2-Fiddy 4-Hour Endurance

[d_mob]

For those of you that didn't attend the meeting last night, the topic of separating the turd-fiddys during the 4-hour endurance race was brought up.

Not "separate" into a separate race, but score/time separately so the craptastic bikes and riders would have a chance to actually get a trophy.

So, is anyone opposed to this? Would you mind having a slow(er) bike in front of you lap after lap for four hours?

If not, what are the complications that would thwart this idea? Does it require excessive additional effort to score/time? What are the costs associated with a trophy?

Speaking of a trophy, maybe we can make something funny as opposed to the typical crystal piece (I'm thinking gaudy, huge, mantlepiece w/ unicorns and half-naked dragon-slaying chick riding a 250).

Thoughts?

PS... I'm thinking do it exactly the same as the regular endurance race (e.g. either teams or individual).

PSS... If I can have creative rights over the trophy, I'll be happy to sponsor the race. :shock:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2776/4189102882_a0bf546e42.jpg

[cromer611]

hell yeah!
unicorns!? chicks?!
sounds like pure awesome!

[Bartman]

To be honest I like the idea of the 250s having their own class, but the thought of the closing speeds between them and big bikes scares the crap out of me and when you take into account fatigue of 4 hours as well I don't know. It is bad enough in a 30 min endurance with lightweight and middleweight but with everybody it scares the hell out of me.

[d_mob]

Bart, while I don't want to get cornholed by a "big" bike (or any bike for that matter), I'm not sure if that reasoning should cause us to forfeit the idea. If that was the case two-fiddys shouldn't be allowed in U and O classes.

In fact, I would imagine people battling in an AM-U sprint race would be quicker to cause an issue as getting around lappers quickly is key in a 7-lap race.

I could be wrong though -

[Munch]

Anyone have an idea of the laptimes on some of the 250s during the mock races in 2010?

[vort3xr6]

Anyone have an idea of the laptimes on some of the 250s during the mock races in 2010?

4 hours.







ba dum chhhhhhh.

[d_mob]

2:14's if I'm not mistaken -

[The GECCO]

Bart, while I don't want to get cornholed by a "big" bike (or any bike for that matter), I'm not sure if that reasoning should cause us to forfeit the idea. If that was the case two-fiddys shouldn't be allowed in U and O classes.

In fact, I would imagine people battling in an AM-U sprint race would be quicker to cause an issue as getting around lappers quickly is key in a 7-lap race.

I could be wrong though -

I dunno, I can see both sides of this argument. Let's assume the 250 is 30 seconds off the pace, they're only gonna get lapped once in a 7 lap race (probably on lap 4, at least by the leaders). Yes, it will be frantic to get around them, but it's still just once. Let's say you have a 25 bike AGTU field with one of them being a 250, assuming everyone laps the 250 that's a total of 24 passes.

In an endurance race you're going to lap that same bike every 8 minutes or so. In the course of a 4 hour race that same field would have to negotiate over 900 passes...eventually the laws of large numbers will catch up to you and someone is gonna get run over.

I'm not saying that this is a reason to exclude the 250's because I'm pretty much a "deal with it, Sally" kinda guy when it comes to racers bitching about traffic, lappers, etc. But I am saying that we can't reasonably expect that there won't be an incident.

Just my thoughts...worth exactly what you paid to hear them.

[jmaher]

Is there any reason the 250's could not have run in the event prior to this discussion? If not, them running in the event is not the issue but rather scoring them seperately.

Joe

[Desmodromico]

I know some of those who raced the 4 hour last year had lap times much slower than 2:14's, so closing speed was already an issue. Unless we are going to do a cutoff for lap times to be eligible for the race 250's could run it, so the question is do we award a separate winner...

[Bartman]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.

[Jon]

I don't know but I when I was younger I used to love endurance racing and have been in numerous longer ones such as eight, five, four, three two and even the epic and world renowned MRA 30 minute one.
As I've gotten older though, passing much much slower traffic has become a hassle to the point of danger, and that's just in Boulder! Then once you add a purse, contingency and a big ole gaudy trophy I personally am going to have to throw all that crap out the window and just try and run as many of them over as possible.
Truthfully though, do I think it's going to be like LA on a Friday at 5, well yes but hopefully there won't be cars trying to split lanes. I'm going to get me a big ole bag a popcorn and a good place to watch as the bikes come over a crest a blind spot. Should probably hand out some bulls-eyes too. Should be a great event!

[Throttleroller277]

Bart, while I don't want to get cornholed by a "big" bike (or any bike for that matter), I'm not sure if that reasoning should cause us to forfeit the idea. If that was the case two-fiddys shouldn't be allowed in U and O classes.

In fact, I would imagine people battling in an AM-U sprint race would be quicker to cause an issue as getting around lappers quickly is key in a 7-lap race.

I could be wrong though -

I dunno, I can see both sides of this argument. Let's assume the 250 is 30 seconds off the pace, they're only gonna get lapped once in a 7 lap race (probably on lap 4, at least by the leaders). Yes, it will be frantic to get around them, but it's still just once. Let's say you have a 25 bike AGTU field with one of them being a 250, assuming everyone laps the 250 that's a total of 24 passes.

In an endurance race you're going to lap that same bike every 8 minutes or so. In the course of a 4 hour race that same field would have to negotiate over 900 passes...eventually the laws of large numbers will catch up to you and someone is gonna get run over.

