Can 'fast' be taught?

[vort3xr6]

Okay, time to get our minds into some racing during this lengthy offseason.

Can 'fast' be taught, or is it an innate trait? There has been some decent discussions on other forums about it but I wanted to get Clarkie or Jon's view on the matter.

I personally think that fast cannot be taught. You can progress up to a certain level through instruction. But 'fast' is only attainable through natural talent.

Also, 'fast' is relative.

[gsnyder828]

Also, 'fast' is relative.

If fast is relative, then it can definitely be taught. 8)

If fast is finite - then it still may be able to be taught - just not to everyone. :wink:

[Desmodromico]

If you mean GP fast no, those guys have more talent in their big toe than I do in my whole body.

If you mean can someone get faster with coaching/practice then definitely yes, but everyone has a zenith in my opinion, some just much higher than others. Hoping I haven't hit mine already...

[Bartman]

I truly believe anybody can be taught anything but we all have things that we do better than others so yes fast can be taught but you have to have the innate ability from the outset to reach the top level. That is why you see abilitys in familys thru many generations and even genders.

[Snowman]

Like the sign says, "Speed's just a question of money. How fast you wanna go?"

Put a GP rider on a Vespa and you "might" have a fighting chance. I have to believe the equipment is at least 70%.

[OUTLAWD]

you can be taught technique and learn skills, but it takes something more to be able to put it all together and make it work for you at the highest level.

[JWinter]

Natural talent is something that helps you go fast...Faster! Anybody who is willing to put the time and effort into can be taught how to be fast.

Track time is important, if I could spend a couple days a week on the track turning laps, improving my set-up, technique, and knowledge; I would hope that I could get faster. But that all costs money and time. In order to have the extra money to get the track time, I need to work, which cuts down on my time! Kind of a vicious circle, but that is club racing. Then if I had the time and money, I would without a doubt spend money on racing instructors/tutors to help.

[Clarkie]

Put a GP rider on a Vespa and you "might" have a fighting chance. I have to believe the equipment is at least 70%.

Motorcycle racing (even at club level) is more mental than you might think.

I have seen riders overcome a money and horsepower deficit against a riders of equal ability, and win. I have also seen a 'club racer' beat two AMA riders (one who stood on an AMA Superstock podium in 2008) on equal equipment, sure the two AMA guy's cried about the club racer's 'local track knowledge' but that wasnt the case at all. I guess they just needed an excuse as to why they were beat heads up by a club racer who didnt have the same money in his bike.

[vort3xr6]

Put a GP rider on a Vespa and you "might" have a fighting chance. I have to believe the equipment is at least 70%.

Motorcycle racing (even at club level) is more mental than you might think.

I have seen riders overcome a money and horsepower deficit against a riders of equal ability, and win. I have also seen a 'club racer' beat two AMA riders (one who stood on an AMA Superstock podium in 2008) on equal equipment, sure the two AMA guy's cried about the club racer's 'local track knowledge' but that wasnt the case at all. I guess they just needed an excuse as to why they were beat heads up by a club racer who didnt have the same money in his bike.

Can that mental aspect be taught? Or is it a natural ability?

[Clarkie]

The mental aspect can most definitely be taught, a lot of sports people have 'developed' the mental aspect of their game.

Sure to some the mental side is natural, but yeah it can also be taught pretty easily. You just have to know what makes a racer (or in fact any sports person) tick and what feeds their motivation, then figure out the way to build on that. Every rider/sports person is different and walking around the pits you will see different riders getting ready for a race in different ways, ST used to sign autographs, I would pick my nose then shake his hand...... :D

A good platform (well running bike, equipment, support in the pits) is important, but dont discount the mental side of racing. Far many riders do, you should read some of Mat Mladin's opinions on the way other racers in the AMA paddock went about their weekend. The psychology of people in sports is really interesting.

[benfoxmra95]

Like the sign says, "Speed's just a question of money. How fast you wanna go?"

Haha....ok bubbazanetti, you want your hand back?

The toecutter and Johnny the boy are heading out to off one of the "bronze"

[benfoxmra95]

I have formulated a theory on this subject.

I'm a fairly observative person, more than the average person(at least Id like to think so :).....). And I've spent my fair share of time with novice,average,expert, and real professional racers. I've gotten to be good friends with a pro. And the weird thing is that how normal the pro (Pegram) is. I mean he eats the same crap we do, sleeps the same way, trains no harder than the average club rider, he's really a pretty average human. So much so that I can forget what he does for a living.

