Two Questions | 250 Grids & Multiple Bike Practice

[d_mob]

Two quick questions...

First around 250 production, is anyone against taking fastest Saturday AM practice time and using for grid position and then fastest lap from the actual race Saturday to use for grid positions on Sunday (i.e. British Superbike style)? Limited/reduced practice on Sunday morning makes it a bit difficult.

Second and sorry if this is a dumb question, I've never had two bikes and am wondering, are we allowed in two different practice sessions? For example, do I get an expert slow sticker for my 250 and expert medium/fast sticker for my R6?

Thanks in advance for the discussion/answers --

[Throttleroller277]

I'll stay out of the 250 question since I am not running in it...

As for practice... You can get two different practice stickers for the two machines, but you cannot go out in both sessions back to back. You can go out in slow practice for the first set of sessions, and then fast or medium for second set of sessions. Make sense?

[dragos13]

As for the 250 question, we want the guys who only come out on Sunday to have a chance to qualify for a good start position.

[rybo]

Two quick questions...

First around 250 production, is anyone against taking fastest Saturday AM practice time and using for grid position and then fastest lap from the actual race Saturday to use for grid positions on Sunday (i.e. British Superbike style)? Limited/reduced practice on Sunday morning makes it a bit difficult.

Second and sorry if this is a dumb question, I've never had two bikes and am wondering, are we allowed in two different practice sessions? For example, do I get an expert slow sticker for my 250 and expert medium/fast sticker for my R6?

Thanks in advance for the discussion/answers --

Even though I not running it, I'll weigh in on the 250 question. One of the reasons behind making the decision the way we did was to no penalize riders in the Sunday 250 class who can't make it on Saturday. Maybe it's a mute point, I'll have to look and see if any of our riders even fall into that category.

Another was if conditions drastically changed between saturday and sunday those riders with skill at (say riding in the rain) would be able to show that through qualifying / practice and have a higher grid position.

s

* Note: Casey has his "ninja" skills turned on today!

[d_mob]

I'll stay out of the 250 question since I am not running in it...

As for practice... You can get two different practice stickers for the two machines, but you cannot go out in both sessions back to back. You can go out in slow practice for the first set of sessions, and then fast or medium for second set of sessions. Make sense?

I guess I understand what you are saying, but isn't that counterproductive to getting more of the grids filled?

What is the reasoning behind limiting practice time on multiple bikes? With this two day "qualifying practice" in the 250 prod class it is putting emphasis on that particular bike for me.

I'd personally like to run all practice sessions on both bikes, especially at a track like PPIR.

Seems unfair to have me miss a practice / qualifying session on the 250 b/c I want to get in some laps on the R6 prior to the actual race, no?

[Munch]

I agree with Dave. You're paying for extra entries which benefits the club. Couple more guys running in practice shouldn't have a negative effect overall, something to consider?

[Throttleroller277]

I understand your thinking, but... Everyone pays the same for "practice", when they pay the entry fees. So the argument is....

If you get to go out Saturday morning in say... Slow practice, medium practice... slow practice, medium practice.... Slow practice, medium practice.... " on 250 and 600

The guy on a 600 only gets..... medium practice.... medium practice..... medium practice....

So with the above example, you got twice the amount of practice, than the other guy, but paid the same price.

There are a lot of guys (myself included) that have ran 600 and 1000 machines on the same day, but don't get twice the practice. They too have to alternate, or just practice on one machine....

Make sense?

[dragos13]

To expand on what Jeff said, just because you are running two bikes doesn't always mean you are entered and paying more fees then a guy with only one bike. Some weekends on my 600, I would run 6-7 races. Some guys with two bikes only run 3-4 races so I don't see why that constitutes twice the amount of practice (this is just an example).

[d_mob]

I get all that, but since we are qualifying during practice on the 250's it seems different. Maybe a short qualifying session similar to ROR then?

If not, can I pay an add'l "practice fee" so nobody gets butt hurt about it? :)

If everything stays the way it is, I'm at a disadvantage by wanting to run two bikes by limiting my qualifying time on the fiddy.

Does anyone even care if the folks on 250's get to run practice/qualifying and then run their "normal" sessions on their other "big" bikes?

[dragos13]

Does anyone even care if the folks on 250's get to run practice/qualifying and then run their "normal" sessions on their other "big" bikes?

If they do it for 250's they'll have to do it for everyone with multiple bikes. Remember that 250 qualifying was not part of the class creation or rule change, you are simply using practice times to determine grids so it is different then ROR.


If not, can I pay an add'l "practice fee" so nobody gets butt hurt about it? :)


Register for more classes 8)

[d_mob]

Casey, you wouldn't have to "do it for everyone".

The fact that we're using practice as qualifying makes it different for the 250's.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess. Doesn't seem like anyone cares enough to put in the effort to change anything.