I'm not saying that this is a reason to exclude the 250's because I'm pretty much a "deal with it, Sally" kinda guy when it comes to racers bitching about traffic, lappers, etc. But I am saying that we can't reasonably expect that there won't be an incident.

Just my thoughts...worth exactly what you paid to hear them.

I was thinking pretty much in the same lines as Glenn here, on this matter...

[Throttleroller277]

I know some of those who raced the 4 hour last year had lap times much slower than 2:14's, so closing speed was already an issue. Unless we are going to do a cutoff for lap times to be eligible for the race 250's could run it, so the question is do we award a separate winner...

Where the said people with times greater than 2:14's on the track for then entire 4 hr though? In this case the 250's would be..... and upwards of 10 of them...

just throwing that out there...

[Bueller999]

After running Sat practice last year on a totally stock 250, including bias ply tires (pretty sure I was the slowest ninjette), I am not sure I want to be out there getting my paint sucked off for 30 min. up against the middle weights let alone for 4 hours. But that is just me :oops:

I have been contemplating LW endurance just not sure yet. I guess I'll see how it plays out.

[d_mob]

Check out this video, which is completely counterproductive to my argument as it really shows the pace / closing speeds between the bikes...

@ 1:53 - 1:59 you can see Pedrosa (*ahem* - I mean John Kuo) getting passed between turns 1 & 2

@ 2:22 - 2:25 you can see two turd-fiddys going down the straight (Hammer and Schram I think?)

@ 3:05 - 3:07 Pedkuo shows up again (if only for a brief second) on the outside of the straight :lol:

However, the absolute money shot is 6:55 - 6:59 where you can see the approach speed on Hammer and Schram as they battle it out side-by-side on the last lap!

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMobDeep#p/a/u/1/v2v2F2qhxWk

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/182648_10150151827973169_542298168_7970509_1392169 _n.jpg

[talladega]

being a 2:15ish (generous) guy myself on the Thruxton/Aprilia125 I understand the concerns. it will be interesting to see outcome of this discussion.

i think it is fabulous that we have so much interest in the 250s. this will surely be exciting to watch/race, and will be great for spectatorship. I AM A FAN. In the end it will continue to draw more 250 and other newer/younger/slower/small displacement riders to the club as did the superstreet classes.

if the aim is to get NEW riders to club, then I think this is a waste of time to have "special" concessions continually being requested by our expert racers who now want more "massaging" in existing classes/clubs.

If the aim is simply to make a biga$$ (ninja-only spec) class, then we should think about creating special (and exclusive) arrangements to support these requests, as long as the current slower/smaller displacement riders and their bikes are not excluded or taken away from.

How many Ninjas 250's have COMMITTED TO RACE THIS YEAR (have bike and plan in progress already)?

I will also be willing to bet that while the lap time will continue to get faster throughout the season, that hammer/Schram will surely be among the fastest examples- with the other end of the speed spectrum potentially 15+ sec slower.

So let's say 15 mini moto racers and their bikes show up and request to create a new race for them as they have done for us (250 guys) in their club? Wouldn't this upset the masses?

Make a spec class if we have enough demand, and don't limit 250s to existing races. It sounds like the only interest is for special timing anyway- other than pushback from everyone else. If a 250 guy wants to run 4-hour race with his buddies, it can be arranged in many ways unofficially. Maybe add a saturday endurance race to PPIR which is far better suited for those bikes.

[Bartman]

And you were on a 600njy, imagine how fast a 1k is going and lets face it those were the 2 fastest guys out there on 250dys.

[d_mob]

Yeah, I guess we just need to wait for the ruling on whether or not the 2-fiddys are allowed in endurance.

Assuming they ARE allowed in, worst case as Tally mentioned above we could do a separate "off the books" / unofficial 250 trophy for the endurance race.

This would give me the opportunity to create my dragon-slayer, three-titted chick on a ninja 250 trophy! :lol:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_szdFCJqarXU/SISZ-fjeJgI/AAAAAAAAAz4/hn46356rA_Y/s400/funny+trophy.jpg

http://www.yourfunnystuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Worst-Trophy-Ever.jpg

http://i4.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/5e/d4/a0_10.JPG

[Throttleroller277]

i think it is fabulous that we have so much interest in the 250s. this will surely be exciting to watch/race, and will be great for spectatorship. I AM A FAN. In the end it will continue to draw more 250 and other newer/younger/slower/small displacement riders to the club as did the superstreet classes.

if the aim is to get NEW riders to club, then I think this is a waste of time to have "special" concessions continually being requested by our expert racers who now want more "massaging" in existing classes/clubs.

If the aim is simply to make a biga$$ (ninja-only spec) class, then we should think about creating special (and exclusive) arrangements to support these requests, as long as the current slower/smaller displacement riders and their bikes are not excluded or taken away from.

How many Ninjas 250's have COMMITTED TO RACE THIS YEAR (have bike and plan in progress already)?


So let's say 15 mini moto racers and their bikes show up and request to create a new race for them as they have done for us (250 guys) in their club? Wouldn't this upset the masses?

Make a spec class if we have enough demand, and don't limit 250s to existing races. It sounds like the only interest is for special timing anyway- other than pushback from everyone else. If a 250 guy wants to run 4-hour race with his buddies, it can be arranged in many ways unofficially. Maybe add a saturday endurance race to PPIR which is far better suited for those bikes.