Then when I see him on the bike it's a amazing, he can do things that are just amazing to you and I. So whats with this type of person? Why can he ride a bike at that level and I can't? Why can't he ride at spies or Rossi level? Good question

Here my answer:

1. dexterity, these guys have extremely good dexterity in thief hands, thy can feel things that most people wouldn't.

2. spatial orientation. Thier perception of space and time around them. Especially when they are moving through it at speed. This is a lengthy topic. You can do your own research.

3. electrical wiring, this is how well their nervous systems are wired and ability to carry signals to and from the brain. Sorry these guys are wired genetically a little better. Their wiring carries signals just a little bit faster than us.

4. pentium 8 core processor brain.....this goes hand in hand with the nervous system, their brains have a massive ability to take in a large amount of info and process it very quickly. Not much explanation needed here. But everyday in normal life as you know and perceive is in slow motion to how a pro rider percieves it. When info is sent to them at high speed and then things start to seem a normal pace to them.

I'm more on the science side of what makes them tick, I don't believe it can be taught. Unless you can clone yourself and reprogram your DNA.

People alway use the word talent (ohhh hes got so much talent!...)but, truly what is talent? I believe talent is your genetic make up and what it's suited best for on this planet.

The above opinion is merely that, I make no claims of scientific proof to back this up, it's just my observation. :)

[vort3xr6]

^^^ Well said. I agree with all of it.

We all are wired a little different from the normal person. The fact that we can maintain composure at over 100mph with our knee on the ground constantly scanning for anomalies in traction, is impressive. But most of us just can't do it at the level and intensity that the pros can.

[Clarkie]

I agree with you a lot of what you said about Larry, Ben. But one of the the things I taught myself was to slow things down mentally (cue all the being a bit 'slow' jokes :D ) and that is spatial orientation.

Once I learned how to do this, I became more mentally aware of things going on around me while racing. The tires, suspension, motor, grip, what people were wearing on the side lines etc. I figured out a way to slow it all down, and use my time on the seat to look at other things rather than just brake, lean, accelerate etc.

Dexterity sure, some people are just more co-ordinated than others, but hey, if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball!

For sure, some racers it is natural ability, but I think to some level it can be taught.

[spideyrdr]

I look at "taught" vs. innate in these ways.

1) Observe a new street rider. At first all of us were careful almost to the point of being timid. Starts at a green light were slow and metered. We probably stopped a little jerky and not at all smooth for the first few weeks. Then we got better and faster. Some street riders get up to speed faster and some hit a wall (not literally) and are content riding at a slower, steady pace even on a sportbike. Then there are riders who use their instincts to continue to learn and ride faster, better, and longer on the street.

2) I'll use a baseball analogy here. I know how to throw a curve ball. I understand the concepts and can get a little break on it. So I have learned the basics. But I don't throw anything like a professional pitcher. I could practice and practice and would never have the rotation and velocity to get a wicked curve ball. Learning how to throw got me started, practice helped me improve, but you can only get so far with it. Pros have abilities that I can't fathom. And my efforts to learn and practice will likely hit a wall before I am anywhere close to them.

So, I would hypothesize that we ALL have the ability to learn to ride fastr. It is the built-in wiring that drives a rider to LEARN to ride faster, either through formal avenues or through practice. In the end, though, things like teaching methods, the ability to practice, and the determination to put those two elements together lead to a wall eventually. New training concepts might help a plateaued rider go faster. But it would be unlikely they would wake up one day and spontaneously drop 5 seconds per lap.

Just like you wouldn't wake up one day and start throwing a nasty curve ball.

All opinions expressed here are free. Guaranteed to work or your money back!

Jamie

[T Baggins]

I'm a perfect example of it being an innate, natural ability.

I'm old, getting fatter by the day, I won't exercise, absolutely REFUSE to practice ('cause it's for cheaters) I eat too much red meat, drink entirely too much, don't work on my bikes except on raceday (if even then...), change my fork oil every 7 years whether it needs it or not, use the same set of tires for an entire season, and my pre-race regimen involves lots of excedrine migrane, and riding around the pits making sure everyone else is having a good time.

There is no good reason in God's green earth that I should be able to ride a motorcycle at all, much less do it reasonably well.

I'm by no means saying I'm "fast". What I'm saying that you couldn't be less committed to "going fast" than I am, and even so I still get around pretty damn well. That's innate, no doubt about it.

Could I improve and "learn" to be faster if I took it seriously? We'll probably never know...

