we are the ones who take responsibly for being there.

[peteyt328]

Just want to say that I love racing at PPIR, as do many of my friends. The track is technical and bumpy and the walls make me nervous but I always have a good time there and the races are always close. Also, the facility is great and its the best track for spectating. I'm glad we race there twice this year..

[dragos13]

I really like PPIR also. Its a fun track and like Hammer said, its great for spectators.

I had a nice front and rear tire push coming out of turn 2. It definitely puts you in check quick. Aside from the bike issues (and my issues) it was a great weekend!

[racedk6]

The only thing I dont like is the water coming up and the cones. We need the water to go away!

[Mforza]

Like Tony said " we all know the risk" and its up to everyone to decide if you want to race there or not.
If anyone thinks it's too dangerous to race motorcycle then go play golf or something :D
Personaly I think if MRA decides to race let's say in Morisson/Evergreen canyon then I will go and race there too. :D
Dangerous and risky? Yes it is but that's why we doing this! For the adrenalin rush and pushing to the limit.
If you want to be safe the watch the racing in the TV :D

[Bartman]

I remember riding at Second Creek and Mountain View and Steamboat Springs and they were all way worse then PPIR as far as safety goes. I would still raced Second Creek even after it tried to kill me and I would still go back there even now if we could, Pueblo came very close to killing my brother and we still go there and I think we still should, I guess the whole point is that we accept that going into this sport that every corner we come to may be our last and that is why normal people think we are nuts and maybe we are but I like to think we are more alive than they.

[HAMMER]

Yes sir.... :D

[jmaher]

Turn one freaked me out due to hitting a cone and going off track Friday....my fault completely. Turn 9 in Pueblo bothers me more. I really got to enjoy the infield and hope to get more practice time there. Having spent most of my track time (due to track days) at Pueblo, PPIR does not seem bumpy to me. Facilities and spectator friendliness are by far the best of the three, Pueblo to me would be second for spectator friendliness. On a side note, I'm glad the rapture has been postponed until Oct 21st. I want to enjoy my first full race season.

Joe

[vort3xr6]

I like PPIR too. My first time there and the track has a ton of character. Although feeling your front start to tuck in turn 1-2 will leave a stain really fast.

[Bueller999]

I absolutely agree with the statements of making a personal decision on whether or not to ride there.
I really don't care for the track and with that in mind I did not race there and will likely not race there next time. That is my opinion, and I have never crashed there (came close but it was a tire issue). As far as spectating it is awesome but I am racing , not watching, so HPR will work fine for me. I am not going to be hitting a wall on my 250 but I am a budget racer and I just do not care for the track enough to make that financial commitment. I will not be chasing points or I surely would have ridden it, but that $ will be spent on races at tracks I like.

[Jon]

With that being said it's my thoughts that a closer look at insurance policies for the average racer be more closely scrutinized. For instance Justin my stepson did a new racers school earlier this season. Unknown to me is the fact as he's not covered by an insurance policy at work, through his mother or anything. Should people be allowed to take part in any form of on track activity under these conditions? I know to get a license we're required but my thoughts is that we shouldn't allow any Superstreet, new riders school or anything or it's going to bite the MRA in the ass. Thoughts?

[T Baggins]

Hey Jon,

There's no requirement for people to have insurance in order to race. There's a spot for the information on the medical form if you want to list it - but no requirement.

If we required it, I'd bet that at least 30% of our racers would be "gone"...

[Fastt Racing]

Bill VanMarter didn't get injured because he landed on his butt. He got injured because he was trying to catch me, and push me into the front straight wall. Who even says something like that, lol. Also because he is almost 100 years old. I'm praying for you Bill, get well soon buddy.

Serious though. I raced PPIR for the first time on a motorcycle, and I described T2 as a little scary Sat morning. That is how I described T4, T7 at HPR and T1 at Pueblo my first time. I had a discusion with a couple friends about my perspective of assessing risk while on the track. Rather than leaving the track Sat morn after seeing the T1/T2 layout, I decided that I was not willing to push to my edge in that part of the racetrack. I was not able to accept that higher level of risk considering my skill level, finances, lack of insurance, etc. I had to manage that by giving up .5 seconds or so in those corners every lap. It made me work harder in the infield. The closest I came to crashing all weekend was T4 which is the smoothest, nicest, safest, corner on the track, hence where I was pushing the hardest. I can still die racing at 90%, but feel like the odds are acceptable (I am crazy as Bart referenced).

I have been around this safety debate since I was 5 years old. I ran Quarter Midget race cars which claimed to have the best saftey record for any youth sport. Literally better than go carts, soccer, gymnastics, football, video gaming, etc. It was extremely safe & fun. I also ran open wheel cars, and stock cars for many years which are somewhere in the middle. Now because my threshold for adrenaline is SO high, skydiving has gotten boring (ridiculous). I feel more alive than I have in years. I couldn't have made the points better, than Tony did. One of the most scary things about racing is loosing our tracks where we can enjoy this great sport of ours with all of our friends. No business investor in their right mind would ever invest in a multi million dollar gross asset that is almost completely iliquid, and has the worst return on investment out there, unless they were passionate about racing. We are blessed to have our tracks. Thanks for making me feel safe this weekend MRA staff. You are at the top of the list of racing organizations I have ever been a part of, Seriously!

[rforsythe]

Eh, PPIR is what it is. T1 is mitigated as well as it can be right now, and the majority of the rest of the track has similar injury potential to other tracks IMO. Personally I don't like Pueblo so much these days, the asphalt is shit and makes for controllability issues -- not to mention the big fucking wall ten feet off the pavement out of T10. Fortunately the airfence catches most people that venture off, but I've seen some hurt people there. Getting pelted with pieces of the track while you ride isn't super awesome either.