I think I am missing something in your post Tally....

We did create (2) 250 only spec classes already...

If we did a separate endurance race at PPIR for the 250"s... why just at PPIR?....

[talladega]

@Jeff- i apologize my wording was not clear. by seperate classes you mean timing. However, it seems as if the arguement is being on the track with bigger/faster bikes (same race, diff times). sorry to confuse....just feeding frenzy.

Some of us have NO interest in getting on big bikes in big classes. For us, we don't mind being lapped/passed. However, we do like to go run races. I would hate to see us be 'removed", however- POWER IN NUMBERS!

@DMob- For sponsorship/trophy costs you could theoretically rent various small tracks for EXCLUSIVE ninja races all day. Jus sayin...

Gonna be fun year.

[peteyt328]

On a side note, unless some serious schedule changes are made that wknd I'm gonna guess the 4 hr will become more like a 2.5-3 hr endurance like it did last year. Not that there is anything wrong with that because I still couldn't walk for a few days after doing that solo.

Anywho, I agree with scoring 250's separately.. And last years endurance race was without any issues so I am not opposed to one race with all sized bikes.

[Throttleroller277]

Tally- I see your point now.

Pete- last year's 4 hr was reduced in time due to delays that we had throughout the day, prior to the race...

[TRK]

Does everyone still get a blue ribbon, or are we racing for anything this year?

[cromer611]

that is one awesome golf trophy!

[findgold]

This post is getting a little old and I didn't read everything, none of you know me etc. but I would like to add my 2 cents worth..

first I started racing before many of todays racers were born...
second I just may have more hours of endurance roadracing motorcycles then many of todays riders have laps...I have been in 2,4,6,8,12, and 24hr races..

The 250's should be allowed to race and scored in their own class..
as are the bigger bikes scored in their own classes..

stright a way speeds of the little bikes are slow..IE. make passing very easy for faster bikes.. and in most corners they can hold their own...

I have raced my Ninjette down at Arroyo Seco and so far I have the only 250 their in lightweight I am up against sv650's other classes I race in I am against everything else that races their. I get lapped by almost all the bikes in most of the races.. NO PROBLEM SO FAR..

I can hardly wait to race with you guys in your 250 class this May..

[The GECCO]

stright a way speeds of the little bikes are slow..IE. make passing very easy for faster bikes.. and in most corners they can hold their own...

I have raced my Ninjette down at Arroyo Seco and so far I have the only 250 their in lightweight I am up against sv650's other classes I race in I am against everything else that races their. I get lapped by almost all the bikes in most of the races.. NO PROBLEM SO FAR..

All due respect, your comparison is not apples to apples. As you point out, the straightaway speeds are what counts, and the longest straight at Arroyo Seco is 35% shorter than the one at HPR, and the straight at Arroyo Seco is preceded by a tighter radius turn. This will have a drastic effect on the closing speeds.

On my SS legal R1 I've been clocked at 161 on radar at HPR, I know some of the SB spec bikes are going at least 5mph faster. The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane. This is the equivalent of driving through a parking lot at 70-75mph. I submit that the closing speeds at Arroyo Seco are much less.

The 4 hour race is the only time the 250's would be up against a 1000, either SS or SB spec. They would not often be up against 600's, which are only 10-15 mph slower. You say the high closing speeds make passing "very easy" for bigger bikes, but it's also what makes any collision between the two potentially disastrous.

[JimWilson29]

The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane.


http://smiliesftw.com/x/lolhit.gif

[hcr25]

And i mean with all due respect :) Our 4hr race had 60 some racers on the track at the same time. When i raced Arroyo Seco a couple of years ago i dont remember the biggest grid being over 15 riders, maybe this has changed. The main problem i saw last year beyond the closing speed on the 250's was some of the guys were not holding their lines and some were not even on the traditional race line. I would guess the cause of this was for some it was the first weekend ever on the lil bike. If the 250's are out there we will get around them. Some might have less paint though :)
Mike

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Will the "drop it out of a plane" thing be legal in the 250 cup races , or just the endurance races?

[Bueller999]

Hey Mike remember if you suck the vinyl wrap off of Tony's bike the static cling will attach it to your bike and add a bit more drag. :lol:

[findgold]

And i mean with all due respect :) Our 4hr race had 60 some racers on the track at the same time. When i raced Arroyo Seco a couple of years ago i dont remember the biggest grid being over 15 riders, maybe this has changed. The main problem i saw last year beyond the closing speed on the 250's was some of the guys were not holding their lines and some were not even on the traditional race line. I would guess the cause of this was for some it was the first weekend ever on the lil bike. If the 250's are out there we will get around them. Some might have less paint though :)
Mike

And I have been in races that had 3 waves of 60 bikes..(Pocono- Road Atlanta tho very long tracks) and true small grids at A.S. But A.S. is a short tight track.

And I can't tell you how many times someone has passed me on my Ninjette on the straight or stuffed me at the end of straight just to become a portable road block thru the turns till the next straight...So 250 riders aren't the only ones that have no idea as to good race lines..

If you are an expert club racer you should not have any trouble passing a slower rider/bike almost anywhere on the track. AND DO IT IN A SAFE MANNER

But get a good rider on a 250 and the only place you will be able to pass is on the straights..or in some of the lesser turns where you can HP past..don't ya know; :twisted:

[oldtimer]

Does everyone still get a blue ribbon, or are we racing for anything this year?