[Clarkie]

You can always teach fast, to be faster :wink:

[sheispoison]

I agree with Clarkie 100% with the slowing things down theory. One of the most helpful pieces of advice I got all season last year was from Shane Turpin telling me to slow down all your movements on the bike. Slow and smooth roll-on the gas, ease into the brakes and the most helpful was slow down all of the transitions in weight (going from side to side handing off). It changed the way I rode the bike and put me on the podium! I agree with some of the other guys, fast maybe can't get taught, but faster can.
carl

[T Baggins]

Seriously though, I think the "things happening in slo mo" is the difference for most people. I've always raced in "slo mo" in my mind, and it amazes me how much time seems available to make decisions on the racetrack. You might triple guess something before doing it - but it happens in the fraction of an instant.

What I've found is that some people are able to "keep things in slo mo" even when the crap hits the fan - those are the guys who work thru things and get fast. When things speed back up to "real time" that's when bad things happen - panic sets in, and you fall down.

Can you teach the ability to keep things in slo mo? I would guess not.

[dragos13]

Fast can definitely be taught.

The question is, can fast be "learned" lol

:)

Basically, Clarkie can teach "fast" but can Brad (or whoever) learn and apply it?!?!?

[vort3xr6]

For my first year of racing ever I think I learned a fair amount on my own. Having instruction would be a luxury to have but unfortunately it costs a lot of money.

I am thankful I have at least a minor amount of talent to put a bike on the podium multiple times in my first season. That said, I don't consider myself fast, and I am wondering whether or not instruction could really cure that.

[JWinter]

One thing that I thought should be included here in the thread is this: We are Americans...We want it bigger, faster, better, and we want it right now! We have thrown out names like: Rossi, Hayden, Spies, Mladin, and Pegram. Yes, these guys are fast now..Did that happen overnight? Did Rossi start to master his craft on a 1000cc super bike? Spies didn't hop onto a 600 one afternoon and win an AMA title. No, these guys all started on small bore bikes and put years into making themselves fast. I don't know all of Clarkie's history, but I do know he told me that he raced 250 GP's.

Spies, and the Haydens all raced 125's, 250's and the Haydens raced flat track too. Rossi started on mini's then moved to something like 80cc or something. Just remember that going fast is mental, but it is alot easier to get used to the speed when you don't have any power or weight.

So here is my point...You want to go fast then put together a plan on an appropriate platform that will allow you to grow. Don't be concerned about the now, but the future. Be realistic with yourself. Which means you might have to drop your pride and get off the 600cc or 1000cc bike that you truly can't ride. Maybe jumping onto a 50 hp bike is going to help you more. You won't be fast with power, until you are fast without power.

Jeff

[AdamandNoahsdad]

Just figured I would throw in my 2 cents on this topic. I have twin 13 year old boys. They have both been racing Supermoto for a couple of years now and last year we raced with the guys at Rocky Mountain Mini Moto. They have both been in the same number of races and both enjoy racing. Obviously, they have both grown up in the same enviroment and even though one of them is 5 inches taller than the other one, they are still twins. (Obviously,they are not identical). One of my kids is definately more driven to go faster than the other one. They both ride well, but the one pushes himself much harder to try and be faster. The other one can be just as fast when he is in the mood, but doesn't have the drive that the short one has. Only occasionally will the taller one put in the effort to go fast and he has proven to be fast enough to really give his brother fits. Usually the shorter one can pass and lap him at will. I just figured I would throw that out just to add to the discussion.

[jmaher]

Just figured I would throw in my 2 cents on this topic. I have twin 13 year old boys. They have both been racing Supermoto for a couple of years now and last year we raced with the guys at Rocky Mountain Mini Moto. They have both been in the same number of races and both enjoy racing. Obviously, they have both grown up in the same enviroment and even though one of them is 5 inches taller than the other one, they are still twins. (Obviously,they are not identical). One of my kids is definately more driven to go faster than the other one. They both ride well, but the one pushes himself much harder to try and be faster. The other one can be just as fast when he is in the mood, but doesn't have the drive that the short one has. Only occasionally will the taller one put in the effort to go fast and he has proven to be fast enough to really give his brother fits. Usually the shorter one can pass and lap him at will. I just figured I would throw that out just to add to the discussion.

I would think this would be a difference in will and drive rather than talent. I am convinced that there is someone playing in the NBA that has more talent than Jordan but not the the same drive and desire (or something) to show the talent.

Joe