HPR gets life flights more than other tracks not so much because people are on the verge of death crashing there, but because it's a very long ground transport. That can complicate a serious injury (making ground transport incompatible with injuries where it might work at other tracks) and cause significant pain for someone, so occasionally going by air is just a better call.

I like racing at PPIR and will continue to do it. This is coming from a guy who has picked up more crashes than most of the people on this forum (and probably picked up most of the people on this forum). To each there own however, and I will never criticize someone for choosing to sit a weekend out because they don't wish to race at a given facility for their own reasons.

[davy4575]

two quotes come to mind. 1) from the unforgiven "We all got it comin kid" and 2) a classic proverb: "If you shit in your underwear, dont blame your underwear"

My prayers go out to those that were injured. Its a risk we all take as has been mentioned, the fact remains that our bikes dont decide to crash themselves, It usually involves rider input. There is no perfect track, there is no perfect place to chase eachother around on our bikes. We are blessed to have highly trained cornerworkers and medical staff onsite. My thanks go out to them for taking care of my friends that have needed their help, and in advance for getting me out of harms way when the time comes.

[cromer611]

If you dont feel safe to race at any givin track, then dont. just dont do it.
I blew out my knee on a supermoto, dinkin around. it cost me alot and im still suffering from it. will i ever get back on one? yes, and ill probly hurt myself somehow doing it. I have a buddy that broke his ankle stepping off a curb, does he forever avoid curbs? no... cuz thats just plain silly.
Will I come out of turn 7 WFO while bangin gears and huggin the wall so close i cant hear myself screaming like a little girl cuz its so loud? hell friggin yes i will, cuz thats whats racin is about. dancing with death and getting away with it. kinda like checking out chicks at the bar while your wife is in the ladies room.....dancing with death and getting away with it. :twisted:
the sad but true thing is, you can get way more messed up driving your car through a intersection and the 18yr old girl(15yr old girl in Tony Ross's case) looking down at her phone texting while blowing the red light is something to worry about. :roll:

cant we just go racin?

[Throttleroller277]

kinda like checking out chicks at the bar while your wife is in the ladies room.....dancing with death and getting away with it.

8)

[JWinter]

I assume most, if not all of us get Road Racing World. Every issue has a story about air fence saving someone. Yes, the crashes we had last weekend were not due to track safety. There is always room for improvement when it comes to safety.

Every time I come around T1-T2 I get some kind of head-shake coming across the tunnel. Scares the shit out of me because there is very few options at that speed with little to no runoff.

I think we should look at long term goals for more air fence especially from start finish through the T1-T2 areas (I'm sure Clarkie will agree). I know we have our own air fence deployed...But it would be nice to see PPIR make yearly investments in more air fence.

Being proactive and constructive will hopefully prevent any tragedies from happening at PPIR. The MRA mission is to provide a safe and competitive environment.

Jeff

[Desmodromico]

Turnouts looked to be ok at PPIR, I decided not to race either round there when the schedule first came out. While Tony's points are valid, the walls just add an element I am not willing to look past, as Clarkie said this is born out in the safety records of Daytona etc. Yes racing is dangerous, but we all have a limit we will push to on-track as well as on which tracks and even which corners. I am old and slow so it will likely never cost me a chance at a class championship, but I won't race PPIR again.

[polar x]

I assume most, if not all of us get Road Racing World. Every issue has a story about air fence saving someone. Yes, the crashes we had last weekend were not due to track safety. There is always room for improvement when it comes to safety.

I think we should look at long term goals for more air fence especially from start finish through the T1-T2 areas (I'm sure Clarkie will agree). I know we have our own air fence deployed...But it would be nice to see PPIR make yearly investments in more air fence.

Being proactive and constructive will hopefully prevent any tragedies from happening at PPIR. The MRA mission is to provide a safe and competitive environment.

Jeff

Jeff, you can thank Brad (foothills BMW) and his Dad for 2 of those new air fences and you can thank Gene Ebazls Parents and Joe Lagalbo for the other 2 new pieces. That added to our 4 older ones that truly needed help and replacement, but these bags are pricey. To expect PPIR to buy some and just sit on them for use at 2-3 bike events a season is not reasonable or realistic. Hay bales would be a more realistic request to them. And they would be cheaper to buy and store.

Like Tony and everyone else says...its your (not referring to you 8) Jeff) choice to show up and its your choice to ride hard or throttle it back in those exposed areas. I like PPIR and given the chance, I would race it again.

[cactusjack]

I have a buddy that broke his ankle stepping off a curb, does he forever avoid curbs? no... cuz thats just plain silly.

Damn, that's gutsy! I broke my ankle last year falling off a ladder (while working on the race trailer...a tiny shred of dignity saved?), and I haven't been on a ladder since. The ladder that bucked me off is now a twisted pile of aluminum in my garage. I went medieval on that sh!t.

Being inspired by Turpin's gutsy recovery last season, I raced on the plated but still sorta broken ankle in Pueblo. That's right, ladders scare me more than Pueblo. Not to say than T9 doesn't scare me a bit, I've tumbled there in the past.

Let's hope for quick recoveries for all injured racers, and given the similar nature of their lower body injuries, let's hope Ray returns to the track as quickly as Shane did last season!

[supermoist]

Was pretty brutal on my limbs. I'm thankful it was less so on my head, neck and back. I still feel "the track" is safer than canyon rides and way more fun. I have to agree with Bart that we live more than those who don't ride or race.

Racing is the ultimate expression of a having a lust for life and for being in control of you own choices.

I think PPIR is a facility we are fortunate to have available to us as racers. I think MRA manages the risk of each track well.

Cheers, all,
Ray