I *heart* you Shannon

[findgold]

The only way a Ninja 250 will top 90 is if you drop it out of a plane.


http://smiliesftw.com/x/lolhit.gif

Are you guys telling me that the MRA Ninjettes won't top out over 90 on a longer straight at HPR

How many feet above sea level is HPR?

Can hardly wait to race with you guys/gals this year. :mrgreen:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

This is the equivalent of driving through a parking lot at 70-75mph.
That's a perfect analogy, with the exception that the cars in the parking lot are not moving around as come up on them.

[polar x]

Why dont we all just get OBAMA involved and let him solve this "perceived" safety issue :roll: :roll: He did a great job with Health care.

Seriously, I have come on up on some of our lesser experienced riders in Endurance and have shaved (as have a lot of you) the paint several times. Seriously, WHO FREAKING CARES :evil: Why is this even a issue. IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??

To keep them out of the END races is elitist, and just plain ignorant. And its being done to a group that this club is cultivating (thanks Tony) to start a future for new riders and cheaper racing.

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:

Well, heck, let's just cut to the chase.

NAZI! http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/argue.gif HITLER!


There, we're done.


(for an explanation, see Wikipedia - Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law))

[rybo]

Why dont we all just get OBAMA involved and let him solve this "perceived" safety issue :roll: :roll: He did a great job with Health care.

Seriously, I have come on up some of our lesser experienced riders in Endurance and have shaved (as have a lot of you) the paint several times. Seriously, WHO FREAKING CARES :evil: Why is this even a issue. IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??

To keep them out of the END races is elitist, and just plain ignorant. And its being done to a group that this club is cultivating (thanks Tony) to start a future for new riders and cheaper racing.

FLAME ON if you want. :!: :!:


JEEEZ Chris,

You've been a member of the MRA for 7 years. Don't you know that making sense on the forums is like beating your head against a wall? ](*,)

I think it's been said before, and I agree with it, there were plenty of slower riders on the course during last years race. In 3 hours we had exactly one bike fall down, zero collisions and at no time when I was on the track did I feel that the speed differential between riders made the event unsafe.

I respectfully disagree that putting the bikes out there creates a hazard that is analogous to riding a motorcycle 70 MPH through a parking lot. The racetrack is a "one way" environment and everyone out there knows which way that is. The parking lot is the furthest thing from a one way environment and people's actions in parking lots is highly unpredictable.

Historically the rule has been "hold your line, it's the faster riders job to execute a safe pass". Why shouldn't that be the same for this event? During my time in this race last year I passed considerably slower riders in every section of the track often with great closing speed. I found that so long as I was doing my job and staying aware executing a safe pass was easier the slower the other bike was going. I hope the same was true for other riders passing me, because there were some seriously fast guys out there who didn't seem to have any problem finding their way around me.

This is club racing. I believe that we will always have the problem of closing speeds regardless of the bikes we choose to put on the track The issue here is less about the bike and more about the rider driving it.

One more thing, I had the GPS on my ninja at a couple of the last trackdays and I can confirm that they exceed 90 MPH on the straight at HPR. My max was 97 according to the GPS, which I'm pretty sure is accurate. Perhaps there was a bit of a tailwind, I can't say that I honestly remember.

S

[Bueller999]

IF you are that damned concerned over it, then cover it in the RIDERS MEETING and let them know where you want them on the straight away...isn't that what its for??


This is what I was thinking also, as this will also be something that will present itself in practice to a somewhat lesser degree, but still a 600 on any of the longer straights will still generate a higher than usual closing speed.
If there is a preferred line that would facilitate an easier pass I would be all for it. If we can get everyone on the same page it would probably be beneficial.
When I was practicing I was surrendering the outside race line on the back staight and between 6 & 7 to the faster traffic, so there was an easy way around me on both sides, without sudden unpredictable changes and I was close enough to the line that entering the turn did not throw me off.

[polar x]

(for an explanation, see Wikipedia - Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law))

I like that :P :P :P There needs to be a OBAMA rule. 8) 8) 8) Once invoked the validity of ones argument is null and void or considered so superior as to invalidate all remarks to defend said position. :wink: :wink:

Thank Jim :idea: :idea:


Bueller is right, though I agree with Scott, if the ninja's hold there lines then the whole passing experience becomes mute...you as the passer are responsible for passing safely. This will work just as it works now with slower bikes and slower riders. You guys (\00\) are truly making a mountain out of a mole hill. If we are wrong \:D/ then let the carnage prove your point in the short endurance races we already have. It will show up there first. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[rforsythe]

As one of the slower riders getting routinely passed during the endurance marathon, I will attest that the guys (and gals) on the fast bikes did a fantastic job executing safe passes and riding overall. HPR is a big ass track with lots of room, and come on - it's a four hour race give or take, so even if you can't safely pass someone in that corner you can easily get around them later. Letting the racer in front gain a tiny advantage while you get stuck in traffic just doesn't mean much in a long race with pit stops, and everyone seemed to play nicely.

Given the extraordinary quality of riding and mutual courtesy shown among riders at the last one, I'd have no issue putting the ninjette's out there in the mix as well.

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

I like that :P :P :P <snip> Thank Jim :idea: :idea:
I thought you might like that, Cooner. I think I'm getting to know you pretty well after all these years.