See everyone this w/e -

[dragos13]

Dave we would have to do it for everyone. Once we allow people with 250's to run multiple practices, then what about the guys with 600's and 1000's or a 600 and SV. The 250 is just another class same as the rest. You guys just decided to grid based on practice times instead of points. That was decided for the 250 class and doesn't entitle 250 riders to any more practice than anyone else in the club.

If you want a qualifying session for 250's seperate than practice and similar to ROR, put in the proposal at the end of the year and get it created for 2012. Anything is possible in this club it just has to remain fair to all riders and cannot cater to any specific group or class.

[T Baggins]

Casey, you wouldn't have to "do it for everyone".

The fact that we're using practice as qualifying makes it different for the 250's.

Whatever, it is what it is I guess. Doesn't seem like anyone cares enough to put in the effort to change anything.



I disagree.

First, how is using practice for qualifying any different than regular practice? Aren't you still going as fast as you can, only it actually counts for something...? I've turned my best 250 laps in "practice/qualifying" - to me that was valuable track time.

Second, It's not that people don't care enough... it's that we've been there, done that, and no matter which way we go we still can't make everyone happy.

In the past you literally had to PAY for practice. NO PAY, NO PRACTICE. Our current system is much more rider friendly, but still not perfect.

On the occasion that a rider "has" gone out and run extra practice sessions (without permission I might add) - there have been MULTIPLE people come to the raceday office and cry "this isn't fair and that isn't fair - and how come he gets to run medium AND fast, and I only get to run medium..." The only fair way to do it is each rider gets ONE session per round - otherwise everyone cries about it. :cry: :cry: :cry:

Many people enter races they don't intend to "compete in" for extra practice time - especially endurance - where lots of top riders use it for extended test and tune. Or there is a Friday practice day preceding EVERY ONE of our MRA races this year.

ROR guys get a separate practice because it is our Premier Event - AND they pay $50 extra to participate in it.

[Jon]

The way around it would be to pay for the two practice sessions. That way you would pay for the right to get twice the amount of track time and you could do slow fast, fast medium or whatever your heart desires. Most all of us have raced more than one bike and faced this dilemma before the question remains can you adapt to racing more than one bike and adjust to it during the warm up?

[T Baggins]

The way around it would be to pay for the two practice sessions. That way you would pay for the right to get twice the amount of track time and you could do slow fast, fast medium or whatever your heart desires. Most all of us have raced more than one bike and faced this dilemma before the question remains can you adapt to racing more than one bike and adjust to it during the warm up?

So do they get two tech stickers in that case?

How would we price it?

I'm not against it - just looking at logistics of how to do it.

[HAMMER]

I say 2 bikes and The balls and endurance To jump off one bike to another and run a qual and try and to practice on a fast bike compaired to a 25o or a smaller or light bike is fine. How many maybe 5 people do that. And it makes it possable to qualify for a possition in 250 and race a 600 . I mean this is a club.

[HAMMER]

And it keeps the people from swaping bikes in the middle of practice and getting mistory fast times for a qualifying session. 250 slow 600 med/fast end of story

[d_mob]

Casey, you wouldn't have to "do it for everyone".

The fact that we're using practice as qualifying makes it different for the 250's.



I disagree.

First, how is using practice for qualifying any different than regular practice? Aren't you still going as fast as you can, only it actually counts for something...? I've turned my best 250 laps in "practice/qualifying" - to me that was valuable track time.



Tony, I don't have the speed or experience you do, so no, I don't just go out in practice and "go as fast as I can". Take Saturday for example, I usually use the first session to shake off the cobwebs, warm up the bike, get comfortable with lines, track surface, suspension, etc and then come in to go over the bike thoroughly from a safety perspective to ensure that bolts aren't falling off. I use the second and third sessions to increase speed.

If things stay the way they are, then I am at a total disadvantage (as is anyone running a 250 w/ another bike). Again take Saturday as an example, I will use the first session of the day as outlined above. Then I will use the second session as my 250 qualifying session. If my times are sufficient, then I have ONE session remaining to ride my middleweight bike, which some would argue warrants much more practice/prep time. And what if something happens in the second session? I'd have to use my third for qualifying and have zero track time on the middleweight bike.

I figure we can remedy this by going with one of three options...

A) Simply put a caveat in the rulebook stating that 250 riders (and any other bike that utilizes practice for qualifying) are allowed to run practice in unison with their regularly scheduled program. <-- I'm guessing Casey will step in here with something around the lines of "we can't make any rulebook changes until year end". That being said, maybe options B or C are better...

B) Allow riders with more than one class of bike the option to pay additional for the ability to ride all practice sessions. I don't think this is fair, but if it's what is decided I'm happy to make my donation.

C) Change the way 250's are gridded. Maybe we simply make it like every other class and grid based on points? <-- This seems like the easiest to implement and most logical option.

I'm hopping on a flight now to get home and then headed to the track. Maybe we can discuss this in person this evening track side or tomorrow morning following the riders meeting. Then again, I don't want to cut into my precious and rare practice time! :)