I respectfully disagree that putting the bikes out there creates a hazard that is analogous to riding a motorcycle 70 MPH through a parking lot. The racetrack is a "one way" environment and everyone out there knows which way that is. The parking lot is the furthest thing from a one way environment and people's actions in parking lots is highly unpredictable.
I took what Glenn meant is a parking lot where the cars are parked - meaning stationary. That's why I thought it was a good one.

Perhaps a more accurate analogy (for those of us who've lived & commuted in CA) is lane splitting at 70mph. That's a one way environment as well with very clear rules about lane changing.

Before I say the next statement, I totally support the having the 250's in the 4-hour. That said, I can't remember how many times we agonized over combining sprint classes in order to avoid closing speed differentials. I would think the same concerns we had then apply.

About scoring them separately - I'm a little torn. Based on personal experience, when club officials are personally invested in something there's a razor thin line between support and pandering.

[findgold]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.
If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

[The GECCO]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.
If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

[random hero]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.
If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

Yeah... S**t talking the tech guy probably isn't the best idea :)

[Clarkie]

Club racing RULES! :lol:

[d_mob]

Well, after all that I don't feel like we've come to any conclusions... :?

I guess the bottom line, according to the current rules, is that the 2-fiddys can't be ruled out or excluded from the endurance race.

I guess the question now is, who (with a 2-fiddy) is interested in participating? I'm 100% in (as a solo rider) if there is a separate scoring system. If not, there is really no reason for me to join.

Scott, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you mention the possibility of separate scoring if there are 10 or more bikes?

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

PS... Do we really need "separate" scoring/timing? Won't there be a list of all riders at the end showing number of laps per transponder/bike? Couldn't we just isolate the 2-fiddys and award accordingly?

PSS... How in the world did Obama come up in this thread? :roll:

[The GECCO]

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

NO!

Instruct slower traffic to simply stay on the racing line, wherever it may be (right/left). Tell them DO NOT, under any circumstances, attempt to "get out of the way". The key here is predictability. If the overtaking rider can predict where the slower bike will go, he can pass safely.

Few things scare me more than having a slower rider look back and see me coming because suddenly I have to wonder what he's going to to. If he does the correct thing (essentially nothing) I can get around him just fine, it's when he decides to "get out of the way" that things get sketchy.

[The GECCO]

Club racing RULES! :lol:

Be quiet Aaron!

DON'T MAKE ME STOP THIS CAR!!!! :shock:

[findgold]

Yes there were big bikes slower than 2:14s in the 4 hour but they still had good speed down the straight for the most part and you only had to worry about the slower riders in the corners where speeds are slower anyway, most of us don't expect to come out of the kink on to the front straight and find a rolling chicane sitting there.
I was scared out of my gourd on the front straight on the 250s and that was only a half hour.
If you can't handle the heat---perhaps you should stay out of the kitchen! :-({|=

Damn, dude, for someone who is brand new and has no idea to whom he is addressing his remarks, you've got some balls.

And, no, that wasn't a compliment....

Yeah... S**t talking the tech guy probably isn't the best idea :)

I don't care who or what bartman is or does.. What I say here is how I feel about his remarks here..

And I may be new to you guys But I am not new to roadracing Mototcycles tho I haven't been around for a few years I did race a few seasons with MRA back in the mid-late 80's But not many are around that would know/remember..

I find it a shame that some of you are so thin skinned that my remarkds here offend
and a few of you seem to me to be biased against small displacement and slower bikes on the track..

As I have mentioned before I AM a veteran of many endurance races..
as long as the 24hr of Nelson Ledges of Ohio.. Have any of you EVER done any night time road racing? You should try it sometime...

And maybe something needs to change if everyone is in such fear of offending the tech guy! ](*,)

[dave.gallant]

Oh, now this is getting good.

(subscribing)

[d_mob]

On a side note, I do think we should urge slower traffic to "keep right" on the straightaway (all of them). That goes for this (endurance), practice and all sprint races. Seems logical to me...

NO!

Instruct slower traffic to simply stay on the racing line, wherever it may be (right/left). Tell them DO NOT, under any circumstances, attempt to "get out of the way". The key here is predictability. If the overtaking rider can predict where the slower bike will go, he can pass safely.

Few things scare me more than having a slower rider look back and see me coming because suddenly I have to wonder what he's going to to. If he does the correct thing (essentially nothing) I can get around him just fine, it's when he decides to "get out of the way" that things get sketchy.

I was saying that we should recommend the "keep right" thing in addition to the typical "keep your line at all times" unwritten rule.

However, I guess you are right ... Disregard that recommendation.

There have been times that I've taken a wider line in turn 3 making it easier to shoot out and take a slower rider on the right down the straight, which would cause an issue if we forced them that direction.

Disregard.................. Sorry ---

[The GECCO]

Findgold, my comment had nothing to do with Bart being the tech inspector. Just simply that you're not the only person in the world who has a few years of racing under his belt :roll:

[Jim 'smooth' Brewer]

Oh, now this is getting good.
(subscribing)
Me too .. http://users.frii.com/jjb/emote/popcorn.gif

BTW, this month I've been roadracing for 22 consecutive years. (maybe one day I'll catch up to Ricky & Otis)

[hcr25]

I find it a shame that some of you are so thin skinned that my remarkds here offend
and a few of you seem to me to be biased against small displacement and slower bikes on the track.

And maybe something needs to change if everyone is in such fear of offending the tech guy! ](*,)[/quote]



Im not biased against small bikes at all. In fact i really like them. Want me to show you how fast yours could go??
Also not afraid of the tech, he also rides a 250 :)
Not as fun as the WERA boards but ours is good sometimes :lol:

[Jon]

On the subject of slower traffic staying right/left or whatever. After racing for like ever. I've got to say that those few occasions where the slower traffic actually tried to get out of the way have been the scariest occasions of my short 21 year career.
Just try and hold your line and though it's maybe just an interpretation of what the real line is, at least faster riders can make a good educated guess as to where your going to go next....most of the time anyhow. :lol:

[HAMMER]

:P :oops: ill race ... I'm not worried bout gettin corn hole'd .. ill out brake 7/10 "big" bikes in turn 4 at Hpr and turn 1 pueblo after I draft them at 100 mph .. not to worried ... they wil be watching out for me in the twisties ..... 8)

[benfoxmra95]

Big bikes racing against little bikes <----not a fan of it.

I seem to recall a class ror class champion having a crash with a little bike because of amazing closing speeds at Ppir one year.

Luckily no one was seriously injured.

Once a big bike is pointed on a trajectory and is at speed it's incredibly hard to change it's direction quickly. So when a small bike is darting around from one side to the other in the entrance of a corner it poses a problem I prefer to never have to deal with. And is one more variable that does not need to be added to the equation.

My opinion:

Sometimes segregation is a good thing, and there's a reason for SEPARATE classes for bikes and levels of experience.

Sadly the shrinking members of the club dictate we shovel them all together but there has to be some lines drawn between such large gaps in performance somewhere...

I doubt you'll find any top 10 ror gto riders who'll disagree with me on this. If there are I'd like to here their LOGICAL reasons for allowing small bikes to race at the same time as big bikes and why it does not pose a safety issue.

[polar x]

Big bikes racing against little bikes <----not a fan of it.

I seem to recall a class ror class champion having a crash with a little bike because of amazing closing speeds at Ppir one year.

Luckily no one was seriously injured.

Once a big bike is pointed on a trajectory and is at speed it's incredibly hard to change it's direction quickly. So when a small bike is darting around from one side to the other in the entrance of a corner it poses a problem I prefer to never have to deal with. And is one more variable that does not need to be added to the equation.

My opinion:

Sometimes segregation is a good thing, and there's a reason for SEPARATE classes for bikes and levels of experience.

Sadly the shrinking members of the club dictate we shovel them all together but there has to be some lines drawn between such large gaps in performance somewhere...

I doubt you'll find any top 10 ror gto riders who'll disagree with me on this. If there are I'd like to here their LOGICAL reasons for allowing small bikes to race at the same time as big bikes and why it does not pose a safety issue.

Well Ben, since you and I have held Top 10 a couple times in ROR and you asked for one that disagrees with you and (now a stretch ) LOGICAL reasons for that....Here I am and here I go.

As long as the bikes ALL BIKES stay on the race line(S) there is very little to be conserned with. How many times have you and I come up on a bike bike who parked it on the entrance of a corner :shock: it really should not matter the displacement of the bike, but the ability of the rider to do what we all think he will do.

The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly. When it comes to the corners, the good guys will be holding there own or now kicking our a$$ in the corner. And Hammer is right, he will out brake a large majority of the bikes out there. There are always slow people on slow and fast bikes, size really should not matter lol . ROR, RORU all of them have riders that are slower than the top dogs and pose a threat when they do something unexpected. Hold the line and stay the course and we all can get around each other safely. Now how much your ego can take when Hammer takes the inside line on the big bikes in the infield is open for discussion. :wink: But seriously, all this over something that already exist,and has existed for years, with others in this club regardless of bike size :roll: sounds like we are just looking for pre-race drama in my opinion. But I do agree that the big bikes are hard to change direction when we are on the throttle, and perhaps the only place that will be an issue is coming off the corner on the straight of ABC track. But that problem exist with the SV, 600 and 250s so again, its not that big of a deal if you set them up and they hold the line. Logical ???

And EVERYONE has the right to voice their opinion and fear no retribution. GOD knows I have pissed off MORE than my fair share of people in this group and this forum... :twisted: And never once has it affected me and I am still friends with most of them. But that Bart guy...god what a douche. :twisted:

[hcr25]

Chris, I agree with you for the most part but this is actually the problem
""The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly"" This is only somewhat true in my opinion.

Here is a example of what I think could be a bad thing. What happens when a newer less experienced rider on a 1000cc bike is going down the back straight at say 160mph. In front of him he is a lil ninjet 250 doing 90mph. The 1000cc rider pulls out from behind the 250 to pass him and at the same time the 250 does the same to pass the 250 he was drafting down the straight. Now there are two bikes in front of the big bike going 70mph faster. What does the big bike rider do now? Even the most skilled racers make mistakes.

We are club racers not professionals. For some of us last year the 4hr race was the only race they did all year in 2010. Even pro riders make mistakes. Look what happened in the 200 at the end and they were going the same speed.
Either way I will race the 4hr again, I like passing people :wink:

[T Baggins]

About scoring them separately - I'm a little torn. Based on personal experience, when club officials are personally invested in something there's a razor thin line between support and pandering.

I'm confused by this comment. First, I don't believe there is anything sexual in nature relative to this discussion or the prospect of scoring the bikes separately:

pan·der (pndr)
intr.v. pan·dered, pan·der·ing, pan·ders
1. To act as a go-between or liaison in sexual intrigues; function as a procurer.

and nor do I believe that there are any panderers participating in the discussion (since Doohwayne is not racing, and wouldn't ride a 250 anyway...) :

n also 'panderer
1. a person who caters for vulgar desires, esp in order to make money
2. a person who procures a sexual partner for another; pimp

Who of the Board Members currently own a 250 and are engaged in this discussion? DMob was the one who started the thread about scoring them separately iirc.

Rybo sold his, I'm the only board member who has one at this point, and I've made no decisions on riding it in the 4 hour anyway. That's an awfully long time to ride a bike. More track time than I get in a year of racing in fact... :wink:

[polar x]

Chris, I agree with you for the most part but this is actually the problem
""The real difference for the 250s is the straight away speeds. On a big bike you should be able to go around them safely and quickly"" This is only somewhat true in my opinion.

Here is a example of what I think could be a bad thing. What happens when a newer less experienced rider on a 1000cc bike is going down the back straight at say 160mph. In front of him he is a lil ninjet 250 doing 90mph. The 1000cc rider pulls out from behind the 250 to pass him and at the same time the 250 does the same to pass the 250 he was drafting down the straight. Now there are two bikes in front of the big bike going 70mph faster. What does the big bike rider do now? Even the most skilled racers make mistakes.

We are club racers not professionals. For some of us last year the 4hr race was the only race they did all year in 2010. Even pro riders make mistakes. Look what happened in the 200 at the end and they were going the same speed.
Either way I will race the 4hr again, I like passing people :wink:


I think you sorta covered your own reason why they should be allowed. Shit happens, we all know it and accept it. We all make mistakes and all levels do it. The faster we are the BIGGER the cost of said mistake. But I keep going back to what everyone else says...HOLD YOUR LINE and let the party passing be responsible for making a safe pass on a rider that hopefully holds his/her line. Regardless of what bike they are on. But hey, we all make mistakes... OH and I like passing people too so I will be in it if I have it off from work. 8) 8)

[dave.gallant]

This discussion is now officially boring.

Can we go back to telling Glenn he doesn't know shit?

Or how about telling Bart he needs to buy some more 1/2" sockets and skip that metric crap.

And damn it Ben, no one invited your German-Cup-Series-4wheel-Apple-Laptop-Carrying self to this discussion.





(was that good enough to send the thread back to the gutter? :shock:)

[nobasin]

i feel inclined to chime in (but this is going to be a bit long...sorry) only because as a fairly inexperienced racer (just 2 full seasons) of middle of the pack speed, i think i represent a large segment of this club that sits in the middle between the super fast and highly experienced and the slow and inexperienced (or slow and experienced in the protagonist of this story's case).

what i think is the biggest issue here is ultimately grid size from my persepctive, and maybe less so, but certainly related to it, the disparity in bike speeds. here's a shot of the start of last years 4 hour. (to the photographer from who's site i took this screenshot last year, i don't remember who you are, so i apologize for using this without permission...PM me and i'll give you credit of course).
http://gravityplanet.com/images/race8_mwend_grid.jpg


for most of us, and even the experienced riders, that was a big fucking grid out there last year. until there was some separation and attrition, i think everybody had a hairy moment or two out there trying to get through some crazy mixed traffic jams early on. i kind of look at the track like the nucleus of an atom...and the motorcycles are the protons and neutrons circling around that nucleus on their fairly predictable trajectories. but at some point, the more protons and neutrons circling, the chances of collisions go up, because even though we can usually predict where those particles are going to be, they sometimes behave in unpredictable ways. at some point, all systems reach a critical mass with shit like this and i guess the question is how many more bikes (to an already 60+ grid) can you add to the HPR atom before you pretty much guarantee there's going to be collisions? it happens at the subatomic quantum level, at the level at which we exist, and at the level of stars and galaxies...shit collides when there is a lot of it crammed into space and it is moving at varying speeds.

so i don't know what that critical grid number is, but assuming pretty close to the same amount of people want to do it this year, and we have a handful or more of new ninjettes, and a few visitors because the word is out that this is a great track and a great race and all of the clubs PR efforts bring a whole lot of new interest, and blah blah blah...70 bikes? 80 bikes?

when you have some of the fastest people and most experienced people in this club raising concerns and making relevant comments about safety issues, i think that is probably an issue worth discussing and exploring as respectfully as the forums allow, until it inevitably degenerates (or evolves, depending on your perspective) into either some people making fools of themselves, getting smacked down, or posting up some of the funnier shit i've read in any forum.

I would hope that the board will use their wisdom and the collective wisdom of the many experienced riders in the club to figure out a way to keep this particular highly unique (for our club at least) race, safe. (not suggesting that it wasn't safe last year, just saying that rider safety should always be the #1 priority with variables that we CAN control). if that means limiting the grid to N# of bikes, then maybe that's one possible solution.

But i suppose in the end we all have the choice to race in it or not. I totally agree that we all accept the risks of this sport and that shit does indeed happen, even when everybody is doing everything right shit happens (bikes blow up, critical parts fail), but i think it is incumbent on the club to provide the safest possible race environment they can. I can tell you for me, if that grid were to get much bigger, i'd simply do my 1 lap to get my points and not put myself out there if i felt that it was simply too crowded to be safe. i love racing, i love competing, but i still want to get home in one piece at the end of the day if i can, and at some point with the numbers approaching a very realistic grid size of 70+ riders, holy fuck that is a big grid, i don't care how much experience you have.

but i'd also be bummed as all get out if i did indeed choose to "opt out" after a lap because of safety concerns, because damn if that race wasn't the most transcendent motorcycle experience i've ever had...blasting down the front straight with the sun setting right in front of me at 7:30pm, weird orange alpenglow all over the fields adjacent to the track, seemingly utter silence and peace and tranquility, even through total exhaustion and fatigue, moving down the straight tucked in, machine, human, physics, environment, all in perfect harmony for 5-6 laps while the sun set...truly, truly amazing.

[hcr25]

See what happens, the first time i get pole position in a huge grid you cant even see me in the picture!

Chris, I am not saying they shouldnt be allowed. I know shit happens and I dont mind seeing a bike flipping through the air, as long as the rider walks away unhurt. I have crashed more then most in the club and a good crash could be awesome to watch.

Here is a question, why do we limit the number of novices that are allowed in a race? we have not done this for a few years now but if we had 50 show up tomorrow for novice gtu we would have heat races and only let 36 or what ever the number is race at once. If we let racers race, they hold the line blah blah blah. It should not be a problem how many are in the race right?

[rybo]

Here is a question, why do we limit the number of novices that are allowed in a race? we have not done this for a few years now but if we had 50 show up tomorrow for novice gtu we would have heat races and only let 36 or what ever the number is race at once. If we let racers race, they hold the line blah blah blah. It should not be a problem how many are in the race right?

Mike,

To answer this, a lot of it was done in the days that we raced at 2nd Creek and PPIR more becuase the tracks themselves are smaller. I'm not sure if was an AMA guideline or an insurance requirement, but only X number of bikes were allowed per linear mile of racetrack ( I don't know the number off the top of my head, but am sure that Glenn or Tony know). Pueblo and HPR being larger circuits more bikes are allowed on the track. We abided by this guideline for the 4 hour endurance in 2010 and will again in 2011.

s

[gixxermike]

See what happens, the first time i get pole position in a huge grid you cant even see me in the picture!


Dude I can see the orange of your left arm :lol:

[jmaher]

I see me. I think more pictures should be taken from the back of the grid.

Joe

[benfoxmra95]

you know that nervous/anxious feeling you get when your about to start a race? do you ever get that by just looking at pictures of a race or watching a race?

weird...

on a side note, for the novices, being nervous/anxious is completely normal and should be welcomed/embraced. this is your bodies preparation for "fight or flight" its a heightened state of being where adrenaline is being realeased and your nervous system is being primed for out of the ordinary situations where danger is involved. Under normal circumstances this feeling should melt away within a very short time after taking the green, and you be move into a relaxed state where your mind is fluid with your body. if you find that you are still in the nervous state for several laps or even the entire race you really need to work on relaxing, being overly "tweaked" during a race could cause over reaction.

ok, back to toting my apple laptop and looking at squiggly lines for insanely priced 4 wheeled german spec race cars.

[oldtimer]

I remember hearing about this race from Bart. And there he is on the very last row! :D

He said they ran out of cones to indicate grid rows and the back group just blobbed the starting grid.

[Bartman]

That is not a picture of the 4 hour, that was middle and light endurance from the last race but the point still stands of just how big the grids are. Part of the problem of the 4 hour launch was all one wave and it suprized the hell out of me when I was getting passed into the first corner as I was on the last row of the front grid.

[Throttleroller277]

That is not a picture of the 4 hour, that was middle and light endurance from the last race .

I was thinking the same thing, we didn't have all of the 250's at the 4 hr in 2010....but like you said... not the point

[Desmodromico]

The real question is if Ninjettes will be allowed to "Rollie"!

http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=284992

[nobasin]

sorry, my mistake on the pic. that is in fact mw/lw endurance from race 8.

[HAMMER]

That was a sweet race ... I was in the last row with b man ....I think I got like 12 th or somethin on a freekin duce fif ... I'm sure someone can look and see what I got .. but I never felt like I was over crowded .. I like having huge grids .. I remember my novice year having to heat race to start in the back of a 48 bike grid .... and finishing top 5 ... that's a lot of traffic ... good ol days ...

[HAMMER]

Oh and the " rollie." Looks like the ticket ...... hahaaaaa ..

[Scored51]

Anyone have an idea of the laptimes on some of the 250s during the mock races in 2010?

Now that it's been more than a month since this was asked (I read slowly), here are the numbers that were laid down. The fastest lap during the 250 demos was a 2:15.687 by Tracey Schram. Hammer pulled off the fastest lap the following day of 2:17.139. So the original estimate of 2:14 was a little optomistic. However, this is a record: not a pace.

The absolute track record at HPR is 1:44.354, while the fastest solo lap during the 3 hour race last year was twelve seconds of the pace at 1:56.975. In the team category it was almost six seconds off at 1:50.245. Again, these are the best; not the average and it indicates the extent of slowing the pace for 3 hours vs. an 11 minute sprint.

What the bulk of the lap times show in the 250 demo races is that transposed to the Lightweight GP or Twins GTU classes, the fast guys on 250's would have put most of the other bikes behind them. So should we not allow any lightweight bikes into the endurance?

Hope this makes is all clear as mud. Afterall, it's just statistics and they were meant to be manipulated.